Victim: Melissa Barthelemy, 24, missing July 2009, found Gilgo Beach Dec 2010 *Rex Heuermann charged* #2
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If someone could direct me to the right thread-
much appreciated
IDK the rules and hope i am not breaking them
Just my opinion
I wonder. Using the information given via MB sister’s phone calls- the use of the term “half-breed”, could the SK be themselves “half-bred”.
Okay so follow me.
I wonder if SK grew up in a cultural environment as someone who did not “look” part of their culture, and it was repeated to them a lot.
I do agree - the term “half breed” is very old fashioned , and not typically how a Caucasion male racist would word this expression given the intention. The wordage is atypical considering the widely used verbal attack language used in American culture since IDK way before this person was alive.
But - maybe it used often to SK in another language and loosely translated
SK may sound white because he doesn’t sound specifically any other dialect/accent
Were any of the GB4 sexually assaulted? Or any indication? Aside from being naked
From my research, the AC4 were not.
Certain aspects of the 4GB and the AC4 are eerily similar. The spatial awareness holds me- from an aerial map view, the placement is so specific.
I am by trade a visual artist/sculptor - and the placement of these women from an aerial Google map perspective are very striking as a graphic. Highly specific. Not the same, but closely related.
This is how you build an art show, the work feels related enough to be in the same room and also independent. Not saying SK is an artist BTW.
I am also an avid Geocacher- i wonder if the spacing is based on pacing, very Boy Scout- counting each step you walk/heel to foot.
Maybe some of the larger variations in distance between each victim could indicate sometimes SK is drunk, as MB boyfriend/pimp said.
IMO it does seem possible SK does partake/drink/party sometimes, maybe only for the purpose of targeting. Perhaps each victim had contact previously and assumed it would be a similar, non-threatening experience.
It is noted ALL 8 of the AC4 and GB4 were identified immediately- I wonder if SK chose women who had family strategically to be noticed. (versus several LI Jane Doe for example)
There is a theory SK is a drug dealer because some victims gave an impression of a short, momentary, interaction or a person known or trusted.
I wonder if it could be as simple as SK likes to party and is wealthy. Very wealthy and seemingly non threatening. “I am heading up to LI, we are going to party our faces off - come up I will pay you well”
Aerially, 4GB - LE would know exactly where to look given the data. As PB pointed out- (1) was in the middle, and it went Left, Right, Left, and we could presume Right
The AC4 - I do not know the area, but the same goes essentially - 1 far 2 short 3 far 4 short and so on..
One thing is certain, each set of (4) women are exclusively a set. Highly specific.
(4) burlap sacks.
(4) in a drainage ditch in a row
Specifically intended burial distances, positioning, and dress. (naked in burlap/fully clothed w/o shoes.
I doubt any of the other victims on LI or AC found during the investigation are related. IMO.
I imagine this person studies burial rituals, maybe as part of a religion but maybe as a hobby.
Is there any indication the GB4 were sexually assaulted? Has LE looked outside the US for a similar pattern?
much appreciated
IDK the rules and hope i am not breaking them
Just my opinion
I wonder. Using the information given via MB sister’s phone calls- the use of the term “half-breed”, could the SK be themselves “half-bred”.
Okay so follow me.
I wonder if SK grew up in a cultural environment as someone who did not “look” part of their culture, and it was repeated to them a lot.
I do agree - the term “half breed” is very old fashioned , and not typically how a Caucasion male racist would word this expression given the intention. The wordage is atypical considering the widely used verbal attack language used in American culture since IDK way before this person was alive.
But - maybe it used often to SK in another language and loosely translated
SK may sound white because he doesn’t sound specifically any other dialect/accent
Were any of the GB4 sexually assaulted? Or any indication? Aside from being naked
From my research, the AC4 were not.
Certain aspects of the 4GB and the AC4 are eerily similar. The spatial awareness holds me- from an aerial map view, the placement is so specific.
I am by trade a visual artist/sculptor - and the placement of these women from an aerial Google map perspective are very striking as a graphic. Highly specific. Not the same, but closely related.
This is how you build an art show, the work feels related enough to be in the same room and also independent. Not saying SK is an artist BTW.
I am also an avid Geocacher- i wonder if the spacing is based on pacing, very Boy Scout- counting each step you walk/heel to foot.
Maybe some of the larger variations in distance between each victim could indicate sometimes SK is drunk, as MB boyfriend/pimp said.
IMO it does seem possible SK does partake/drink/party sometimes, maybe only for the purpose of targeting. Perhaps each victim had contact previously and assumed it would be a similar, non-threatening experience.
It is noted ALL 8 of the AC4 and GB4 were identified immediately- I wonder if SK chose women who had family strategically to be noticed. (versus several LI Jane Doe for example)
There is a theory SK is a drug dealer because some victims gave an impression of a short, momentary, interaction or a person known or trusted.
I wonder if it could be as simple as SK likes to party and is wealthy. Very wealthy and seemingly non threatening. “I am heading up to LI, we are going to party our faces off - come up I will pay you well”
Aerially, 4GB - LE would know exactly where to look given the data. As PB pointed out- (1) was in the middle, and it went Left, Right, Left, and we could presume Right
The AC4 - I do not know the area, but the same goes essentially - 1 far 2 short 3 far 4 short and so on..
One thing is certain, each set of (4) women are exclusively a set. Highly specific.
(4) burlap sacks.
(4) in a drainage ditch in a row
Specifically intended burial distances, positioning, and dress. (naked in burlap/fully clothed w/o shoes.
I doubt any of the other victims on LI or AC found during the investigation are related. IMO.
I imagine this person studies burial rituals, maybe as part of a religion but maybe as a hobby.
Is there any indication the GB4 were sexually assaulted? Has LE looked outside the US for a similar pattern?
LadyRobot, that’s a really interesting and thoughtful post, your thoughts on the visual perspective in particular.
I’m in the U.K. we had a case a while ago, a guy called Christopher Halliwell (he has been sleuthed on here also). He was caught for a murder he had committed recently (2011) but also led police to the body of another woman (Becky Godden-Edwards) that he had killed in 2003.
The search for Becky’s body was delayed because he initially told them to dig in the wrong place by accident. He had found a notch on a stone wall between the road and the field were Becky was buried. He then had to walk a certain number of paces to find the location of her grave. But in the years since vegetation had grown and the symbolic notch in the wall had been covered. He was pacing from the wrong notch, when the same paces were taken from right watch, it led straight to Becky. So yes, it’s something serial killers have been known to do. Well spotted.
Serial killers do usually kill their own race. My feeling is that it’s a white man, quite possibly a racist one, because of the racist comments. Also because most of the GB4 (plus Shannon) had non-white boyfriends/children/relatives, may have been anger at ‘mixing’?
I doubt very much the killer is an alcoholic, because of the need to be in control. I can only really think of Dahmer. Coke or meth are more likely. But yes, using substances to target others.
I find it difficult to make my mind up about if the spacing was curated or just because of practicality. As far as we know, police haven’t confirmed if they were all dumped shortly after they died, or if they were moved there all in one go after being stored at another location for some time. I know the Lisk podcasters think that he moved them there all at once. But the police haven’t said if they could tell from the condition/type/cut of the burlap, decomposition and vegetation growth whether they were put there all together or separately. I’m sure they must be able to tell, so I don’t know if the LISK podcast people were told off the record that they were put there together.
There’s definitely an element of curation isn’t there? At least 2 victims were put there after Shannan disappeared. I’d think logically, because of the stuff with Shannan, the sensible tactic would have been to hide them much further away. The fact they were in spitting distance makes me think he wanted to find them there too.
I’m in the U.K. we had a case a while ago, a guy called Christopher Halliwell (he has been sleuthed on here also). He was caught for a murder he had committed recently (2011) but also led police to the body of another woman (Becky Godden-Edwards) that he had killed in 2003.
The search for Becky’s body was delayed because he initially told them to dig in the wrong place by accident. He had found a notch on a stone wall between the road and the field were Becky was buried. He then had to walk a certain number of paces to find the location of her grave. But in the years since vegetation had grown and the symbolic notch in the wall had been covered. He was pacing from the wrong notch, when the same paces were taken from right watch, it led straight to Becky. So yes, it’s something serial killers have been known to do. Well spotted.
Serial killers do usually kill their own race. My feeling is that it’s a white man, quite possibly a racist one, because of the racist comments. Also because most of the GB4 (plus Shannon) had non-white boyfriends/children/relatives, may have been anger at ‘mixing’?
I doubt very much the killer is an alcoholic, because of the need to be in control. I can only really think of Dahmer. Coke or meth are more likely. But yes, using substances to target others.
I find it difficult to make my mind up about if the spacing was curated or just because of practicality. As far as we know, police haven’t confirmed if they were all dumped shortly after they died, or if they were moved there all in one go after being stored at another location for some time. I know the Lisk podcasters think that he moved them there all at once. But the police haven’t said if they could tell from the condition/type/cut of the burlap, decomposition and vegetation growth whether they were put there all together or separately. I’m sure they must be able to tell, so I don’t know if the LISK podcast people were told off the record that they were put there together.
There’s definitely an element of curation isn’t there? At least 2 victims were put there after Shannan disappeared. I’d think logically, because of the stuff with Shannan, the sensible tactic would have been to hide them much further away. The fact they were in spitting distance makes me think he wanted to find them there too.
Mountain_Kat
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Insomnia does weird things to me, so bear with me if this random thought comes out of left field and doesn't make a bit of sense, but... why would someone access Melissa's voice mail from TWO separate hotels the night she went missing ? Obviously, no one is going to just drive to one hotel, park, access her voicemail , and then drive to another hotel and repeat the process. Why would anyone do that ? So, someone had to have booked a room at The Best Western and someone had to have booked a room at Budget Inn. Was it the same person ? The only reason I can think of for 1 person to book 2 different rooms is if they were running 2 girls at the same time. Or maybe LISK booked one room, and saw a girl working out of a room at a different hotel ? But then, how on earth would Melissa fit into all this ? Why would SHE be at 2 different hotels ? And if she wasn't at either of these hotels...if she was already dead...did LISK just dump her body and then go hotel hopping with her phone? I mean...WTF ?!
It just drives me nuts that sometimes, when I'm thinking about this case, there are things like this that I can't for the life of me make any kind of sense of. Does it help me figure it out to know that Robert Blake got popped for trafficking at the very same Best Western that Melissa's voicemail was accessed from ? You'd think so...but no. It's just more random WTF's that confuse me even more.
It just drives me nuts that sometimes, when I'm thinking about this case, there are things like this that I can't for the life of me make any kind of sense of. Does it help me figure it out to know that Robert Blake got popped for trafficking at the very same Best Western that Melissa's voicemail was accessed from ? You'd think so...but no. It's just more random WTF's that confuse me even more.
eagleyeseymour
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It could be a number of different scenarios.
- It could have been a pimp, your explanation makes perfect sense.
- It could've been Melissa herself (provided it was accessed before she was killed) , she accesses it from the hotel she is working out of and then at the hotel of a John , men with families and secrets to hide may book their own hotel room, traveling business folks would also fit the bill.
- It could've been Melissa at one location and her killer at another.
- It could've been the killer at both, if this person is on the prowl, chances are they frequent hotels that escorts work out of
It could've been any combination of the above. I like your approach , just think that none of the aforementioned scenarios are far fetched.
Mountain_Kat
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Thanks for giving me a few different scenarios to consider, Eagle. I agree that none of the above theories are far fetched, but I just feel like I'm missing something that is both obvious and important. Maybe I'll try to go back and read Melissa's entire folder today and see if anything jumps out at me, although honestly, I feel like I've read it a hundred times over the years and still can't zero in on anything that is a big AHA for me. It just seems so clear to me that Melissa's situation was almost identical to Amber's situation, in that she accepted a date for a lot of money, got picked up by the client, and then possibly got taken to a room he booked for them. But why the second hotel ?
Like I said...it drives me nuts.
coldcaser
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The Best Western and Budget Inn are very close to each other. I’ve always thought her voicemail was accessed at two different locations to throw the cops off. Similar to choosing different locations when he made the taunting phone calls. I think it was a strategic move. Those two motels are under a 5 min drive away from each other. The Budget Inn has been a hotbed for drugs and prostitution for at the very least 20 years. Everyone in the area knows what goes on at that eyesore. I think driving to one hotel, accessing her voicemail, then driving to another to do the same is exactly what happened.
Mountain_Kat
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Interesting. I never realized the hotels were so close to each other.
Dumas911
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Calling someone a half-breed is exactly how a white racist would speak. Living in the south I’ve heard many people use that slur before. It definitely points to the killer as being a white male, middle to upper middle class, and I’d almost bet he’s had an experience with a former girlfriend or someone he was attracted to cheat with, or turn him down for another guy of a different race.
imstilla.grandma
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Ten years ago tonight, on Dec. 11, 2010, Suffolk County Police Officer John Malia and his cadaver dog made a startling discovery in the brush off Ocean Parkway in Gilgo Beach, Long Island.
They found the skeletal remains of Melissa Barthelemy, a petite CraigsList escort who had disappeared from the Bronx the year before. Her body was wrapped in burlap.
This week, as the tenth anniversary of the investigation was approaching, the police department released two more photos of the belt on a website they've set up, gilgonews.com. One of the pictures showed a piece of the weathered, black leather material on one end of the belt.
Varrone said he believes the killer could have used the Robert Moses Causeway to get to the barrier island from Long Island, traveling west to dispose of the bodies. The former chief reminded us that when Melissa Barthelemy first disappeared in 2009, the suspected killer used her cell phone multiple times to call Barthelemy’s little sister upstate.
He taunted the 16-year-old girl with nasty words about Barthelemy’s profession, something the family wasn’t aware of. At least one of his calls was made from the Penn Station area in Manhattan.
The case was being investigated by the NYPD, because Barthelemy had vanished from her Bronx apartment. But it was Suffolk County Detective John Malia, along with his K-9 dog, who found Barthelemy in the brush at Gilgo on Dec. 11, 2010. At least two of the first four women discovered were wrapped in burlap.
A man who remains a person of interest in the Gilgo case — Manorville carpenter John Bittrolff — was convicted of killing two sex workers in the early 1990s. Their bodies were discovered in the Manorville area in sexual poses, with their left shoes missing. Bittrolff’s wife doesn’t believe he killed anyone, even though his DNA was found on the two victims he was convicted of murdering.
https://www.pix11.com/news/local-ne...ter-gilgo-beach-serial-killer-remains-elusive
They found the skeletal remains of Melissa Barthelemy, a petite CraigsList escort who had disappeared from the Bronx the year before. Her body was wrapped in burlap.
This week, as the tenth anniversary of the investigation was approaching, the police department released two more photos of the belt on a website they've set up, gilgonews.com. One of the pictures showed a piece of the weathered, black leather material on one end of the belt.
Varrone said he believes the killer could have used the Robert Moses Causeway to get to the barrier island from Long Island, traveling west to dispose of the bodies. The former chief reminded us that when Melissa Barthelemy first disappeared in 2009, the suspected killer used her cell phone multiple times to call Barthelemy’s little sister upstate.
He taunted the 16-year-old girl with nasty words about Barthelemy’s profession, something the family wasn’t aware of. At least one of his calls was made from the Penn Station area in Manhattan.
The case was being investigated by the NYPD, because Barthelemy had vanished from her Bronx apartment. But it was Suffolk County Detective John Malia, along with his K-9 dog, who found Barthelemy in the brush at Gilgo on Dec. 11, 2010. At least two of the first four women discovered were wrapped in burlap.
A man who remains a person of interest in the Gilgo case — Manorville carpenter John Bittrolff — was convicted of killing two sex workers in the early 1990s. Their bodies were discovered in the Manorville area in sexual poses, with their left shoes missing. Bittrolff’s wife doesn’t believe he killed anyone, even though his DNA was found on the two victims he was convicted of murdering.
https://www.pix11.com/news/local-ne...ter-gilgo-beach-serial-killer-remains-elusive
516witchdoctors
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I don’t know where the two hotels comes up other than that they share a cellphone tower. The hotels are also about a mile away from one another. One is a real hotel and the other is more of a motel with outside entrances.
My guess is if LISK wanted to be less seen or not have Melissa be seen at all that the motel would be the better choice. Those places on LI tend to also accept cash payment and also have hourly options as opposed to night rates.
That motel should be noted that a prostitute overdosed and died in this past fall. She was known the be a Nassau County Police informant and because so they were allowed to use her phone after her death. They setup a John named William Spencer who thought he was going to meet her and exchange opioids for sex but was met by law enforcement and taken into custody. Spencer is a well known Doctor who makes medical decisions for not only Suffolk county but the whole island and is also a legistalor on Long Island and runs a pediatric facility for children.
That same motel is the last street before jurisdiction turns from Nassau County to Suffolk. Sound familiar? Same issues were had in Gilgo where LISK seemed to know county lines very well. This motel is just before road called, you got it ‘county line road’. Eerily enough Shannan Gilbert’s grave that John Ray was able to obtain as a donation to the family is about 2 miles from there in a poverty driven area of a town called Amityville. Fans of music familiar with De La Soul is from this area. This area of Amityville is the not the waterfront million dollar homes where the Defoe horror house murder a took place.
ListeningAndWatching
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The repetition of that county line/jurisdiction game speaks volumes doesn’t it?
Keylimeeye
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Isn't it weird how professionals high in their fields are willing to throw it all away for kicks? Doesn't it seem to defy reason? It makes me wonder if its part of some sort of cult initiation ritual. The fact that Spencer showed up in his county vehicle with only 2 pills on him is just weird.
goodfellas
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Does anyone else wonder if the killer must have been a repeat client of Melissa because he knew she had a sister, her name and things about her in the pre-Facebook/ smart phone days? Melissa's mother says in the LISK podcast that Melissa's sister was stored in her phone only by her name and not as "sis" or anything. Do we know if that is for a fact or her mom guessing? There really wasn't social media then right that LISk could have used to look up her sister and her biracial background? If LISK was a regular I see it as very likely she'd chat about her sister coming to visit...oh, sorry I can't do that Sunday, my sister is coming for the week, etc etc, normal friendly chatting if she trusted him. To me that's the likeliest reason he'd know her sister's name and also helps bolster the theories that all four women trusted him because he was a known, safe, previous client.
ETA- Dave's account of Amber's last call makes it seem it was a NEW client but again we don't know that for sure.
ETA- Dave's account of Amber's last call makes it seem it was a NEW client but again we don't know that for sure.
ListeningAndWatching
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As close as Melissa and Amanda were reported as being, I would venture to guess there were photos of them together on Melissa’s phone. Maybe some texts like: ‘where are you?/ we had plans!?’ sort of thing. I remember in one documentary Melissa’s mother said that she and Amanda had plans for the weekend she went missing. I’m sure her sister had to have called and left voicemails or messages that were probably accessed.
Wouldn’t they have phone records of voicemail being checked? And this was 2009 don’t forget, we forget what phones are like post iPhone/ smart phone. Did any of the GB4 have blackberries or iPhones or anything besides Nokia’s and flip phones where you really wouldn’t store family photos or many photos of any quality at all.
Another disturbing theory is she was alive for some time as he taunts and got information out of her . I truly hope that isn’t true for her sake.
ListeningAndWatching
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I did take into account the older style of phones, but in 2009 I personally had many photos on my cell. This is not to say everyone else did, but it wasn’t so uncommon around that time.
I think it’s highly probable there was some sort of emotional torture to go along with the physical struggle that must have preceded the actual murders. What we do know is that at least two of the LISK victims (or three depending on who you choose to include as one of the LISK’s victims) cell phones were used (probably post-mortem) to contact friends and family of those that were killed. So there was definitely some sort of
Kill-Now, Do-Additional-Research-Later going on here. Of course, the emotional mind games being played on the victims’ loved ones as he harassed them was probably something our sadistic perp viewed as the icing on the homicidal cake.
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Baldanders
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All from "Lost Girls"
Melissa last seen alive on July 12, 2009 (Sunday afternoon).
Sunday night: [Melissa's] phone records show a call to Blaze that evening under a minute long. It might have gone to voicemail.
Later that same night "... phone records showed access to her [Melissa's] voicemail and that the calls were traced [two weeks later] to a cell tower in Massapequa, Long Island.
Amanda receives the first of 8 calls on July 16 (Thursday). All calls were placed in the evening. The killer would only talk to Amanda. Lynn did pick up the phone once, but the killer hung up immediately.
Starting with the 3rd call, police traced the signal to cell towers in Times Square & Madison Square Garden. Exact location could not be pinpointed due to short duration of call. Triangulation takes time.
Around the same time police are tracing calls to TS & MSG (nearly two weeks after she went missing) they also follow-up on the cell tower ping in Massapequa. Police visit two nearly motels, Budget Inn and Best Western, to speak to the staff and review security tapes, and find nothing. Police only visit these hotels because they are in closest proximity to the cell tower.
Last call to Amanda was received on August 26 (Wednesday) and the killer said "I'm watching your sister's body rot." Per above, we are left to assume that police traced this signal to cell towers in TS & MSG. An April 15, 2011 article in The Atlantic suggests that this call occurred around 1am - but not clear if this means the call was placed on Tuesday night or Wednesday night. (Regardless, who is up that late strolling around midtown on a weekday?)
Blaze aka John Terry claimed he'd also received strange calls - about 30 he said, over 8 months - from someone he described as a white guy. The caller said 'You liked to do some crazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at.' The police traced the caller's number to a disposable phone registered in the name of Mickey Mouse.
"Sometime after Melissa's funeral, the coroner's office in Suffolk County informed Melissa's family that they had found more remains along the side of the highway with her daughter's DNA. The family was never told where the remains were found or what had happened: whether the body had been dismembered or an animal had gotten to Melissa's remains before they were discovered. No one was told whether finding part of Melissa elsewhere meant another link between the GB4 and the other six bodies found along the beach..."
And according to an April 15, 2011 article in The Atlantic "... 8 of the 10 bodies found were wrapped in burlap." The article did not source that info.
Melissa last seen alive on July 12, 2009 (Sunday afternoon).
Sunday night: [Melissa's] phone records show a call to Blaze that evening under a minute long. It might have gone to voicemail.
Later that same night "... phone records showed access to her [Melissa's] voicemail and that the calls were traced [two weeks later] to a cell tower in Massapequa, Long Island.
Amanda receives the first of 8 calls on July 16 (Thursday). All calls were placed in the evening. The killer would only talk to Amanda. Lynn did pick up the phone once, but the killer hung up immediately.
Starting with the 3rd call, police traced the signal to cell towers in Times Square & Madison Square Garden. Exact location could not be pinpointed due to short duration of call. Triangulation takes time.
Around the same time police are tracing calls to TS & MSG (nearly two weeks after she went missing) they also follow-up on the cell tower ping in Massapequa. Police visit two nearly motels, Budget Inn and Best Western, to speak to the staff and review security tapes, and find nothing. Police only visit these hotels because they are in closest proximity to the cell tower.
Last call to Amanda was received on August 26 (Wednesday) and the killer said "I'm watching your sister's body rot." Per above, we are left to assume that police traced this signal to cell towers in TS & MSG. An April 15, 2011 article in The Atlantic suggests that this call occurred around 1am - but not clear if this means the call was placed on Tuesday night or Wednesday night. (Regardless, who is up that late strolling around midtown on a weekday?)
Blaze aka John Terry claimed he'd also received strange calls - about 30 he said, over 8 months - from someone he described as a white guy. The caller said 'You liked to do some crazy stuff with Melissa. I know where you be at.' The police traced the caller's number to a disposable phone registered in the name of Mickey Mouse.
"Sometime after Melissa's funeral, the coroner's office in Suffolk County informed Melissa's family that they had found more remains along the side of the highway with her daughter's DNA. The family was never told where the remains were found or what had happened: whether the body had been dismembered or an animal had gotten to Melissa's remains before they were discovered. No one was told whether finding part of Melissa elsewhere meant another link between the GB4 and the other six bodies found along the beach..."
And according to an April 15, 2011 article in The Atlantic "... 8 of the 10 bodies found were wrapped in burlap." The article did not source that info.