Found Alive UT - Holly Suzanne Courtier, 38, Zion National Park, 6 Oct 2020

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K9Enzo

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I stated many pages ago even when hikers do risky things, make poor choices, go unprepared, etc. I want them to be rescued, I want them to recover and live. I’m not a fan of charging the person for the rescue even and gave reasons why. I am in favor of fines/tickets if park policy was broken. That’s up to Zion to decide based on their info fact gathering.

I personally don’t think this was a scam or an false attempt to get donations. I will gladly eat crow if I’m wrong. I have negative opinions on G*M in general, when you ask for donations, you invite the public in. Many will feel vested. I always think you donate at your own risk. I am always amazed at the good folks who will donate, maybe even when they don’t really have much to give. If there was any fraud here, I suppose G*M will investigate, maybe LE as well.

I sincerely wish Holly well. I have no clue about her mental state but remembering questioning it at the very beginning, with many others.

Maybe her own family doesn’t even realize what they are reporting sounds absurd.

I think it’s possible HC wanted to step out of her life and left. Maybe she wanted away from every single person she loves even. I do think you have to be somewhat clear headed to drive from California to Utah, especially somewhere as specific as Zion. Maybe when she realized they were looking for her, she felt like she was in too deep, she knew she would have to answer some questions about what the heck was going on to both officials and her family, then we have the start of one lie after another instead of just saying what happened. Or, she believes what she’s saying. No clue. That’s as far as I’ll go, I believe, with the potential mental health side of this.

IMO
 

gitana1

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I’m thinking technology will play a role in this investigation. Recovering deleted Facebook posts, text messages, etc will probably greatly aid their search for the truth.

But I don’t think the authorities are doing any of that. The case is closed for them. Except for being aggravated by hearing information that appears to likely be embellished.
 

gitana1

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Lavender bolding mine
Great post.
I have more thoughts about it but will comment later.
Wasn't she found by a hammock ?
Whose hammock was that ?


With all of the money the family gleaned from the crowd funding-- they should have been able to afford ambulance costs.
And wouldn't there have been one on site where the command center was for the searchers, once it was ascertained that she was found ?
That would be more logical, imo.

I think the LE official who spoke explained it so well. She never would’ve been left to leave on her own like that if she was in as bad condition as the family is stating. And she wouldn’t be able to walk at all without water for all those days. There’s just no way.

Perhaps the family truly doesn’t understand any of this (how impossible the story is) and is buying the story. But the official who spoke should make that clear to them now. Maybe they should just stop speaking. They’re making it worse.
 

mrstfs

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Nope, but looks so perfectly done. Agree with a poster above, is this a "simulated" photo by CBS? It has no source on the screen. Also, I thought an early report said that she didn't realize how long she had been in the park.

I must have incorrect recollection on such.

View attachment 268762

Watch CBS This Morning: Missing hiker's sister on her survival - Full show on CBS All Access

ETA: Another post said another article gave credit to Holly for these photos

There’s a newer article today that includes all of the photos and says “courtesy of Holly Courtier”. -> Sister of missing Zion hiker says her survival without food and water was 'a miracle'
 

gitana1

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To clarify, I have no opinions about that case or whether any portion of it was a scam. However, I have never seen an official verified report of how the 70K was distributed. In my opinion, there should be a verifiable accounting of this. For this case and all like it.

It’s a charity. I don’t think it’s typical for the fund organizers to give public accountings of what happened with the funds.

“The Trust and Safety team inside works with key stakeholders, including government officials, to ensure that funds raised on the platform are verified and that they go to the cause for which the money is being raised.”

Craig Fugate
former FEMA Administator

I can’t link to that because it’s from the site. But that’s according to the charity.

I kind of think if you’re going to state that people are getting a cash windfall from monies slated for a search, it’s your obligation to prove that allegation, not the other way around.

People who donate and have questions can ask. And if they believe the funds aren’t going to what they donated for, they can ask for a refund and will get it.

The rest of us don’t have to donate.

But in this country, health care expenses can be life altering- especially for people without a job or insurance.

I think it’s awful that people have to beg for help with things like that, in such a rich country.
 

Seni

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Just a reminder of the toxic bloom situation and its effects even if you do not directly drink the contaminated water:

Toxic Cyanobacteria Bloom in the Virgin River and the Streams of Zion National Park - Zion National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

"Even very small pieces of the cyanobacterial growth may contain enough anatoxin-a to cause medical emergencies. These pieces of bacteria may be hard to see or even invisible.

Children and dogs are especially susceptible to being exposed to anatoxin-a. Anatoxin-a can be absorbed through the eyes, nose, or mouth by swimming in or submerging accidentally or unknowingly into contaminated water. Symptoms include skin rash, salivation, drowsiness, tingling, burning, numbness, pain, incoherent speech, seizures, vomiting, and diarrhea".
 

24Brix

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With all of the money the family gleaned from the crowd funding-- they should have been able to afford ambulance costs.
And wouldn't there have been one on site where the command center was for the searchers, once it was ascertained that she was found ?
That would be more logical, imo.
In my suburban neighborhood we’ve had two emergency evacuations so far this year. Ambulance transport for an elderly neighbor with shortness of breath to our local general hospital 3 miles away ($1500) and a Med-Evac helicopter ride for a 6 year-old girl with head and neck injuries from a bicycle accident to a shock-trauma center 40 miles away ($30,000).

Medicare covered the elderly neighbor’s trip. The little girl’s parents were (and still are) both unemployed and uninsured due to COVID. They were able to make up $12k of that $30k evac on a $$$-site through the kindness of friends, family, and strangers. And they still have several hundred thousand dollars in uninsured medical expenses for her care that must be addressed.

Suffice it to say, if HC’s family felt it to be more reasonable to transport her themselves, and if on-site medical personnel approved it, who am I to judge?

Do I think there’s more to the story than we currently know? Well sure... I suspect this was essentially a vision quest gone awry. A cleansing process. A purification. Maybe some altered states. She was in the park without a back-country permit and was prepared for several days but not for twelve. She had an accident, got busted, and now is in CYA mode. Stuff happens.

I do 5- to 7-day water fasts 3 or 4 times a year. And I’ve gone longer. I know what they feel like. (Which is to say, “not much” after the first 48 hours. It’s really, really easy to just keep going. But you do need to be careful with the re-feeding process if you go more than 72 hours.)

The thing that rings least true to me about the story is the sharpie marks. That’s such a theatrical detail.

But you know what? I don’t really care. A person was missing for whatever reason. Now they’re found. That’s why I came to WS in the first place.

<modsnip>

MOO, like almost everything I post.
 
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Coffiecat

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<modsnip: Referenced post was removed>

Sgt Cashin seems a little too eager to share his doubts, from a professional LE/SAR liaison. IMSLTHO

"Minimal assistance", was this after SAR tended to her? A little fresh water, reassuring voices, maybe an IV or sugary drink? There is a LOT of 2nd hand and paraphrased commentary involved in the case.

First responders and loved ones, may not see the condition of a survivor of an ordeal, identically.

Head injury was early on, and may have been enough to disorient her until weakness from fasting and dehydration took over?

Survival quantities of water are well below some of the hyperbolized commentary. Especially if the person isn't doing much moving about. Not digesting food reduces need, as well.

The river toxicity at that exact spot didn't appear to be mentioned, but areas of very high levels were noted. As were some not far beyond "healthy", and some within safe range. The dog that died had stirred up and ate chunks of algae.

Mental health may be a factor in this. We are facing some unusually trying times, and many people are handling it in many different ways. The myopic "Suck it up" mentality in large part explains the hesitance to seek mental health and substance abuse help.

Certainties of the case:
She was missing.
People were concerned.
She was found. Alive.
She has people helping her get the aftercare she needs.
 
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gitana1

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Just saw Inside Edition. Reports that river water was contaminated. Her sister says she drank no water because she knew it was contaminated. You can't go more than 2 or 3 days without water.

Yeah. That’s plainly impossible for her to have had no water source.

It feels to me like she and the family are embarrassed so she made something up and they’re not questioning it.

But quite telling to me is the statement by one of them that: “It was blown way out of proportion.” Or something to that effect. And then she goes on to explain that they never said HC was drinking from the river.

That’s sort of a slap in the face to all who worried for this woman and/or searched.
 

Seni

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gitana1

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In my suburban neighborhood we’ve had two emergency evacuations so far this year. Ambulance transport for an elderly neighbor with shortness of breath to our local general hospital 3 miles away ($1500) and a Med-Evac helicopter ride for a 6 year-old girl with head and neck injuries from a bicycle accident to a shock-trauma center 40 miles away ($30,000).

Medicare covered the elderly neighbor’s trip. The little girl’s parents were (and still are) both unemployed and uninsured due to COVID. They were able to make up $12k of that $30k evac on a $$$-site through the kindness of friends, family, and strangers. And they still have several hundred thousand dollars in uninsured medical expenses for her care that must be addressed.

Suffice it to say, if HC’s family felt it to be more reasonable to transport her themselves, and if on-site medical personnel approved it, who am I to judge?

Do I think there’s more to the story than we currently know? Well sure... I suspect this was essentially a vision quest gone awry. A cleansing process. A purification. Maybe some altered states. She was in the park without a back-country permit and was prepared for several days but not for twelve. She had an accident, got busted, and now is in CYA mode. Stuff happens.

I do 5- to 7-day water fasts 3 or 4 times a year. And I’ve gone longer. I know what they feel like. (Which is to say, “not much” after the first 48 hours. It’s really, really easy to just keep going. But you do need to be careful with the re-feeding process if you go more than 72 hours.)

The thing that rings least true to me about the story is the sharpie marks. That’s such a theatrical detail.

But you know what? I don’t really care. A person was missing for whatever reason. Now they’re found. That’s why I came to WS in the first place.

<modsnip>

MOO, like almost everything I post.

You can go without water for 5-7 days?
 
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MaryG12

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You can go without water for 5-7 days?

I thought it was 3 days max the human body can go without water.

Did you know the human brain and heart is made up of 73% water?

And human lungs are made up of 83% water?

Moreover - that water is incredibly important for proper brain functioning? And kidney functioning?


The Water in You: Water and the Human Body
 

gitana1

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She probably let them know after she was on the road. Or, perhaps, she had to give contact information to the place where she left her van (if she took a shuttle, she probably had to check in at the hotels where people park and take the shuttles).

I thought all along she seemed to be having mental problems - it's just the feeling I get from some of her photos, her recent interest in "spirituality," her two trips within weeks to Zion (!) and her apparent belief that Zion had some spiritual significance. Now we also know about the fasting (and not drinking!)

The only time I've seen that, frankly, is in schizophrenics, schizotypals and schizoaffective people. It's actually rather common in that group (the delusional belief that not eating and not drinking will get them closer to God - or that they will become a holy person - or even somehow become divine themselves, proving it to the world by transcending the need to eat and drink).

This isn't just in our culture, but it is recurrent among those with the genes for a schizo-type disorder. Of course, Bipolar can play all these same games with the mind, and that would be consistent with sudden plans to tour the US via National Park. She already knew they wouldn't let her van into the park, though (if she'd just been there - although I'm not at all sure I trust that info, either).

It all sounds like mania to me. Common with bi polar, no?

The two things that cause psychosis (both independent of one another and in combination) are lack of water and lack of sleep.
 

mrstfs

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Then what did she drink? As I've said before, if she'd truly had no water, she would be dead.

The sister's comments appear to be based on what HC said, which would imply that HC is either misremembering or misstating what she did. Sgt. Cashin has pointed out that HC's water source could not have been the north fork of the Virgin River, which apparently was where she was located and which may have been where she said she marked the days on a tree with a Sharpie. So again the question arises, what water did she drink? Was she there the whole time, or was she somewhere else?

JMO

This is a great question, IMHO. How did she live for 12 days with no water? In the Today show article, her sister says it’s “a miracle from God”. https://www.today.com/news/sister-missing-zion-hiker-speaks-about-her-ordeal-her-mental-t195709

H
er sister also brought up mental health, which I absolutely agree should not be a taboo subject. But why then double down and say that she lived for 12 days with no water and it’s a miracle from God? I don’t know, every being said feels like it has an angle to it.

I guess we’ll see if HC starts up a church. :p
 
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