VA VA - Claudine Gifford, 43, White Stone, 6 July 2014 *GUILTY*

[OkieGranny]

First I've heard of four guys. I would also like to know who this info came from.

They're asking on the Bring Claudine Home page if anyone saw her car between 6pm on July 6 and 8am on July 7:

And because my other image host is out of bandwidth for the month, another pic of Claudine:

 

[TravelingBug]

The Lancaster County Sheriff’s Office is interested in speaking with four white males reported to have assisted Claudine J. Gifford from the Tiki Bar at Windmill Point into a silver Nissan SUV on July 6. These 4 males are asked to contact Lt. E.T. Self or Inv. D.S. Hogge at the sheriff’s office, 804-462-5111.

What the heck?!

Where did these 4 dudes come from?

And what happened to TK carrying her out? Was that all made up? (Meaning the witnesses in the bar were all lying or incorrect? Which probably then calls into question if TK was even there or if she was even there never mind how much drinking was or was not happening...)

Is TK actually ONE of the FOUR?

Or did these characters come along after that since TK left an apparently entirely intoxicated person who couldn't even walk and had to be carried out at the end of a road?

That seems impossible given this article is definitely stating that THEY helped her out of the bar and into a vehicle. So doesn't that mean there is no way TK did? We know there's nothing saying what TK did after supposedly carrying her out of the Tiki Bar from the earlier accounts, but this seems to be contradicting that he even did that. So again, then what about the reports that it was TK who at least helped her out and to the road/lot area?

Had they been inside and witnesses to everything and then took advantage of an apparently vulnerable woman?

Or were they well-intentioned and took her away from there since she seemed to not have any way of getting there but then something happened wherever they may have taken her?

Or did they just happen by and see all of this? Also seems impossible since again, this seems to definitively say THEY were in there and helped her out...but again, then what does that do w/ the TK version unless he's 1 of the 4?

If they know enough to know so many specifics about the vehicle the four were in, plus that they were all WMAs, it seems like they would likely have at least a partial plate.

Besides, it's a darn small area around there - how many silver Nissan SUVs are there around there?

Surprising to me it's not been tracked down, unless they're doing this trying to force them out yet already knowing who they are...

You'd think surely they'd at least have sniffed out anyone TK knows well or even just associates with to see if any of them drive or have access to a vehicle of that description.

 

[TravelingBug]

First I've heard of four guys. I would also like to know who this info came from.

Admittedly I'm wondering if TK might have tried to plant this?

It's SO contradictory of everything earlier about him carrying her out and being the last to see her (which obviously makes him look really bad...)

Though I'm also wondering if there's video and that's where this is now coming from?

Because that could explain why there's specifics on them all being WMAs, and a number of vehicle specifics, yet none of that had come out earlier because they had been going on the earlier account?

But really the whole contradiction of what was said earlier doesn't line up with this unless TK is one of the 4 (which is clearly NOT what the investigator said - as they did not mention his name, yet he's been named already by them) bothers me...

Gifford was last seen at Pelican’s at the Point beachfront tiki bar at Windmill Point in the early evening on Sunday, July 6. The bar manager said Gifford had a “couple of drinks,” and sat on a railing to watch the band that was playing that afternoon. Witnesses told police Gifford had to be carried out by her male companion, Todd Kessler, that evening. Kessler was the last to see her on the road at the entrance to Windmill Point, police said.

And this:

The Lancaster County Sheriff’s Office is interested in speaking with four white males reported to have assisted Claudine J. Gifford from the Tiki Bar at Windmill Point into a silver Nissan SUV on July 6. These 4 males are asked to contact Lt. E.T. Self or Inv. D.S. Hogge at the sheriff’s office, 804-462-5111.

Obviously don't line up.

And with an essentially ENTIRELY inexperienced in missing persons cases sheriff agency leading this, things like this make me even more concerned...

 

[TravelingBug]

Perplexed about the latest from the Bring Claudine Home page:

I AM NOT ASKING, I AM TELLING ANYONE WHO POSTS ANYTHING BESIDES FACTS, WILL BE BLOCKED FROM THIS PAGE. EVERYONE KNOWS THE DETAILS SURROUNDING CLAUDINE'S DISAPEARANCE AND IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO SPECULATE AT THIS POINT.

If ONLY facts are allowed, and the details surrounding her disappearance are supposedly known by everyone, what are they even wanting posted?

Or why don't they turn off comments and only whoever is running it post things?

Frankly I think one of the ONLY "facts" is that Claudine is missing, and then that she was last seen in the Tiki Bar.

There's not even agreement on how she got OUT of the Tiki Bar, let alone ANYTHING after that...

They're talking about being glad an article is out so they can talk about it (the one naming TK and saying he was last seen w/ her)

But then they've posted the new one about the SUV (actually they mentioned that vehicle a few days before I saw it) but now the SUV and the 4 guys.

So now everyone's talking about that.

Yet no one is asking what seems like it should be the obvious question...was he one of the four?

Or then how did they change so much account wise and being glad that the story about TK came out so they could talk about it, but now going the direction of the four?

 

[TravelingBug]

Mostly about her husband coming up to look for her and be there (though the poor daughter if she's home alone w/out her dad too...?)

Rich and Claudine have a 15-year old daughter who is in Florida using the internet to track the search for her mother closely.

“I think the reality of it all is beginning to come into play for her,” Gifford said.

I wonder if someone was ticked that she went to Florida (and may possibly have been planning to return there - depending on which account we go by!) and that's what is behind this? Anger she was leaving? Anger thinking she might go back to her husband and daughter?

The timing just seems interesting given her very recent return from there...

 

[TravelingBug]

Interestingly, the end of THIS story:

Gif*ford was last seen around 830 Sun*day evening as she was leav*ing Wind*mill Point Marina. If you have any infor*ma*tion regard*ing the July 6th dis*ap*pear*ance of Gif*ford or the where*abouts or inden*ti*ties of the four men, you are asked to call Lan*caster Crime Solvers at 462‑7463 or the Lan*caster County Sheriff’s office at 462–51-11.

That seems to indicate that TK is NOT one of the four, doesn't it?

 

[helpfulcharlie]

From today's not-necessarily-related Media Dispatch from Lancaster County Sheriff's Office... bolded by me, because Red Fox Lane is off of Cox Farm Road, which was one of the search areas and the area of the residence of Claudine's companion. Hope someone is following up and checking things out properly:

July 19 Staff responded with VSP to a hit and run traffic crash on Windmill Point Road (med-evac involved);
responded to a domestic disturbance in the 4,200 block of Windmill Point Road; responded to a noise violation
complaint in the 1,300 block of Irvington Road (approximately 60 people at a party; shots fired in the area);
responded to assist Middlesex authorities with a domestic disturbance call on Butler Lane; checked on the well-
being of a Keep Safe program participant after prearranged telephone contact could not be made (no emergency
services needed); received a commercial burglary report from the 18,500 block of Mary Ball Road (22 self-
storage units broken into; unknown property losses at this time); responded with VSP to a 3 vehicle traffic crash
near the Dreamfields ball park; received a complaint of a coyote living in the area of Shelton Drive; received a
destruction of property report from a Rocky Neck Road property owner (right rear door and quarter panel of a
2011 Ford Expedition damaged while parked on Clark Road; $1,000 loss); responded to Red Fox Lane on a
report of a suspicious foul odor in the area; checked on the well-being of a Keep Safe program participant after
prearranged telephone contact could not be made (telephone line problem); responded to a traffic complaint on
Weems Road; responded to a noise violation complaint on Corrotoman Drive; responded to a noise violation
and unlawful fireworks complaint in the area of Heron Cove; responded to the area of Old Point Road on an
unlawful fireworks complaint; encountered a fight while making a routine patrol of the Windmill Point area
(arrest reported on July 20).

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

wow, good find helpfulcharlie. I have nothing helpful to add but am keeping this story in my thoughts.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Also, today is Claudine's birthday. It'd be a good day for a break in this case.

 

[musicman]

What the heck?!

Where did these 4 dudes come from?

And what happened to TK carrying her out? Was that all made up? (Meaning the witnesses in the bar were all lying or incorrect? Which probably then calls into question if TK was even there or if she was even there never mind how much drinking was or was not happening...)

Is TK actually ONE of the FOUR?

Or did these characters come along after that since TK left an apparently entirely intoxicated person who couldn't even walk and had to be carried out at the end of a road?

That seems impossible given this article is definitely stating that THEY helped her out of the bar and into a vehicle. So doesn't that mean there is no way TK did? We know there's nothing saying what TK did after supposedly carrying her out of the Tiki Bar from the earlier accounts, but this seems to be contradicting that he even did that. So again, then what about the reports that it was TK who at least helped her out and to the road/lot area?

Had they been inside and witnesses to everything and then took advantage of an apparently vulnerable woman?

Or were they well-intentioned and took her away from there since she seemed to not have any way of getting there but then something happened wherever they may have taken her?

Or did they just happen by and see all of this? Also seems impossible since again, this seems to definitively say THEY were in there and helped her out...but again, then what does that do w/ the TK version unless he's 1 of the 4?

If they know enough to know so many specifics about the vehicle the four were in, plus that they were all WMAs, it seems like they would likely have at least a partial plate.

Besides, it's a darn small area around there - how many silver Nissan SUVs are there around there?

Surprising to me it's not been tracked down, unless they're doing this trying to force them out yet already knowing who they are...

You'd think surely they'd at least have sniffed out anyone TK knows well or even just associates with to see if any of them drive or have access to a vehicle of that description.

It would appear that TK drives the silver SUV and the 4 are being sought as witnesses to putting her in the vehicle.

 

[derbreu73]

Great info, thanks for sharing that! I forwarded this info on to the people who are searching for her. We all hope for the best possible outcome but something that Morgan Harrington's family said always sticks with me when I read about a missing person...that the not knowing was worse than the knowing, once they found Morgan. I hope that this family gets some answers very soon either way.

 

[TravelingBug]

It would appear that TK drives the silver SUV and the 4 are being sought as witnesses to putting her in the vehicle.

Possibly, but it's definitely NOT what any earlier accounts said.

So that means that ALL the witnesses are wrong, changed their stories, or are REALLY not observant.

This is the earlier information:

Gifford was last seen at Pelican’s at the Point beachfront tiki bar at Windmill Point in the early evening on Sunday, July 6. The bar manager said Gifford had a “couple of drinks,” and sat on a railing to watch the band that was playing that afternoon. Witnesses told police Gifford had to be carried out by her male companion, Todd Kessler, that evening. Kessler was the last to see her on the road at the entrance to Windmill Point, police said.

Definitely does NOT say that there were others assisting him in getting her out.

Additionally, and more significantly (IMO) then it also means that POLICE are contradicting themselves now.

I mean the above specifically states that witnesses stated that TK (him specifically, NOT a group) carried her out, and POLICE have said specifically stated that TK was the last to see her AND that it was on the road at the entrance, not that TK actually took her anywhere in a vehicle.

I guess the could have just received additional information and that the earlier information is wrong.

However, I don't see how that's very likely since I would think they would HAVE to correct the statements that essentially implicate SOLELY TK since they earlier (as seen above) specifically HE carried her out and HE was the last to see her AND it was on the road at the entrance (and not in a vehicle)

The Lancaster County Sheriff’s Office is interested in speaking with four white males reported to have assisted Claudine J. Gifford from the Tiki Bar at Windmill Point into a silver Nissan SUV on July 6. These 4 males are asked to contact Lt. E.T. Self or Inv. D.S. Hogge at the sheriff’s office, 804-462-5111.

I just don't see how that doesn't all contradict itself.

 

[musicman]

Possibly, but it's definitely NOT what any earlier accounts said.

So that means that ALL the witnesses are wrong, changed their stories, or are REALLY not observant.

This is the earlier information:



Definitely does NOT say that there were others assisting him in getting her out.

Additionally, and more significantly (IMO) then it also means that POLICE are contradicting themselves now.

I mean the above specifically states that witnesses stated that TK (him specifically, NOT a group) carried her out, and POLICE have said specifically stated that TK was the last to see her AND that it was on the road at the entrance, not that TK actually took her anywhere in a vehicle.

I guess the could have just received additional information and that the earlier information is wrong.

However, I don't see how that's very likely since I would think they would HAVE to correct the statements that essentially implicate SOLELY TK since they earlier (as seen above) specifically HE carried her out and HE was the last to see her AND it was on the road at the entrance (and not in a vehicle)



I just don't see how that doesn't all contradict itself.

Since the Tiki bar and the parking lot are two different locations, the report that 4 people helped her into a vehicle is not inconsistent.

 

[TravelingBug]

Since the Tiki bar and the parking lot are two different locations, the report that 4 people helped her into a vehicle is not inconsistent.

I guess I'm very thick headed at the moment. I'm truly not trying to be difficult, I just can't reconcile this (obviously)

TK carrying vs. 4 people assisting her out of the bar is not the same, is it? In mode (carrying vs. assisting) or in quantity (TK vs. 4 people)

Especially because if one assumes there were 4 NOT including him (based on what people have said above and how I'd read the newest request for info) why did they say it was TK who carried her out to begin with? And how does absolutely no one seem to know who the 4 are?

And if one reads it as TK was one of the 4, then how do 3 get overlooked by witnesses who had said TK was who carried her out.

Plus earlier when it said TK was the last to see her and that it was on the road. On the road is very different than in a car (at least to me).

Either they blatantly omitted saying that TK was last seen putting her in a vehicle and driving off with her earlier (which makes no sense to me) or else that seems like an entirely different scenario.

That's quite a crucial detail to not let people know of. Since that means the first several weeks of this that did NOT mention leaving in a car, it also DID NOT mention anything description wise about a car, which would be huge (IMO).

And if TK (per police, which had to have come from witnesses, doesn't it?) was the last to see her on the road, why did the witnesses (or whomever had given police the information that led them to state that TK was last to see her on the road) not also say 4 helped her into a silver SUV?

The only way I see that all mostly reconciling is if:

Initially they knew (based on witness statements):
*TK was seen carrying her out of the bar
*TK last saw her on the road
*TK was also the last to see her

Then they learned (from somewhere)
*4 guys were see helping her into the silver SUV (which was some time after TK last saw her on the road, meaning the SUV may or may not have been his based on him having returned, but also that he wouldn't have been the last to see her)

But the that also means:
*Something doesn't line up with how she GOT to the car anymore - b/c it either went from one person (TK) carrying her to 4 (but likely 5 since otherwise how does TK fit into it?) assisting her out.
*How does that not compromise witness statements?
*How does that not contradict TK last seeing her on the road, with now apparently it being seeing her drive away.

Heck, have we even been told TK drives (or has access to) a silver SUV? I truly don't recall at this point.

Yet if he does, why would they not have said that weeks ago so people would have remembered if they had seen THAT somewhere and if so where? Weeks into it there's both less interest in the case and less clear recollection of details, IMO.

What about the guys? Where did they go to after that?

They don't live in a huge area. Yet there were 4 guys who apparently were AT the Tiki Bar hanging out for the concert but no one seems to know who they are? Otherwise why would LE not go to them instead of asking for them to come forward?

If witnesses were observant enough to remember her departure and who was involved enough to name TK and to recall her being carried initially, how could the same people apparently not be able to describe the 4 enough for LE to release more details to help get them ID'd? And if it came from video, then wouldn't there still be more description?

I don't know...

Like I said, not trying to be difficult at all - and I may just be very dense - I just can't make this all fit.

Unless this is where investigators who haven't handled anything remotely like this being a detriment is rearing its head...

 

[musicman]

Has anyone seen any arrest records from related activity at the Tiki Bar on 7/20/2014?

 

[TravelingBug]

Has anyone seen any arrest records from related activity at the Tiki Bar on 7/20/2014?

Ooh...

Something we might be interested it sounds like??

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Doesn't mention a name, but here is the July 20 report from weekly media release. Putting two and two together, we can assume that the 53 year old man arrested for public drunkenness may have been related to the fight at Windmill Point, although it doesn't say where he was arrested in the release.

------------------------------

July 20 A 53 year old Midlothian man was arrested for public drunkenness. Staff responded to an assault call
at a White Stone area convenience store (victim declined to prosecute); responded to a residential burglary callon Reynolds Farm Road (civil domestic issue; no criminal incident); received a report of the theft of firearms
from a Howards Lane residence (2 12 gauge Mossberg shotguns, 3 .410 shotguns, 1 20 gauge Mossberg
shotgun; $1,304 loss; all weapons recovered); responded to a domestic disturbance on Richtown Road; notified
USCG Milford Haven and Middlesex authorities of a report of a boater in distress off of Greys Point; responded
to a prowler complaint in the area of Havenwood Lane.

 

[musicman]

Doesn't mention a name, but here is the July 20 report from weekly media release. Putting two and two together, we can assume that the 53 year old man arrested for public drunkenness may have been related to the fight at Windmill Point, although it doesn't say where he was arrested in the release.

------------------------------

July 20 A 53 year old Midlothian man was arrested for public drunkenness. Staff responded to an assault call
at a White Stone area convenience store (victim declined to prosecute); responded to a residential burglary callon Reynolds Farm Road (civil domestic issue; no criminal incident); received a report of the theft of firearms
from a Howards Lane residence (2 12 gauge Mossberg shotguns, 3 .410 shotguns, 1 20 gauge Mossberg
shotgun; $1,304 loss; all weapons recovered); responded to a domestic disturbance on Richtown Road; notified
USCG Milford Haven and Middlesex authorities of a report of a boater in distress off of Greys Point; responded
to a prowler complaint in the area of Havenwood Lane.

The media release pdf on the sheriff's web site cites an arrest due to a fight but gave no details. TK was involved.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Yep, confirmed, TK was the 53yom arrested in connection with the altercation. Supposedly unrelated to the case, but realistically, I can see tensions flaring in a small community with everyone looking at him with suspicion. Tangentially-related at the very least. If he is involved in her disappearance (opinions are one thing but I'm trying to think objectively) this at least gets him into the system and might allow further probing.

http://wtvr.com/2014/07/23/midlothian-man-last-seen-with-missing-woman-charged-in-separate-felony/

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Lancaster County Sheriff's Office (via Facebook)

July 24: Four volunteer search and rescue canine teams, along with a unit from the Virginia Department of Emergency Services, returned to Lancaster County yesterday as part of the continued investigation of the missing persons case of Claudine J. Gifford. Two canine teams each from K-9 East and Richmond Search and Rescue checked locations in the upper end of the county and outside of Kilmarnock. No new information was developed.