VA - Hannah Elizabeth Graham, 18, Charlottesville, 13 Sept 2014 - #6

[Darcyline]

My issue with proving whether a crime has been committed or not is the fact that it is much harder to prosecute if there is no proof of a crime. I don't mean proof as in "we really strongly feel a crime was committed"-REAL evidence that can be presented to courts. If not a body, then blood, a struggle, or other stuff. Their case becomes exponentially more difficult if no one can prove that she is even dead or not voluntarily missing. And yes, ridiculous to think she would be voluntarily missing, but all it takes is a shadow of doubt in a court case. It frustrates and upsets me that we may not have any actual, concrete evidence that a crime has occurred. It just makes proving that crime happened a lot more difficult, if not impossible. There have been murder trials with no bodies, of course, but there is usually compelling evidence otherwise (blood, confession, other outstanding circumstances).

 

[Dixie811]

I am thinking perhaps LE has video or other evidence that WG either left the mall alone and went home and/or did not begin following Hannah later. Otherwise, we could question whether BG is telling the truth that Hannah did not get in his car-- but if instead, WG saw them exit Tempo and approached/followed Hannah again once BG departed.

(Not trying to insinuate WG did this... just stating I think that is a plausible scenario, so I am hoping/assuming LE verified WG could not have re-involved himself with Hannah after she exited Tempo)

 

[leilarose68]

I don't recall them ever saying WG was cleared. I think they said they were considering him a cooperative witness "for now" or something like that. Obviously, they are very focused on Dreadlocks Guy in connection with Hannah's disappearance. I'm not trying to minimize that. But I never heard they "cleared" WG. I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.

JMO.

i don't think they said he was a cooperative witness 'for now'. did they? i think they just called him a cooperative witness. i mean, there is a big difference between the two statements.

 

[Fireweed]

Yeah, but people keep saying, "All we have is a missing person." Technically true, but boring. I mean, this is a place for ideas, sleuthing, right?

Thank you! ITA. This is the purpose of this board. Instead of say, "there is no proof" people should say, "evidence x points to A and evidence y points to B". I just cannot wrap my head around anyone's analysis here simply stating that there is no proof of something. There is no going to be "proof" at this stage. We are analyzing the facts and evidence as we know them.

I still have an open mind and I do not think there is PROOF that JL murdered HG. I think that, based upon the evidence that we have, he is more likely than not going to turn out to be the main suspect. Again, I do not have tunnel vision, I keep an open mind, and I am open to reading anyone's analysis of the facts that points to something else. In fact, I love that stuff and it is why I come here. But simply stating over and over again that there is no "proof" of something without a further analysis seems completely against the spirit of this board.

 

[Jmm124567]

If that is dreads in the Daily Mail article then he doesn't look too scary. One thing that makes me think he may have not done it is how friendly he seemed to be acting in the mall by high fiving people. It seems like police are trying to piece this all together using eye witnesses.

There is also a story on NBC12 giving his name.

 

[Makaroni]

BBM. Which is exactly why he should be marching down to the police station to tell what he knows. He was the last person to be seen with a woman who is now missing. Teddy bear or not, you got some splainin' to do. You don't talk, you look guilty. The end.

Agreed!! And sorry, I don't see "teddy bear" when I see his picture. Then again, I never thought Hannah was trying to score drugs .. :thinking: matter of opinion I suppose. (And I'm not implying missgulfsouth that you think this .. Just jumping off your post.)

 

[Skigirl]

Not completely insane, I have actually thought that same scenario up in my head, and I'm pretty sure I'm not insane...

I have always thought that it was very suspicious that Dreads guy is seen in the last images (at least that the public has seen) of Hannah. That said, WTH is going on in Charlottesville with the sexual assaults that same weekend? The unconscious woman found in the area of Hannah's apartment? Given how long HG's travels were that night, I suppose it's not totally impossible that she continued on her trek after parting ways with HG. Seems like there may be any number of weird predators to choose from in Charlottesville right now

 

[birdbox]

Did LE say her text was in response to a friend's text...as long as we are keeping the waters clear.

 

[song22]

Alright I guess I totally misread Longo at the pressie, but I came away with a distinct impression of he thinks of JL and his involvement in this case. I could be wrong, but that was my own impression.

I was wondering if he is just super pissed that JL will not talk and might know something or be able to help the investigation. It's possible that Longo doesn't think he is the perp but that by remaining silent he is thwarting their ability to find her and that makes Longo really angry and now he's putting all the pressure on him he can to talk, fast!!!

I have no idea. I've seen cases where the perp has no previous red flags and does something heinous. But I also know how black men can be scapegoated and that worries me. I am definitely on the fence with this one at this point. JMO

 

[cluciano63]

Yeah, but people keep saying, "All we have is a missing person." Technically true, but boring. I mean, this is a place for ideas, sleuthing, right?

Yes and many missing people turn out to be crime victims but many, probably more, do not. Everyone was convinced until last week that Kristy Kelley was abducted and murdered but it turns out she drove into a lake, an accidental drowning. Many college students have cases here who ended up missing, later found dead, as a result of accidents after drinking. So...we wait and see and give theories. Jmo

 

[Fireweed]

And I think this is our whole point. No body = no proof of a crime even being committed.

You keep saying a crime has taken place, and some of us are saying that we don't have those facts yet.

I keep saying that based upon the evidence, it is more likely than not that a crime has taken place.

 

[Justice101]

BBM. Which is exactly why he should be marching down to the police station to tell what he knows. He was the last person to be seen with a woman who is now missing. Teddy bear or not, you got some splainin' to do. You don't talk, you look guilty. The end.

He doesn't have to talk. It's his constitutional right... and if he is guilty of a lesser crime like contributing to the delinquency of a minor or disposing of a body....it might be in his best interest to not talk. Just sayin' They would need to a) find the body, b) prove she was killed vs whatever

 

[missgulfsouth]

smart people lawyer up and wait for their lawyers to guide them a bit. when youi're the last person to have seen someone, you don't want to be speaking off the cuff, even if you're innocent.

Smart people lawyer up? Or guilty people? I'm undecided on that point, so we can agree to disagree.

 

[leilarose68]

Thank you! ITA. This is the purpose of this board. Instead of say, "there is no proof" people should say, "evidence x points to A and evidence y points to B". I just cannot wrap my head around anyone's analysis here simply stating that there is no proof of something. There is no going to be "proof" at this stage. We are analyzing the facts and evidence as we know them.

I still have an open mind and I do not think there is PROOF that JL murdered HG. I think that, based upon the evidence that we have, he is more likely than not going to turn out to be the main suspect. Again, I do not have tunnel vision, I keep an open mind, and I am open to reading anyone's analysis of the facts that points to something else. In fact, I love that stuff and it is why I come here. But simply stating over and over again that there is no "proof" of something without a further analysis seems completely against the spirit of this board.

people have been throwing all kinds of theories around. but not without some healthy doubt. the spirit of this board is to speculate in an open-minded, responsible manner

 

[cluciano63]

My issue with proving whether a crime has been committed or not is the fact that it is much harder to prosecute if there is no proof of a crime. I don't mean proof as in "we really strongly feel a crime was committed"-REAL evidence that can be presented to courts. If not a body, then blood, a struggle, or other stuff. Their case becomes exponentially more difficult if no one can prove that she is even dead or not voluntarily missing. And yes, ridiculous to think she would be voluntarily missing, but all it takes is a shadow of doubt in a court case. It frustrates and upsets me that we may not have any actual, concrete evidence that a crime has occurred. It just makes proving that crime happened a lot more difficult, if not impossible. There have been murder trials with no bodies, of course, but there is usually compelling evidence otherwise (blood, confession, other outstanding circumstances).

Especially when main witness, maybe, was totally off on description.

 

[carbuff]

I'd like to clarify one point.. as I think the information about Hannah's last text has gotten a bit muddled. AFAIK, according to LE her last text said "I'm lost in the area of 14th and Wertlend". She did not say.. 'I'm going to a party and I'm lost'. Her text was apparently in response to her friend wondering why Hannah was so late in arriving at the party she had planned to meet them at (these are the friends she went to dinner with that evening and was meant to meet up with later). Hannah's last text doesn't specifically indicate she was still wanting to party or planning to party at all.

It seems like a small detail but I think it's important we try not to muddle the few facts we have

I've seen at least three variations of what her text is supposed to have said, with no way to tell which one is the truth. If you have a citation to an authoritative version, that would be great.

 

[TTF14]

smart people lawyer up and wait for their lawyers to guide them a bit. when youi're the last person to have seen someone, you don't want to be speaking off the cuff, even if you're innocent.

Perhaps this POI could have had an attorney assist him to the police station to tell what he knows 5 or 6 days ago?

 

[leilarose68]

Smart people lawyer up? Or guilty people? I'm undecided on that point, so we can agree to disagree.

uhhh most definitely both. are you unfamiliar with the all-too-common situation of innocent people going to jail because they say something that sounds 'suspicious' or the cops somehow convince them of things they didn't do?
innocent or guilty, everyone needs a lawyer if they find themselves involved in a crime situation. you can't trust that justice is always going to be served.

 

[Justice101]

Yes and many missing people turn out to be crime victims but many, probably more, do not. Everyone was convinced until last week that Kristy Kelley was abducted and murdered but it turns out she drove into a lake, an accidental drowning. Many college students have cases here who ended up missing, later found dead, as a result of accidents after drinking. So...we wait and see and give theories. Jmo

PRECISELY! Let's say she did leave on her own after the drink at the bar with dredlocks.... and then stumbles her way down and falls into the river to drown?

 

[TTF14]

I keep saying that based upon the evidence, it is more likely than not that a crime has taken place.

There are zero people on this forum that disagree with you.