VT - 2 WhtChildren 1 WhtFem Adult, 9-11 13-15 35-45, off logging Rd, May'35

Discussion in 'The Unidentified' started by rats, Jul 30, 2016.

  1. rats

    rats Where is Justice for the Jane and John Does?

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    9-11: https://identifyus.org/en/cases/13507

    [​IMG]

    Unsure sex, 52 in. tall, insufficient DNA for profiling. Dentals will be entered later.

    13-15: https://identifyus.org/en/cases/13506
    Unsure sex, 59 in. tall, insufficient DNA for profiling. Dentals available and entered.

    Doesn't have a recon.

    35-45: https://identifyus.org/en/cases/13505

    [​IMG]

    Female, 62 in tall. DNA sample submitted - tests complete, dentals available and entered.

    -

    Case #: 15MB000503
    Date found: May 15, 1935
    Location: Burnham Dr., (East?) Middlebury, VT (Addison Co.)
    Body conditions (x3): Not recognizable - near complete or complete skeleton.
    Probable year of death: 1932 - 1934

    Circumstances:
    On 05-15-1935 the skeletol [skeletal] remains of three persons were found off of an old logging road in East Middlebury, Vermont. The location has recently been identified as off of Burnham Drive, a road that did not exist at the time. The three skeletons found together were of a female age 35 to 45, a juvenile teen age 13 to 15 and a child age 9 to 11.

    Things found with the body: pearl buttons (similar to those used on pajamas at the time), feathers (possibly from a pillow) and a canvas awning with wheel pulleys still attached.

    Why doesn't the older child have a reconstruction? Why wouldn't they know the gender of the older one? The younger one looks like a boy... At least IMO.

    From Savage Watch - Vermont's Cold Cases ( http://www.ctcoldcases.com/vermont.html Near the bottom)

    Family Murder? Who Were They?
    It is perhaps one of the oldest cold cases in Vermont's history. In June of 1935, three human skeletons were discovered near Route 116 in the town of East Middlebury. They were an adult female possibly around the age of 45 and a two children, male around 14-16 years of age and a female around 10 years of age. To date, their identities have never been established. It is presumed that they may have come from some affluence as the male child had several thousands of dollars of unfinished dental work done on his mouth. According to news reports a hunter reported a terrible odor in the area back in 1932. It is possible that the victims were family members and killed back then. Two of the bodies were laid out next to each other while the third was place on top of them at a right angle. The area was found off of a hillside trail in an area that did not see much human traffic. and police believed at the time that the three were murdered elsewhere. The three had been slain by a gunshot wound to the head by a .38 caliber type of weapon. Found near the victims was a striped awning, old automobile curtains and a woolen blanket. Over the years, it's been theorized that the victims may have been Eastern European Jewish, Turkish or even Syrian. It is unknown if the case is still being investigated by the Vermont State Police.
     

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  3. Irish_Eyes

    Irish_Eyes New Member

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  4. rats

    rats Where is Justice for the Jane and John Does?

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    Wow, thank you, Irish_Eyes! That was really nice and informative!

    I honestly wonder how this is gonna get solved TBH :(
     
  5. rats

    rats Where is Justice for the Jane and John Does?

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    Only one person on NamUs is a possible for anyone:

    Olga Mauger, September 1934 https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/27783/1/ 21 when she went missing.(way younger than the age range for the adult, but I'll take what I can get) there's still a very slim chance it's her.

    Mary Moroney also went missing pre-1935, however, she was 2 when she went missing, and would be around 6 by the time they found these kids -- younger than the youngest's age range of 9-11. All male MPs in NamUs are too old.

    One child listed in Charley could possibly be one of them:

    http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/h/horst_melvin.html 4 when he went missing, would have been 8 by 1932 (youngest is 9-11) and would have been the top of the age range, 11, by 1935. However, it's probably very unlikely.

    Another possible for the adult is Dorothy Arnold, she would have been 47 in 1932 (just above the age range) http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/a/arnold_dorothy.html However, still very unlikely.
     
  6. Dogface

    Dogface New Member

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    Just bouncing ideas here...were the bodies positioned in a way that was a message? It sounds almost like they were in the shape of an H?

    Could this have been a mistress to someone who was well off? Someone who didn't want them coming to light? For some reason the body positions stand out to me, like the scarlet letter or something...H for Harlot? People back then tended to have large families and remain closer in locality, however, if people did move away, would they have likely stayed in touch?

    This is a sad case, I hope one day they can have their names back.
     
  7. vermontaigne

    vermontaigne New Member

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    An article from 1935 says that a local man claimed that the bodies had been there since at least '32, because he sighted what he believed were animal remains there. If that's so, this could be some Prohibition Era mob hit. Nowadays, forensics would have found out what make/model/year the vehicle the drapes came from that were found with them.
     
  8. Tssiemer

    Tssiemer TRACY

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    How did they get DNA?? Dug them up?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. cvaldez1975

    cvaldez1975 New Member

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    I'm glad there is a thread on this because I love reading historical stuff but this one will probably not be solved unfortunately
     
  10. MelmothTheLost

    MelmothTheLost New Member

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    Why not? Many historic UIDs have been exhumed in recent years precisely to obtain DNA and create visual reconstructions.
     
  11. MelmothTheLost

    MelmothTheLost New Member

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    Since DNA could be extracted only for the adult female there's nothing to say that she was the mother of the children. She could have been a completely unrelated nanny. She could also have been aunt or similar relation since so many young women did not marry in the decades following WWI because of the huge losses of young men in the trenches and elsewhere. This was much more the case in Europe than in the US, but she could of course have been an immigrant as a young adult. However all of that said, I do think this was a mother and her two children disposed of by a husband or established partner.

    I see there has been speculation that they may have been Jewish or from the Middle East but I would have though Jewishness would have been picked up in the woman's DNA.

    One hopes that if there are suitable advances in DNA collection and analysis they will exhume the bodies for further testing.

    What seems to be missing is any mention of isotope testing. Although DNA is a biological marker and can deteriorate, isotopes are chemical and very stable, especially in teeth which are the longest enduring part of the body. Testing would probably establish whether any of the three were US born (and if so from which region) or from overseas. If they were European immigrants we would know roughly where they grew up.
     
  12. Earth

    Earth New Member

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    I really hope the Allenstown group will not end up like this When I read about this case, it reminded me of them.
     
  13. Alleykins

    Alleykins New Member

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    It could also have something to do with the Great Depression, depending on how long their remains have been there. They may have been affluent prior to it and hit hard times, like a lot of people did during the Depression, and moved from somewhere else to find work.
    Would isotopes help very much being so old? Most of its based on water, which would have been mostly from wells that time.
     
  14. rats

    rats Where is Justice for the Jane and John Does?

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    Thats true! I didn't think about that.

    IMO it would definitely be worth a shot.
     
  15. Alleykins

    Alleykins New Member

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    Isotopes may be worth it, but it would depend on how much scientists know about drinking water from that long ago. They may not be able to interpret the results accurately if they have no data to compare it to from the 1930s and further back. Pollen testing may be more revealing, if it's obtainable. Man, I wished I'd known about palynology as a possible career path when I was in college! I don't think I'll ever get over not knowing about that field existed.
     
  16. Alleykins

    Alleykins New Member

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  17. Alleykins

    Alleykins New Member

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    Dorothy Arnold:
    [​IMG]
     

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  18. Alleykins

    Alleykins New Member

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    I was thinking that a possible motive might be that Dorothy didn't inherit anything when her parents passed away; her father was convinced she was dead and didn't see the point in leaving her anything. Her mother died in 1928.
     
  19. MelmothTheLost

    MelmothTheLost New Member

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    Very much so since well water would contain the isotopes from the local aquifers feeding the wells.

    I would imagine that rural and semi-rural areas would still be dependant on wells at that time but surely urban and semi-urban areas would have had piped reservoir water?
     
  20. Alleykins

    Alleykins New Member

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    Yes, but is isotopes information from well water, or city water, for that matter, available from 1930s and before? I'm no scientist but it seems to me that they couldn't base it off of today's results, and how would they know what was in each well? Unless they had the chemical make up of water from nearly a hundred years ago, I'm not sure that's useful or possible.
     
  21. MelmothTheLost

    MelmothTheLost New Member

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    No scientist here either! However I'm going by the fact that the underlying geology doesn't change, ie rainwater filters through the same rocks at the same rate today as it did 100 or 1,000 years ago and those rocks are the aquifer which feeds the water supply, so the isotope content should be unchanging, so much so that here in the UK archaeologists can use comparisons between modern and ancient remains to determine where a body grew up. It's used, for example, to map the origins of historic and prehistoric migrants into and around the UK, such as determining which parts of the Roman Empire migrants came from.
     

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