Identified! VA - Mclean, BlkFem 15-20, UP6470, wooded area behind apart complex, clothes, jewelry, Sep'01 - Patricia Agnes "Choubi" Gildawie

Springrain

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There is a lot of uncertainty in anthropological analysis of ancestry. We don't use it at all. We will get the facts from DNA testing anyways.
Yes, this isn't directed at your wonderful testing - I am just baffled at how many former Does have had such completely wrong stats from before identification. Marilee Bruszer used to be considered one whose stats were off (wrong age, height, weight, time of death), but the ones being identified lately have been far more off. We are lucky that genetic genealogy organizations are able to work these cases.

To be clear, I am not judging these anthropologists and I know that there will always be human error. I just think it is important to consider other things when investigating skeletal remains.
 

othram

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Yes, this isn't directed at your wonderful testing - I am just baffled at how many former Does have had such completely wrong stats from before identification. Marilee Bruszer used to be considered one whose stats were off (wrong age, height, weight, time of death), but the ones being identified lately have been far more off. We are lucky that genetic genealogy organizations are able to work these cases.

To be clear, I am not judging these anthropologists and I know that there will always be human error. I just think it is important to consider other things when investigating skeletal remains.
The source of uncertainty often comes from skeletal remains being damaged or incomplete. The skull in this case was damaged making it hard to really say anything for sure.
 
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There have been a lot of Does identified within the last few years whose stats were COMPLETELY wrong, whether it be race/ethnicity, date of death, height/weight, etc., but Choubi's has to be the most wrong I can recall!

We are seeing a lot of identified Does being of different races than suspected, so I think it's important to not take it as 100% for skeletal remains in particular. (Ex: Choubi, Janet Lee Lucas, Julie Davis, Randi Boothe-Wilson, and more I can't recall now).
Now I know I have to go back and take into consideration the fact that some of these unidentified people could be wrong. So since I am searching for a 21 year old white female who went missing in 1983, I now know that race and pmi could be wrong.
 

Springrain

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I can se how she was mislabeled as Black. Her wide cheekbones and overall face shape can easily match the stats for an average "textbook" AA skull shape. The limits of anthropology.
Hearing this makes me really wonder further how many incorrect assumptions are made about skeletal remains since anthropology isn't certain. I'm white and Asian, and have a similar face shape to Choubi - makes me wonder what I'd be categorized as.
 

RememberingRyan

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I can understand how measurements can lead to inaccurate conclusions in some cases, but what is concerning to me is how many people may currently exist on exclusion lists for their own remains based on assumptions instead of solid contraindications.
 

wary

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I can understand how measurements can lead to inaccurate conclusions in some cases, but what is concerning to me is how many people may currently exist on exclusion lists for their own remains based on assumptions instead of solid contraindications.
I used to worry about that, but as far as I know, no one identified by genetic genealogy has been ‘on their own exclusion list.’ Overlooked or ignored, yes.

Of course, I might not be aware of some.

MOO
 

Springrain

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About UIDs being on their own rule-out lists -

I don't think that would be a big topic of concern, because AFAIK, MPs end up on rule-out lists not just because they are the "incorrect" race, too tall or short, etc. Exclusions on Namus IMO wouldn't be made just on the basis of different stats, AFAIK they have to have more basis than that. Of course, Sharon was ruled out as Little Miss Nobody, but those were different circumstances.

I have mixed feelings on the whole thing, because with skeletal remains, as we see with Choubi's case, there is a LOT of room for error with anthropology. But, IMO, for cases with UIDs with recognizable faces and much shorter PMIs, I think we should be a lot more discerning with submitting MPs. I am not saying this to be negative or discouraging, and I definitely believe skeletal remain UIDs are a totally different story, but I feel this is a big issue with skeletal remains stats being wrong, but less so with more recognizable UIDs. JMO.
 

othram

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About UIDs being on their own rule-out lists -

I don't think that would be a big topic of concern, because AFAIK, MPs end up on rule-out lists not just because they are the "incorrect" race, too tall or short, etc. Exclusions on Namus IMO wouldn't be made just on the basis of different stats, AFAIK they have to have more basis than that. Of course, Sharon was ruled out as Little Miss Nobody, but those were different circumstances.

I have mixed feelings on the whole thing, because with skeletal remains, as we see with Choubi's case, there is a LOT of room for error with anthropology. But, IMO, for cases with UIDs with recognizable faces and much shorter PMIs, I think we should be a lot more discerning with submitting MPs. I am not saying this to be negative or discouraging, and I definitely believe skeletal remain UIDs are a totally different story, but I feel this is a big issue with skeletal remains stats being wrong, but less so with more recognizable UIDs. JMO.

We have posted this explanation before, but in case some find it interesting, here is a blog post on biogeographical ancestry analysis: Estimating Human Ancestry.

Its hard as it is to measure ancestry just from skeletal remains, but when the remains are damaged (as was the case here) there is often too much uncertainty to really make a determination one way or the other.
 

imstilla.grandma

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Veronique Duperly spent most of 1975 plastering posters of her younger sister’s high school yearbook picture onto street corners all around Fairfax County.

Next to the photo, she typed: “Missing 17-year-old Choubi Gildawie.”

“God, I remember putting them things up,” said Duperly, now 66. “Nobody ever called.”

Duperly said she lost hope decades ago that she would reunite with her sister, Patricia Gildawie, who went by the nickname “Choubi.”

But using forensic genealogy testing, detectives with the Fairfax County Police Department linked remains found 21 years ago near a drainage ditch at Lincoln Circle in McLean to Gildawie. Detectives recently told Duperly what happened to her sister: Evidence shows the 17-year-old girl was shot in the head sometime in the mid-to-late 70s in the then-wooded McLean Street, which is now the site of an apartment complex.

Police said potential leads about the female victim’s identity fell through for decades until they teamed up with forensic laboratory Othram Inc. — a company which they have used in the past. Othram scientists created a DNA profile for the victim that matched Duperly’s family tree.

Investigators were then able to confirm the remains belonged to Gildawie herself in August through additional DNA testing, Fairfax County police said.
 
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