WA WA - Seattle, WhtFem 30-50, 159UFWA, alias 'Mary Anderson', copper IUD, breast surgery scars, Oct'96

[GloSeattle]

I think we can assume that she was depressed but not necessarily about her weight. For all we know, she was always this size and fine with it--she took good care of herself.

Apologies again if you thought I said she WAS depressed because of being obese, I said "Perhaps." Anything is possible... I was thinking out loud and typing hypotheticals on what was known, isn't known (I had no idea about labels so perhaps the KCME knows if she had Canadian toothpaste or American toothpaste - that was not revealed) and what could be. I know laxatives are taken many times either because of symptoms or for eating disorders. She may have been dandy with her weight, for all we know. She had nice things, but I don't know that she took good care of herself - she was taking medication for something - perhaps genetic, perhaps as a result of her weight: HBP, or thyroid issues... But a decrease in water, through overuse of laxatives IF she did that due to having an eating disorder like binging , and the use of cyanide which deprives heart and brain of oxygen (water and oxygen are essential for the heart and brain) would certainly seal her doom and remove any doubt she had about the cyanide being effective - she did a very good job of shutting her body down quickly imo of course, and always not an absolute as no one knows... well the KCME knows if she probably had thyroid issues, or an eating disorder they weigh everything out during an autopsy. If there were any abnormalities they would have caught it...however with depravation of oxygen comes tissue death, so at least the stomach and part of the upper intestine would have degraded pretty well in 2 days time when she was discovered, as well as her heart. I'm not sure how they allow for poison's in damaged organs combined with decomposition... I'm sure it's fascinating to measure these things and research with temperature, time, amount of poison in the system, blood samples looking at fluids in the body, viewing stomach contents and intestines to see what was last consumed, what deficiencies could be shown, etc... I'm a licensed phlebotomist and medical assistant and only deal with living tissues and samples in OB/GYN as well as family medicine, so living is where my knowledge stops.

 

[GloSeattle]

I was going to mention the same thing.

Also, I remember that some women trying to diet used to carry packets of Crystal Light with them so they could have it with restaurant meals or at work, since it wasn't commonly available in vending machines or as a fountain drink. It was very easy to just empty a packet into a glass of water.

Women who travel a lot often carry an iron with them so they can keep their clothes neatly pressed -- they don't want to look like they're "living out of suitcases." It's one of the things that makes me think she might have been traveling for at least a few days before she arrived at this place.

Reading this about Crystal Light made me think of dieting, and perhaps why she wasn't happy with her weight? I mean, otherwise why not have a Big Bottle of Mountain Dew or Coke to mix the cyanide in - anything to kill the taste of it?

 

[FiveFelines]

Reading this about Crystal Light made me think of dieting, and perhaps why she wasn't happy with her weight? I mean, otherwise why not have a Big Bottle of Mountain Dew or Coke to mix the cyanide in - anything to kill the taste of it?

Very true. It's possible she liked the taste of Crystal Light (I have always been slim but was oddly really into CL in the mid-90s), but seems more likely it was for weight loss. Did she bring it with her out of habit? Because a) you're right; it would be easier to just buy a bottle of soda to kill the taste and b) who cares about weight loss when you're planning to kill yourself?

 

[GloSeattle]

Very true. It's possible she liked the taste of Crystal Light (I have always been slim but was oddly really into CL in the mid-90s), but seems more likely it was for weight loss. Did she bring it with her out of habit? Because a) you're right; it would be easier to just buy a bottle of soda to kill the taste and b) who cares about weight loss when you're planning to kill yourself?

And to add another question to the mix, as we don't have the autopsy results: What if she had the Metamucil and Crystal Light to "cleanse her system" like remove ALL the things she'd eaten over the last few days with laxative's and a flush of fluids so no one could ID what she'd eaten and perhaps where she'd been, what medication she'd taken, etc... Perhaps the Metamucil and Crystal Light not only made the poison delivery more effective but covered up her past even more, hence the lack of information on her as well? (I've read and saw and old cold case - think it was mentioned a few posts back - where they id'd plants left on the underside of a truck... I'm sure the stomach contents might reveal a location. And if that is the case, what would one want to hide eating that would be so telling, even in the 90's lots of fast food, supermarkets with food from everywhere.... what was consumed that might have been something to point to her location? I mean again, if that was another reason for the Metamucil and Crystal Light. I'm going to look at what things are stark in the digestive tract and helps investigators ID unknowns see if I find anything there... There might be specific things in one's diet that can point to an area... isn't water one of them?

 

[FiveFelines]

I was thinking about Mary and the cyanide earlier. Am I wrong in remembering that the KCME didn't know what subtype of cyanide she used? There have been some suicides here in Boston over the last few years and they have almost always involved people (usually students) who work in labs.

Some basic info about cyanide and cyanide poisoning. I don't know if this adds anything, but thought I'd place here for reference.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

 

[GloSeattle]

I was thinking about Mary and the cyanide earlier. Am I wrong in remembering that the KCME didn't know what subtype of cyanide she used? There have been some suicides here in Boston over the last few years and they have almost always involved people (usually students) who work in labs.

Some basic info about cyanide and cyanide poisoning. I don't know if this adds anything, but thought I'd place here for reference.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanide_poisoning

KCME did say in one of the articles that they were unable to match the origin of the cyanide she used, yes. They had searched and went along the lines of the mines using it, and apparently it didn't match any of the properties that these mines used chemically. If she mixed a variety of samples from mines (if she was a mine vendor and traveled a lot) the composition would change, but I'm sure they looked at that too. If she used the nail polish remover which turns into cyanide in the body as it's metabolized then I'm not sure how they'd test for that - could it be this is why it couldn't be identified? Wish we had a retired ME on this thread who could tell us at least generally, how these things are looked at, especially with respect to the tech they had in the mid 90's. Right now, we are in such a heightened information era that many things we would consider normal to do in testing didn't exist back then. And given that, we don't know what information was saved back in the case for future testing. We do know they have a sample for DNA according to NAMus's notation's on the DNA sample, but whatever it is they've not run it as of yet. Being again, this is such a cold case, it might be years before we know the results or matches if any and then they couldn't reveal them to us because of privacy issues and positive ID of the victim. So I'm hoping if I see the DOE listing and NAMus listing disappear off the UI's then a quick call to my local media would get them on this again and we will have a news story that could fill in the gaps. Until then.... LoL I love those links, FiveFelines! I had one too from the CDC that was most helpful for information purposes: http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/cyanide/basics/facts.asp

 

[annemc2]

I sure wish they would do isotope testing on her - like they did for Calidonia Jane Doe.

Oh wait - do they have teeth? I don't remember.

 

[GloSeattle]

I sure wish they would do isotope testing on her - like they did for Calidonia Jane Doe.

Oh wait - do they have teeth? I don't remember.

They are in possession of her partial denture plate... they apparently did imaging of her teeth. She was buried long ago so if they needed testing on her actual teeth they'd have to exhume her. I doubt that would happen unless/until a possible match was found for this UI. :-( I heard in the case of Calidonia Jane Doe it was "...one of very few cases set in an American jurisdiction to make use of the growing science of forensic palynology" where they actually tested for pollen on the clothing! Apparently, this UI was so young her age kept this in the spotlight. Our dear Mary was in her 30's or early 40's and isn't viewed by LE in the same way, plus add to this our Cold Case Division was shut down due to budget cuts as well.

 

[GloSeattle]

Looking at historical facts around October 1996 I noticed that there was a decision by the State of Washington Supreme Court refused to look at an appeal of a David Lewis Rice, who had killed Charles Goldmark and his entire family December 26th, 1985 - this was published in the Seattle Times on October 6, 1996. David Lewis Rice had beaten the family with an ordinary iron for clothes and then went on to stab them to finish them off. He was in a VERY right wing Christian Organization which was anti-Semitic called the Fox's out of Florida who had a chapter in Seattle. He chose them, the Goldmark's, because he believed they were Jewish. He was sentenced to death. They describe David as a drifter and I can't find any information on him, if he had family, or not. David Lewis Rice did receive a reversal of his life sentence the year after Mary died. I'll keep searching but if anyone else has any luck on personal information on this guy... perhaps Mary was not here for a trial but traveled to here for an appeals hearing in Olympia and when they refused to hear the appeal perhaps this made her go over the edge and she arrived in Seattle, studied a bit of the addresses in New York at the library across the street, used the phone book looked up the number for the hotel across the street called for reservations and she had her iron with her in her suitcase? Stretch, yes... but what else do I have to go on LoL Let me know if you find anything on this David Lewis Rice? Might be just another dead end. Will keep searching old stories, and this one to see if there's any info out there on if he had a sister, a wife, a girlfriend?

 

[newone]

Looking at historical facts around October 1996 I noticed that there was a decision by the State of Washington Supreme Court refused to look at an appeal of a David Lewis Rice, who had killed Charles Goldmark and his entire family December 26th, 1985 - this was published in the Seattle Times on October 6, 1996. David Lewis Rice had beaten the family with an ordinary iron for clothes and then went on to stab them to finish them off. He was in a VERY right wing Christian Organization which was anti-Semitic called the Fox's out of Florida who had a chapter in Seattle. He chose them, the Goldmark's, because he believed they were Jewish. He was sentenced to death. They describe David as a drifter and I can't find any information on him, if he had family, or not. David Lewis Rice did receive a reversal of his life sentence the year after Mary died. I'll keep searching but if anyone else has any luck on personal information on this guy... perhaps Mary was not here for a trial but traveled to here for an appeals hearing in Olympia and when they refused to hear the appeal perhaps this made her go over the edge and she arrived in Seattle, studied a bit of the addresses in New York at the library across the street, used the phone book looked up the number for the hotel across the street called for reservations and she had her iron with her in her suitcase? Stretch, yes... but what else do I have to go on LoL Let me know if you find anything on this David Lewis Rice? Might be just another dead end. Will keep searching old stories, and this one to see if there's any info out there on if he had a sister, a wife, a girlfriend?

YIKES!! that iron is a bit startling.....hmm any dob on David Lewis Rice?? -- may be able to find him/family etc on ancestry.com

 

[FiveFelines]

And to add another question to the mix, as we don't have the autopsy results: What if she had the Metamucil and Crystal Light to "cleanse her system" like remove ALL the things she'd eaten over the last few days with laxative's and a flush of fluids so no one could ID what she'd eaten and perhaps where she'd been, what medication she'd taken, etc... Perhaps the Metamucil and Crystal Light not only made the poison delivery more effective but covered up her past even more, hence the lack of information on her as well? (I've read and saw and old cold case - think it was mentioned a few posts back - where they id'd plants left on the underside of a truck... I'm sure the stomach contents might reveal a location. And if that is the case, what would one want to hide eating that would be so telling, even in the 90's lots of fast food, supermarkets with food from everywhere.... what was consumed that might have been something to point to her location? I mean again, if that was another reason for the Metamucil and Crystal Light. I'm going to look at what things are stark in the digestive tract and helps investigators ID unknowns see if I find anything there... There might be specific things in one's diet that can point to an area... isn't water one of them?

I think you're right on the money with this idea. I was doing some more research on suicides by cyanide and found some cases that might be of interest. In one from 1992, a man obtained cyanide and wrote about his experiences on an online group (alt.suicide). I think it's entirely possible that Mary was a member of that group or at least used it to research her own death. Check it out (please don't read if you find such things triggering, guys);

http://ash.notearthday.org/conibear.html
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.suicide.holiday/aD4xDFKAD5I

Description of a 2002 suicide by cyanide:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-VIRTUAL-PATH-TO-SUICIDE-Depressed-student-2611315.php

I don't think Mary had to have had an occupational connection to cyanide at all after reading these posts.

 

[GloSeattle]

YIKES!! that iron is a bit startling.....hmm any dob on David Lewis Rice?? -- may be able to find him/family etc on ancestry.com

All I can see is he was born 1958 no month, he was in his 20's when he killed the family. His family argued, it was reported, for his appeal for the death penalty sentence stating he had never shown any signs of aggression before. Given the iron with Mary, the Bible, the same approximate age of this offender and the October 6th Appeal the Supreme Court wouldn't look at, (subsequently later they did and gave him life after Mary died) it was a long shot but the iron stood out to me...

 

[GloSeattle]

I think you're right on the money with this idea. I was doing some more research on suicides by cyanide and found some cases that might be of interest. In one from 1992, a man obtained cyanide and wrote about his experiences on an online group (alt.suicide). I think it's entirely possible that Mary was a member of that group or at least used it to research her own death. Check it out (please don't read if you find such things triggering, guys);

http://ash.notearthday.org/conibear.html
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.suicide.holiday/aD4xDFKAD5I

Description of a 2002 suicide by cyanide:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-VIRTUAL-PATH-TO-SUICIDE-Depressed-student-2611315.php

I don't think Mary had to have had an occupational connection to cyanide at all after reading these posts.

Amazing! I heard of A.S.H. a long long time ago and had forgotten all about it! Having the library across the street and it being 1996 a time when many were just getting their first PC's for home... Did you read the founder started the group in 1990 and got divorced, got a dog and got happy and abandoned the site and was surprised it became a magnet for suicides? If she was a member she might of posted, or she might have just been an observer too. Great score! Reading the one Gonzalez girl's way to access potassium cyanide was very interesting, ordering it that way. She had to have knowledge that you need to order particular chemicals in addition to the potassium cyanide in order to avoid suspicion - as the vendor indicated it looked like a legitimate jewelry store order. Again, however, KCME could NOT ID the source/where it was purchased. So if Mary did purchase it in a similar way it was untraceable to LE. I'm more of the mind she either gathered small amounts and mixed them to keep them from being ID'd and to keep away anyone who might look and figure out who she really was, utilized the chemical used to remove fake nails (consumed it and it was able to make cyanide in her body as it metabolized), or she obtained the cyanide from a source outside of the US and therefore did not match any chemical signatures known in the US. Either way she had to be covert in order to get it... perhaps not difficult to be, but to do so without leaving a signature from the source is amazingly brilliant and would point to some knowledge/research even if it was at a library for a week. I see the clothing she had differently now, as the lows again were in the 40's in September... 7 days clothing, I was doing my search on newspaper events in Seattle and surrounding area for the weeks preceding her suicide. Also, I searched Canada's missing, New York's, New Jersey's, and was in the process of doing searches in Connecticut and Vermont and Massachusetts. I did search in California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Florida as well. So far, no one but Elaine pops out in her age range. Again, she might be disenfranchised from her family due to a feud and they may just go on thinking she still hasn't forgiven them and therefore has not been reported missing. Again, great find, FiveFelines!

 

[FiveFelines]

Thanks! I had totally forgotten that alt groups and listserves were around in the early- to mid-90s. You can still read the old posts from back then and there are some interesting convos about how to obtain cyanide.

 

[GloSeattle]

I think you're right on the money with this idea. I was doing some more research on suicides by cyanide and found some cases that might be of interest. In one from 1992, a man obtained cyanide and wrote about his experiences on an online group (alt.suicide). I think it's entirely possible that Mary was a member of that group or at least used it to research her own death. Check it out (please don't read if you find such things triggering, guys);

http://ash.notearthday.org/conibear.html
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/alt.suicide.holiday/aD4xDFKAD5I

Description of a 2002 suicide by cyanide:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/A-VIRTUAL-PATH-TO-SUICIDE-Depressed-student-2611315.php

I don't think Mary had to have had an occupational connection to cyanide at all after reading these posts.

Another thought on this is, the example you gave of David Conibear: he was from Canada, he worked at a college so he would have access to chemicals in their lab's that would be identifiable to LE. She might have been inspired by him, known of him (she might have come from an area close by or read about it) also, David wrote Psalms... Perhaps this is a bigger clue than we think? (David Lewis Rice and David Conibear? I'm going to look to see if maybe she posted something before and after his suicide - again brilliant find!

 

[GloSeattle]

Thanks! I had totally forgotten that alt groups and listserves were around in the early- to mid-90s. You can still read the old posts from back then and there are some interesting convos about how to obtain cyanide.

Yes, I was on many Newsgroups/Boards back in those days. I bought my first PC for Christmas December 1995. Those boards usually were run by the internet providers you signed with, like MSN (Microsoft), Prodigy, AOL, etc.... Some of them were "members only" groups so we might have problems finding archived posts in those unless they were released for research but I doubt it. None of my posts on the old Newsgroups on MSN are visible now. Yes, agree very interesting convo's on how to obtain it... but LE would still be able to ID it's source, as they have in all of the cases. What makes this case unique is they haven't been able to :-(

 

[GloSeattle]

Just read, Canada does NOT have a DNA data base???? OMG http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/without-a-trace/article19800319/?page=all

 

[Laughing]

Read this one for the first time today:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...e-Poisoning-in-Hotel-Oct-93&highlight=cyanide

 

[GloSeattle]

Read this one for the first time today:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...e-Poisoning-in-Hotel-Oct-93&highlight=cyanide

Fascinating find! Did you read the link off the websleuth's link on Nitroprusside? http://cyanidepoisoning.blogspot.com/2004/10/autopsy-finding.html There's a particular person they found that worked in a chemistry lab they found it in his stomach and a container of it days later. It's used for hypertension (High Blood Pressure) but if overdosed can be fatal. Now, as a medication, and with the stomach contents it should be able to be ID'd, as it would be manufactured, so LE would have gotten that/KCME. As a chemical in a lab it should be too...but with the pill bottle, what if she saved back her HBP med's and od'd on Nitroprusside? It would show as cyanide in her system... Much food for thought. I'm sure that our pathologists would know this, though. Could that be the medication she was taking? So many questions and no answers to them :-( Note: Also adding: Sodium nitroprusside spectrum is used to calibrate Mössbauer spectrometers, an optical machine which measures gamma ray absorption. Pointing to another possibility, like David Conibear working in a University in IT had access to the college lab..hmmm Used in Environmental Sciences, Chemical Engineering, and industry (steel industry) as well as academic settings. "Mössbauer spectroscopy is a versatile technique that can be used to provide information in many areas of science such as Physics, Chemistry, Biology and Metallurgy." Source: http://www.rsc.org/membership/networking/interestgroups/mossbauerspect/intropart1.asp

Sorry but this points back to gold mining again: http://books.google.com/books/about/Applications_of_Mössbauer_Spectroscopy.html?id=JVHLNwAACAAJ

 

[GloSeattle]

Looking at David Conibear, him being from Ottawa, Ontario Canada, working in a college with access to cyanide...then looking further now again into gold mining in Canada there are SO Many gold mines in Ontario: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gold_mines_in_Canada I'm focusing on missing in Ontario Province.