**Verdict watch weekend discussion thread** 3/3-4/2012

[Lori59]

As far as the shoes, at first thought the two prints were strange to me, but I think the PT showed enough to let the jurors come to the conclusion they were JY's HP shoes...so the other prints, different size, heavier prints....seemed staged. Along with if you believe that 2 people were there then you would think that as one was killing MY, the other would be robbing the place...along with no sexual assault. So it took two guys to kill MY? They just came in there and killed a mother alone with her child while she slept? Didn't steal or rape her??? Just came in... beat her to death and cleaned up so as not to track blood downstairs???? So I go back to JY.

 

[SteelerGirl43]

Ok and others tried it and the foot fit into the smaller size. If someone really wants it to fit, it will fit, especially a sneaker.

So some can and some cant.... Could go either way.. Still no proof he wore them or he didnt....

 

[hindsight2020]

quote=fromageball;7660701]If the size 10 franklins fit so well in JY's plan, why wouldn't he have worn them the entire time instead of also wearing shoes he could be traced to?

Whoever killed MY (I am convinced it was JY) left the bloody scene of the bedroom and left no traces of blood anywhere else. So this person obviously cleaned themselves up, changed clothes and shoes, and bagged everything for disposal. I bet JY never knew how rare the HP shoes are or he would have picked another pair.

^^^^This, exactly!

 

[Just the Fax]

Actually, that was the reason they wrote for executing the warrant. So, whether or not LEO actually thought it was a possibility, they put it in writing.

Well, if they did in 2007, they certainly don't in 2012.
Looks to me like they left no stone unturned.
No rush to judgement like Collins barked.

 

[Wolfpack]

Well, if they did in 2007, they certainly don't in 2012.
Looks to me like they left no stone unturned.
No rush to judgement like Collins barked.

Agree with you that they don't think that now. I doubt whether they legitimately thought it then. LEO will put just about anything into the probable cause section of a SW to "get permission" for the search. But Cammy isn't just making it up either, which is the accusation in the post I was commenting on.

 

[Cheyenne130]

Well, if they did in 2007, they certainly don't in 2012.
Looks to me like they left no stone unturned.
No rush to judgement like Collins barked.

It seemed to me like the real "rush to judgement" came from his friend who realized from the first moment that JY was most likely guilty of the crime and called him to advise him to get a lawyer.

 

[Talina]

Agree with you that they don't think that now. I doubt whether they legitimately thought it then. LEO will put just about anything into the probable cause section of a SW to "get permission" for the search. But Cammy isn't just making it up either, which is the accusation in the post I was commenting on.

Would you say that it is in the realm of possibility that LE never really thought that or some other theories but still had to go the distance including SW's to rule out other possibilities. Remote or not, I'd prefer that they do everything required to rule out other possibilities or theories.

Maybe it's naive of my thought process, but I'd rather think that they are ruling out other possibilities rather than just fabricating reasons on a SW in order to get access for something else altogether. They are limited to securing and obtaining only what is listed in the SW, aren't they?

I'm not saying that is what you said, I'm asking for clarification.


IMO

 

[heidisams]

///// snipped by me///// The best evidence at the crime scene is the HP shoe, but it is not conclusive that his feet were in the shoes.
///// snipped by me/////
.

I have seen this comment made several times now by posters who think jy is either, NG, innocent, or are leaning toward NG. And I know many posters, myself included, have been convinced of his guilt because of the hp shoes. I understand we're not always going to agree, and I respect everyone's opinions. But, I just don't see how it's reasonable to dismiss this evidence because they couldn't prove his feet were in his shoes. I get that there are some other explanations for it, but are they reasonable? Consider all the evidence that has come in... including, the picture of jy in shoes consistent with his hp's, on his feet, the night before... that went missing the following day. Is it more reasonable to think jy's feet were or weren't in those same shoes hours later? I can't help but wonder if our standard of proof is too high... IMO, it's what happened in the ca trial... Was that just a fluke or is it a new trend we can look forward to in other trials? It's quite frustrating and scary to consider the repercussions...
All JMO

 

[borndem]

Makes perfect sense to me, and it must have at one time to the state, because they issued a search warrant for Michelle's Lexus thinking the very same thing, that CY had been taken from the home in her car........

Of course they had to follow this -- they want to have reasons or answers for questions or possibilities of evidence of guilt or innocence. Not to have followed-up on this might be 1) missing something that might help solve the crime , and certainly 2) dereliction of duty.

Most people know how this works - some searches pay off, and some don't. This one didn't. That's it.

 

[Wolfpack]

Would you say that it is in the realm of possibility that LE never really thought that or some other theories but still had to go the distance including SW's to rule out other possibilities. Remote or not, I'd prefer that they do everything required to rule out other possibilities or theories.

Maybe it's naive of my thought process, but I'd rather think that they are ruling out other possibilities rather than just fabricating reasons on a SW in order to get access for something else altogether. They are limited to securing and obtaining only what is listed in the SW, aren't they?

I'm not saying that is what you said, I'm asking for clarification.


IMO

In a perfect world, you would be completely right. I'm a little more skeptical in reality. Yes, they are limited to securing and obtaining the things they listed in the SW, but that can be painted with a pretty broad stroke. For instance "electronics" in general or "items relevant to a murder investigation." Anything is relevant to a murder investigation...

I don't think every SW out there is fabricated or just a fishing expedition, nor do I think LEO is entirely honest in the facts they put in the SW or the one sided tale they weave.

 

[LOMom]

I have truly struggled with this case since I think JY is a real womanizing, immature, and shallow guy------I just simply don't understand why MY ever hooked up with him other than he is a very smooth operator. She should have never married him.

That said, the evidence in this case could have been potent. The very best evidence, Gracie, has credibility issues through no fault of her own. I think some of the blame lies on LE never trying to bolster her credibility. I simply don't buy that they did not have time to look through all of the footage for 60 days. Enough for Gracie, she is a remarkable woman, but her testimony for me has to be left out. The hotel events, while strange, do not point directly to JY as being absent during the night. The best evidence at the crime scene is the HP shoe, but it is not conclusive that his feet were in the shoes.

So here are the 3 best pieces of evidence for the PT: HP shoe, JY's adding additional life insurance coverage on MY, JY's past and present lack of respect and regard for women in his life.

The 3 best pieces of evidence for DT: Size 10 Franklin shoe, additional evidence at scene that points to additional individuals not identifiable by LE, CY did not identify him in her doll acting out at the Day Care Center even though she identified her mom.

I could actually add several additional pieces for the DT: Lack of the murder weapon, several eye witnesses citing unknown cars in the driveway (one identifying two individuals in the vehicle), tight window of time.

So if I were on the jury, I would vote NG of 1st degree even though I have strong doubt. For the record, If Gracie's identity could have been confirmed, I would be in the G side.

Thanks for suggesting this approach for sharing ideas without being snarky. To help know my background, I am multi-degreed, scientifically trained analytical, and taught to analyze more by proven facts than feelings. In spite of the snarkiness here sometimes, it is a real pleasure to share ideas with each of you. And, JTF, we do butt heads sometimes, but I truly admire your passion about this case.

You have the size 12 hush puppies at the murder scene. That along with motive, means, and opportunity and JY is a guilty man.

How does anybody so easily disregard the hush puppy shoes??? That is very compelling evidence - it's almost as good as a finger print. You're seriously going to believe that a stanger random killer changed shoes (from the Franklins to the hush puppies) into a pair that weren't his size so that we woudn't leave a blood trail, but you can't believe that the man with all the motive wore shoes (Franklins) that weren't his size in order to throw off LE??? On this board just today, we already mentioned two other cases in which the killer tried to throw off LE by having the wrong size shoe show up in the crime scene - it happens, so why can't you believe it happened in this case?? It's not a leap to believe that it happened.

Shame on people throwing out Gracie's testimony based on the DT's attack of her on the stand. She clearly remembers the face of the man who cussed at her and threw a 20 in her face, but only pumped $15 in gas on the morning of 11/3 at about 5:30am.

 

[gngr~snap]

Maybe Im misunderstanding you, but what you are saying doesnt make sense.... So you are saying that AFTER he got to Va that MY told him it was over?

So he started calling MF and she suggested the purse?

So can you explain why he looked at purses before he left if MF suggested them that night???

So she told him it was over, why get mad.. Isnt that what everyone has been saying he wanted.. No marriage no kids... He would be free.....

Cant have it both ways....

. Now maybe Im misunderstanding you if so could you please explain ... Thanks

Found it! JY wants it both ways not me.

"Jason Young, who is charged with first-degree murder, was out of town on business, Fisher testified, and he had left her a voicemail asking her to go by his house to pick up some papers he left on a printer about a belated anniversary gift for his wife."

Jason Young... had felt that he was pressured into marriage when the couple found out in 2003 that they were pregnant with Cassidy.... he was a free spirit stuck in the college way of life and was resistant to settling down...
...Young often gave his wife the "silent treatment" and "played the divorce card."
"He said it would be even more difficult being divorced from her than it would being married to her," she said.

Fisher said she would often serve as an intermediary to help them talk about common issues in their marriage
http://www.wral.com/specialreports/michelleyoung/story/10697087/

 

[LOMom]

If he were really a sociopath, I wouldn't expect him to lose his cool and scream at Gracie at the gas station.

Actually, that is part of the sociopath profile. See the Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature section below....

Based on all the testimony and evidence in this case, JY sure seems like a sociopath.

Profile of the Sociopath

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

 

[Grammy Jean]

It seemed to me like the real "rush to judgement" came from his friend who realized from the first moment that JY was most likely guilty of the crime and called him to advise him to get a lawyer.

I still wonder why Ryan was not called to testify. Anyone have thoughts about this?

 

[Cheyenne130]

I still wonder why Ryan was not called to testify. Anyone have thoughts about this?

He knew from early on that Jason likely did this. He would not have been a good witness for the defense. On the other hand, I think he still felt loyalty to JY and would not have been a good witness for the prosecution. I do believe that he realized that Jason killed Michelle but he didn't want to be a "rat".

 

[knicksgal1]

It sounds like JY's phone calls to MY may have occurred while she was saint goodbye to SS. Would love to know what was said in that last call.

As for 3 strengths for each side:
Defense
1. No fibers or blood transfer
2. No blood in drains
3. No concrete explanation for franklin's

Prosecution
1. HP shoes and missing shirt at least
2. Shenanigans with doors and cameras at the hotel
3. Combination of both MY and JYs "I'm done" and the insurance $$$$$$$

 

[hindsight2020]

I still wonder why Ryan was not called to testify. Anyone have thoughts about this?

I can think of two reasons;

1-JY may not want Ryan to testify or involve him, they may still be friends, he probably knows many things about JY and may not want to perjure himself; or
2-Ryan thinks JY is guilty and may not have been a good witness on the stand for DT.

 

[Grammy Jean]

Well, if they did in 2007, they certainly don't in 2012.
Looks to me like they left no stone unturned.
No rush to judgement like Collins barked.

And as we have both noted before, this did not stop BC from still pursuing this line of questioning in his cross of MF, trying to make her out as untruthful in her 911 call. Despicable man! IMO

 

[Grammy Jean]

I can think of two reasons;

1-JY may not want Ryan to testify or involve him, they may still be friends, he probably knows many things about JY and may not want to perjure himself; or
2-Ryan thinks JY is guilty and may not have been a good witness on the stand for DT.

IMO your #2 is most likely correct, it was quite clear how SS, (Ryan's wife) felt. I doubt JY has many once upon a time friends who believe he is innocent. That was a poor show with BA and JD.

 

[borndem]

Did he try on Franklins?

FWIW... the hubby & I just had a conversation about the case and about the shoe sizes. He was a huge athlete involved in soccer, football & basketball in his younger days; and now he's just a coach. He says the Franklins run BIG! And also said he thought they were out of the shoe business now, but isn't 100% sure just knows that they are no longer offered to his athletes when buying equipment & uniforms and recalled being told that by a rep sometime back.

I still stand by my earlier statement... the same exact foot can fit into numerous shoe sizes. MOO

bbm

You're right, Stella -- I have sold shoes -- summer & Christmas holidays all during high school and a couple of college years -- and yes, shoe sizes and individual feet fitting into them does indeed vary widely. One side note -- my friend stated that the only non-athletic shoes that fit her feet well are Nine West brand -- I, OTOH, have never found that brand to fit my feet well at all. Different strokes.

Athletic shoes - Reeboks run wider than Nikes or Adidas. Nikes run a bit longer than Adidas..Filas run a bit short and not as wide. So it goes -- and when you're dealing with lace-ups, there is a lot more give and take with fitting shoes, as we all know. I have narrow feet, and I can't wear a M in a dress or casual shoe -- I'll walk right out of it -- but I can wear a M lace-up Adidas. So your DH makes a good point about shoe size variation, and knowing how shoes are cut (longer, wider, etc.) is the mark of a good shoe sales person..... "Oh, these 11M are too narrow? Let's try these 10 1/2 Reeboks," and so forth.

And how do we know what JY may have done to those Franklin's to make them fit him for an hour or so? He could have cut out the heel or the toe a bit to make more room -- all he needed was the sole imprint. $10.00 - cut them to fit - make size 10 footprints out side before going in just in case they notice, make footprints inside and then put on a pair that fit, or just imprint the shoes without even wearing them -- easy, quick, done.