Identified! WA - Snohomish Co., WhtFem 516UFWA, 15-22, hitchhiker, Aug 1977 - Lisa Roberts

[Kodiak]

I did some research of what was going on around here in the Everett/Seattle area for August 1977. Didn't find nothing much for the Everett area, but...

There was a KISS concert on August 12, 1977 at the Seattle Center Coliseum.

I wonder if SJD was in town for (or was on her way to) the KISS concert around the time she was murdered? Back then, KISS was a huge favorite amongst the teens and kids in this area as I fondly remember having my KISS lunchbox and records at a very young age at that time. Perhaps she traveled into town to attend? If so, alone or with others?

http://www.kissopolis.com/2009/07/today-in-kisstory-1977_08.html

Love Gun Tour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kodiak]

here is a new wild theory i have been mulling over. maybe convos with the LE will totally dismiss it, or someone (like anthrobones) can tell me why a misidentification may have occurred initially.

according to this interview: http://missingpiecesshow.homestead.com/MissingPiecesEpisode96Archive.html

the ME originally thought Jane was a John. is there anyway the initial impression was correct? could she have been an effeminate or transgender male?

that would certainly explain the rage/overkill and the severe destruction to her face. Roth has hinted more recently about "a hidden motive" beyond SJD merely refusing his sexual advances. He says its because she threatened her two boyfriends would beat him up. Something about this doesn't ring true, when you consider she was hitchhiking and willing took the detour with him. Its that detour that has never, ever made sense to me...especially with the rash of missing and murdered women occuring across the country (and in the press) during this era.

and the details from Roth's recent interviews also make me scratch my head. She was wearing her watch on her left hand but smoked with her right. She spoke in a monotone. No bra, mens style clothing. No color treatment, no purse or other items.

I read somewhere she was wearing pink underpants, but that isn't in any of the other reports.

i would love a fresh set of eyes to mull this over with.....

I've been re-acquainting myself with the facts and research of this case the last few days. As of now, and all the time that has passed, it just seems that a missing person report was never reported. Her features and height just standout amongst the rest of the all the cases that are out there and known in NamUs, CP, and TDN.

But, after all the time spent so far in this case, and how SJD has not been recognized by anyone, makes me wonder if in fact, that this Jane could have really been a John? I, too, don't believe DR and his statements about her and the events of her death. I agree with the others... something really fueled him to the tipping point of his tinderbox and he exploded with rage. He strangles her and then shoots her. I also don't see this as fear. Maybe to make sure she is dead so she won't survive to tell the tale of what happened, but rage was the major, intentional factor.

There is something more that DR is covering here... there was some kind sexual altercation that did not go in his favor. After reading the LE interview about the gender confusion, maybe LE and everyone has been mistakenly looking at this victim from the opposite side of the gender spectrum (perhaps intentionally from DR to cover embarrassment). In all seriousness, SJD could have been a Hermaphrodite. Perhaps she could have lived her early years a male and in her beginning teen years, felt more connected and comfortable with the female side, mentally and physically. Perhaps SJD did this after leaving her real home, where ever that was and quite possibly why no one recognizes her... because all her family and friends knew her as a male long before her death. If that might be the case, there are plenty of missing males in NamUs that have long hair, are 5'10", and in the weight range of 155 lbs.

But that main question still remains... does LE know for sure that this victim was a female?

 

[CarlK90245]

The DNA testing would prove whether this was a male or female. A person's DNA remains male or female even if they undergo gender reassignment.

Edit to add: NamUs UP file indicates a partial (8/14) STR profile on the victim's nuclear DNA (nucDNA), and a complete mitochondrial (mtDNA) profile. The Mitochondrial mtDNA would not distinguish gender. The gender is ascertained from the nucDNA profile. Since this a partial STR (i.e., nucDNA) profile, I am unsure of whether gender could have been ascertained. I believe they still can, but I am not positive.

Nevertheless, I think the idea that she is actually a he is pretty remote IMO.

 

[Kodiak]

The DNA testing would prove whether this was a male or female. A person's DNA remains male or female even if they undergo gender reassignment.

Edit to add: NamUs UP file indicates a partial (8/14) STR profile on the victim's nuclear DNA (nucDNA), and a complete mitochondrial (mtDNA) profile. The Mitochondrial mtDNA would not distinguish gender. The gender is ascertained from the nucDNA profile. Since this a partial STR (i.e., nucDNA) profile, I am unsure of whether gender could have been ascertained. I believe they still can, but I am not positive.

Nevertheless, I think the idea that she is actually a he is pretty remote IMO.

Thanks for the clarification about the gender and explanation of the types of DNA, CarlK90245. I appreciate it.

 

[elliha]

DNA only shows your genetic gender. There are XY-females who look female but are sterile and often have testicles in their abdomen. There are XX-females who are exposed to testosterone in utero and then their clitoris might be very large and their genitals might look like something in between male and female.

I don't think this JD is intersexual but it is not as easy as just looking at DNA.

 

[kpdx]

Bumping in honor of upcoming anniversary.

 

[JoyceSparks]

I just joined this web site , My sister listed above Deborah Lee Tomlinson has been missing for 41 years, My step brother found this site and told me about it. My other sister Jean (we are twins) have been trying to find Debbie for many years and we just the last couple years were turned on to National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Debbie was living with an Aunt in Oregon when she "ran away" we don't even think that our aunt cared enough to file a missing persons report as we cannot locate one. It is so heart breaking to wonder and worry every day what happened to her. I wanted you all to know that if this "Jane doe" is her how much I appreciate someone wondering about her as well...we have DNA on the NCMEC site from my twin sister and an aunt and my mothers mother. we have no relation ship with the aunt and grandmother. I heard that the Jane Doe's body had been exhumed for DNA, I really do not know where to go from her.....any ideas? Debbie turned 56 yesterday.

Additional info: Debbie's info as posted NCMEC was given by my sister; I think she may have been a little heavier. She would have grown from the time she disappeared to when this Jane Doe was killed, and she could have grown a few inches in as many years. The age would be correct at her time of death. She was right handed and did smoke. She had very nice teeth. We heard that she ran away from where she was living with two men (AWOL from the military) and another female. We had also been told that all of them returned home. Debbie did not. This is all second and third hand info as I was only 14 when she ran away. Most of the relatives who would know more are now deceased. I saw on the website for the Snohomish Jane Doe that Deborah Tomlinson has been ruled out...but it does not list how. She is not on the excluded list on this forum. Anyone have any info?? Something keeps telling me to figure this one out. If she was ruled out by DNA I would accept that. But based on height, location, etc...a lot can happen and change in 3-4 years.

 

[kpdx]

Hi Joyce-

So glad you found us here! We are always thrilled to have family members who can provide more information.

Let me say, I cannot imagine the frustration, grief, and many other emotions you and your family has experienced over the years missing Debbie. Nonetheless, I wish to extend my deepest sympathies and hope for a resolution. I also encourage you to further explore and engage with our forum at websleuths, not only do we have compassionate, wonderful sleuthers who are results driven...but we also have a lot of family members of the missing who, like you, are looking for answers.

As far as Snohomish "Precious" Jane Doe, Debbie is not on the master list we received from the Detective in Snohomish County on rule outs, however is listed in NAMUS (namus.gov) as ruled out. Likely, this was a system generated possible match that was ruled out using available identifying factors (in this case it would appear to be DNA). Unfortunately, the lists are not always complete and so back track to find supplemental lists, which we list here.

However, I still encourage you to contact Snohomish County Detectives directly to confirm this for yourself. They are wonderful...the best examples of what law enforcement officers should be and have been consistently helpful with this case. You could email or call, from my experience I received follow up with them within the week.

Additionally, if you have information or could provide more details that would be extremely helpful as Debbie's case has always been one that has been listed as having few available details.

Specifically:
1. Where was Debbie originally from and when did she move to stay with her Aunt in Creswell, OR?
2. When the others returned home, did they make any mention of where they went to? Did anyone at the Lane County Sherriff's office speak to the other parties (there might be a chance that if the other female was a juvenile or the men were AWOL, there may have been missing reports on them which could shed more light on Debbie's disappearance).
3. Did Debbie wear any specific jewelry, clothes or have any other identifying marks (like scars or tattoos)?
4. Had Debbie ever seen a dentist? Did she ever have any fillings/orthodontia/etc? Did she ever break any bones?
5. Did Debbie have pierced ears? Ever paint her toes or fingernails?
6. Wear or prefer a specific style of shoe? Have a particular jacket she would've taken with her?
7. Any other pictures of Debbie? We have found that multiple pictures often help with matches, or jogging people's memory because they give you a fuller picture of what someone looked like in life. It also helpful if we can have closeups of any moles or freckles (they don't move as someone ages) and pictures that show earlobes (they are often a very good distinguishing feature).

That's a lot to throw at you, I know, but those are typically the types of things law enforcement are also going to want to help make identifications.

 

[kpdx]

http://www.king5.com/news/investiga...-murder-Everett-Snohomish-Roth-226832291.html

 

[kpdx]

http://catchwmw.com/2013/10/25/jane...ould-help-id-her-is-her-killer/#axzz2rqcpj9zc

Video at link has a pic of SJD's skull and original clay model.

 

[kpdx]

Attached is a screen shot of the original sketch of SJD

Also the newscast said her front teeth were knocked out and replaced. That's a little different than I remember (I had thought the records said chipped front tooth) but as they were interviewing Det. Scharf I would imagine its correct?

 

[carbuff]

List of ruleouts obtained from LE 2009: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - WA WA - Snohomish County - WhtFem 516UFWA, 15-22, Hitchhiker-5'10" Tall, Aug'77

List of ruleouts from Namus:

Maria Anjiras 1961 Connecticut
Judith Brown 1957 New York
Rose Lena Cole 1956 California
Cherry Greenman 1956 Washington
Jamie Grissim 1955 Washington
Corinne Groenenberg 1957 California
Nancy Jason 1958 Maryland
Cindy King 1961 Oregon
Karen Lee 1961 Oregon
Charlotte Loomis 1958 New Jersey
Cheryl Ann Moser-Iacovone 1961 Pennsylvania
Audrey Nerenberg 1977 New York
Laurie Partridge 1957 Washington
Debra Pscholka 1958 California
Peggy Rahn 1960 Florida
Yvonne Reglar 1960 Ohio
Sherry Roach 1959 California
Rebecca Rodriguez 1969 California
Evangeline Silva 1958 California
Wendy Stevenson 1961 Florida
Kimberly Stewart 1956 California
Deborah Tomlinson 1957 Oregon
Christina White 1967 Washington

There two lists have a lot of differences.

 

[kpdx]

https://www.findthemissing.org/cases/5489

If the teeth were false Wilma might be a viable possible. She isn't on the master list, went missing sometime in 1976 and was tallish and thin.

A little older than the est. age range.

 

[kpdx]

List of ruleouts obtained from LE 2009: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - WA WA - Snohomish County - WhtFem 516UFWA, 15-22, Hitchhiker-5'10" Tall, Aug'77

List of ruleouts from Namus:

There two lists have a lot of differences.

I will let CarlK give you an official explanation of that but as far as I know the LE list is the more exhaustive exclusion list given to WSers directly by lead LE.

From MSM interviews with Det. Scharf, LE has been pretty vigilant in following all leads and possible matches in this case.

As far as I understand from this and other cases, the NAMUS lists are not always exhaustive and may be generated automatically from possible match exclusions.

 

[carbuff]

I will let CarlK give you an official explanation of that but as far as I know the LE list is the more exhaustive exclusion list given to WSers directly by lead LE.

From MSM interviews with Det. Scharf, LE has been pretty vigilant in following all leads and possible matches in this case.

As far as I understand from this and other cases, the NAMUS lists are not always exhaustive and may be generated automatically from possible match exclusions.

Yes, I am aware. I just wanted to flag it so people knew they needed to check both lists. The LE one is from 2009 so I'm sure there have been additions.

 

[Roselvr]

Here is her album on Never Forget Me
Snohomish County, Washington-August 14, 1977

 

[CarlK90245]

Attached is a screen shot of the original sketch of SJD

Also the newscast said her front teeth were knocked out and replaced. That's a little different than I remember (I had thought the records said chipped front tooth) but as they were interviewing Det. Scharf I would imagine its correct?

I've been looking at Precious Doe's skull, and have come to the conclusion that of the recons that have been done of Precious Doe, this one (above) is probably the most accurate. If I had to name a celebrity whose face looks most like Precious Doe, I would probably say she looked like a young Jamie Lee Curtis.

I've been trying to do a recon of my own based on the skull, but the angle is making it tough.

Here is the photo of Precious Doe's skull

 

[Murkywaters]

Hmmm, interesting. I always found it odd that they allowed David Roth (her killer) to change precious does appearance, what if David did not want her to be identified?

 

[CarlK90245]

Here's my best estimate of what she might have looked like.

 

[carbuff]

Attached is a screen shot of the original sketch of SJD

Also the newscast said her front teeth were knocked out and replaced. That's a little different than I remember (I had thought the records said chipped front tooth) but as they were interviewing Det. Scharf I would imagine its correct?

Somewhere upthread it's mentioned that when they did the second examination after the exhumation, they found more dental details.