Was BR involved? #2

[Linda7NJ]

Speaking of the size 12s, I was reading that thread as it has recently been bumped. The beginning is a wealth of info, and for me had some interesting info regarding PRs testimony, revealing more lies, which are actually kinda critical considering what PR was trying to get LO to believe.



As for the idea that items left behind point more to an intruder:



ITA with what you are saying with regard to how some items could have easily been taken from the home that morning, and by PRs sister.



But I have a question. Do we know what time the Rs flight was scheduled to leave, and what time they would have needed to leave the house to get there? Obviously with a private plane, one doesn't have to worry about "missing" their flight, but they would most certainly need to contact their pilot by a certain time if running significantly late. Given this, I could see the Rs thinking they needed to make that 911 call by a certain time. If they were planning the call time based on what time it would seem reasonable they got up for the trip, they may have simply run out of time re: staging, and some items were then "overlooked" in the process.



Not sure if that makes sense? :blushing:

So much that ^^^^

Running out of time


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[bettybaby00]

Thomas wrote that PR woke around 5:30AM that morning, which seemed late for a 6:30AM flight

in PMPT Schiller wrote that pilot MA told BPD that the flight was scheduled for 7AM and Kolar quotes JR as reporting the same planned departure time

the co-pilot was at the airport/was told about the kidnapping by 6:05AM; the pilot was en route (his wife was told when she answered the home phone after he left)

IIRC it was about a 15/20 minute drive to the airport (?)

Well 5:30 for a 7:00 flight aboard a private plane, with the airfield that close to the house would have made it a "roll outta bed & go" kinda morning. One I could appreciate!

But that's what I mean about running out of time. We don't have a very specific TOD, and obviously there was a lot to do, especially if phone calls stated being made. I could see them plotting, "we have to make the 911 call no later than 5:45, or we'll have to start telling even more lies."

 

[gramcracker]

I always wonder how it would have unfolded without that early morning flight followed by the cruise. that's why I have trouble with premeditated (long term vs spontaneous premed, that is)

 

[bettybaby00]

I always wonder how it would have unfolded without that early morning flight followed by the cruise. that's why I have trouble with premeditated (long term vs spontaneous premed, that is)

I'm sure it would have played out very differently. They would have had all the time they needed to get everything done, including getting JRB out of the house if that was what they wanted.

And I'm with you, IMO in no way was this premeditated.

 

[gramcracker]

Thank you, Tawny. From the article linked above:

"A broadcast report Friday raised the possibility that the batteries were free of fingerprints or residue because they were wiped clean. But law enforcement sources did not confirm such a conclusion."
...

"Former FBI profiler Gregg McCrary, who has followed the case closely, was not surprised that fingerprints were not found on the flashlight. Rough or textured surfaces don't easily retain fingerprints.

The batteries are another story.

'That's a little more suspicious,' McCrary said. 'By their nature, batteries would be a better surface on which to leave fingerprints because they're typically shiny and smooth.'

If the flashlight was used to strike a blow to JonBenet's head, and if the killer had taken the time to wipe down the batteries, McCrary thinks that would support his suspicion that the crime was committed by someone close to the family."​

Were the batteries 'factory-installed'?

it's already been confirmed that the batteries weren't factory-installed. the RMN article is from November '98. that LE did not confirm the the lack of fingerprints during an ongoing investigation and while the GJ was in session is to be expected

the Schiller and Thomas books mention that the flashlight and the batteries "held no fingerprints." PMPT/February 1999 and IRMI/April 2011

Speaking of the size 12s, I was reading that thread as it has recently been bumped. The beginning is a wealth of info, and for me had some interesting info regarding PRs testimony, revealing more lies, which are actually kinda critical considering what PR was trying to get LO to believe.

ITA. I didn't know that Bloomies are packaged with a zipper. a plastic tag threaded through the zipper tab needs to be cut with a knife or scissors to open the packaging

I read threads here for years before I posted and I'm still finding "new" info all the time

 

[otg]

(rsbm)

I didn't know that Bloomies are packaged with a zipper. a plastic tag threaded through the zipper tab needs to be cut with a knife or scissors to open the packaging

I read threads here for years before I posted and I'm still finding "new" info all the time

A good place to read for information on the Bloomies is [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7107"]here on FFJ[/ame] (credit to Jayelles). Here are two of the photos relevant to the zipper from there:

 

[bettybaby00]

it's already been confirmed that the batteries weren't factory-installed. the RMN article is from November '98. that LE did not confirm the the lack of fingerprints during an ongoing investigation and while the GJ was in session is to be expected

the Schiller and Thomas books mention that the flashlight and the batteries "held no fingerprints." PMPT/February 1999 and IRMI/April 2011



ITA. I didn't know that Bloomies are packaged with a zipper. a plastic tag threaded through the zipper tab needs to be cut with a knife or scissors to open the packaging

I read threads here for years before I posted and I'm still finding "new" info all the time

Oh I didn't even think about the whole zippered & fastened closed aspect of the packaging on the panties.

I read so many threads too before I started posting. It took me so long to figure out what IDI, RDI, or BDI meant :lol:

 

[bettybaby00]

(rsbm)A good place to read for information on the Bloomies is here on FFJ (credit to Jayelles). Here are two of the photos relevant to the zipper from there:

Thanks for the link. I go over there a lot to read up on things as well. Sometimes it's easier/quicker to find specific info

 

[questfortrue]

Thanks for the link. I go over there a lot to read up on things as well. Sometimes it's easier/quicker to find specific info

Someone put those size 12-14 Bloomies on JB. For those considering RDI:
That person opened the package, most likely with a knife. So for me the puzzle resides in choosing the stager of the big Bloomies, and, it seems to follow, who was involved in the cover-up.

1) PR could always have put on other better-fitting panties (although apparently and according to victim analyst HS all of JB’s panties in her drawer were stained) and not worry about the Wednesday label, since JB was known to have toileting issues and it would be somewhat explainable why she had on other panties, even if someone saw the Wednesday Bloomies at the FW party. EXCEPT that they had a story of JB coming home zonked and being put to bed with her same party shirt and long-johns placed on her. A change of panties would not have fit their story. So selecting other oversized Wednesday Bloomies (if afraid someone had seen the Wednesday label at the FW’s) PR might have believed would provide reasonable cover.

2) Would BR choose that particular day of the week as a replacement for the Wednesday size 4-6 she likely had on? He could read. This could occur in the basement, if his folks weren’t around and disguise an assault? My problem with this is that someone also cleaned her up and a 9 year old doesn’t seem as much a candidate for this aspect of the cover-up. Could be, but not my first choice.

3) Would JR (whose shirt fibers were found in the panties, and I know for some this was an “invention” on the part of the attorneys, but I’ve believed it likely true, moo) have done the exchange of one Wednesday panty for another Wednesday panty thinking it important to keep the days of the week similar? Might this be something a detail oriented male would think was important, but missing what flags would be raised at autopsy?

Another situation of choose your panty stager according to your theory?
MHO.

 

[Meara]

Thomas wrote that PR woke around 5:30AM that morning, which seemed late for a 6:30AM flight

in PMPT Schiller wrote that pilot MA told BPD that the flight was scheduled for 7AM and Kolar quotes JR as reporting the same planned departure time

the co-pilot was at the airport/was told about the kidnapping by 6:05AM; the pilot was en route (his wife was told when she answered the home phone after he left)

IIRC it was about a 15/20 minute drive to the airport (?)

Hi gramcracker. It was a 25 - 30 min. drive to the airport - so I've read; I'll look for a source for you - so perhaps the 6:30 departure refers to leaving the house (in time for a 7 AM departure from the airport)?

 

[MyBelle]

(rsbm)A good place to read for information on the Bloomies is here on FFJ (credit to Jayelles). Here are two of the photos relevant to the zipper from there:

Wasn't the correct day of the week panties placed on the child? Am I the only one who finds the methodical, meticulous attention to detail a sign of a very sick mind?

 

[bettybaby00]

Someone put those size 12-14 Bloomies on JB. For those considering RDI:
That person opened the package, most likely with a knife. So for me the puzzle resides in choosing the stager of the big Bloomies, and, it seems to follow, who was involved in the cover-up.

1) PR could always have put on other better-fitting panties (although apparently and according to victim analyst HS all of JB’s panties in her drawer were stained) and not worry about the Wednesday label, since JB was known to have toileting issues and it would be somewhat explainable why she had on other panties, even if someone saw the Wednesday Bloomies at the FW party. EXCEPT that they had a story of JB coming home zonked and being put to bed with her same party shirt and long-johns placed on her. A change of panties would not have fit their story. So selecting other oversized Wednesday Bloomies (if afraid someone had seen the Wednesday label at the FW’s) PR might have believed would provide reasonable cover.

2) Would BR choose that particular day of the week as a replacement for the Wednesday size 4-6 she likely had on? He could read. This could occur in the basement, if his folks weren’t around and disguise an assault? My problem with this is that someone also cleaned her up and a 9 year old doesn’t seem as much a candidate for this aspect of the cover-up. Could be, but not my first choice.

3) Would JR (whose shirt fibers were found in the panties, and I know for some this was an “invention” on the part of the attorneys, but I’ve believed it likely true, moo) have done the exchange of one Wednesday panty for another Wednesday panty thinking it important to keep the days of the week similar? Might this be something a detail oriented male would think was important, but missing what flags would be raised at autopsy?

Another situation of choose your panty stager according to your theory?
MHO.

BBM

actually not for me...cause IDI doesn't fit with redressing at all.

Reading PRs testimony regarding the panties makes no sense to me. She's clearly lying IMO, and clearly she wouldn't have "let JRB wear them," as she tried to say in her testimony. If she had, then the "I don't remember if she was wearing them that night" doesn't make sense either. She would have noticed, and remembered that she had on underwear that were 4 sizes too big. And under leggings, they would have been noticeable. She would have looked as if she had something stuffed down her pants!

 

[Meara]

Okay, here's what the Rams said in their "interviews" : p

Here's JR in 1997:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

TT: And you guys were heading out pretty early the next morning?
JR: Uh huh.
TT: About what time did you guys plan on leaving the house?
JR: We needed to leave by 6:30 a.m., because we were going to take off about 7:00 a.m., because we were meeting John and Melinda in Minneapolis.
TT: You guys were going to taxi to fly out by 7:00 a.m.
JR: Uh-huh.
TT: What time were you planning on getting up; what time did guys get up?
JR: Well the alarm was set for 5:30 a.m., I woke up a little before that, before the alarm went off.
TT: Do you have an alarm? Does Patsy have an alarm? Do you guys both have alarms?
JR: The alarm is a clock radio which is on my side of the bed, which is the north side, left as you face the bed.
TT: Does Patsy use an alarm clock to wake-up at all?
JR: Well, she’ll use that one if I wasn’t there.
TT: Okay.
JR: That’s the only one we’ve got I think.
TT: So you woke up a little bit before 5:30 a.m. in the morning?
JR: Uh huh.


Now PR in 1997:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

PR: Okay. Um, we got up at about 5:30, I think. I think John got up first and I got up just right behind him and he went to his bathroom and shower. I went to my bathroom. I did not shower that morning and I just put my clothes on and uh, did my hair and makeup and uh and then I started down the stairs.....


Here's JR in his 1998 statement:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

23 LOU SMIT: You remember setting the alarm on
24 Christmas night?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically
0126
1 doing it. But I know I did because we had to -- we
2 had wanted, because as I recall we wanted to take
3 off at 7:00. It was a three-hour flight to
4 Minneapolis. That would have gotten us there at
5 11. The kids' flight got in at elevenish. I
6 remember I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be
7 late for the kids' plane.
8 Typically with trips like that we're always
9 late. We would need to be there at 7:00 and we'd
10 get there at 7:30. I wanted to be sure that we
11 were up at this time.


Now here's PR in 1998:
http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. I awakened
19 that morning, probably somewhere between 5:30
20 and 6. We are going to take off for the airport
21 just at 7, we were going to the lake house. I
22 got up and walked over here to my bathroom right
23 in here.
24 TRIP DeMUTH: I am sorry, I missed
25 what you said, what time you said.
0009
1 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometime
2 between 5:30 and 6 a.m. And walked around
3 here to the bathroom and I did not take a shower
4 that morning, so I don't know, you know, what
5 exactly I did here. I mean other than just get
6 dressed, brush my teeth, put on my make up. And
7 get ready to go.

And a little later in the same statement:

15 PATSY RAMSEY: I didn't set the
16 alarm. John, it's on his side of the bed and he
17 always sets that. I was just thinking he wanted
18 to take off at 7, so it means we had to leave
19 the house about 6:30, and I usually get up about
20 45 minutes, half an hour, 45 minutes to an hour
21 earlier to kind of pull things together. And we
22 just throw our clothes on and go when it's that
23 early.
24 We had to leave at 7 because we had
25 to meet Melinda and John Andrew. Normally it
0013
1 doesn't matter whether you're five or ten
2 minutes late, you're not meeting anything, you
3 are not on a schedule, but we were rendezvousing
4 with them, they were flying commercially from
5 Atlanta to Minneapolis, so we had to take off at
6 7 to meet their flight in Minneapolis.


Google says it takes about 17 to 30 minutes (highway vs. Baseline Road) to get from 15th Street to Jeffco Airport.

HTH...

 

[bettybaby00]

I was reading through the members theory thread, and was surprised to see how many people felt BDI a long time ago.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I was reading through the members theory thread, and was surprised to see how many people felt BDI a long time ago.

Wow...here's mine from 2005!

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=734902"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Members' Theories[/ame]


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[bettybaby00]

Wow...here's mine from 2005!

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Members' Theories


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:lol: read it!

Whenever I look at old threads, I always start at the beginning. Yours was on the first few pages (according to my settings )

Eta: I'm not :lol: @ your theory just at the fact you posted the link, and I knew I had already
read it

 

[MyBelle]

BBM

actually not for me...cause IDI doesn't fit with redressing at all.

Reading PRs testimony regarding the panties makes no sense to me. She's clearly lying IMO, and clearly she wouldn't have "let JRB wear them," as she tried to say in her testimony. If she had, then the "I don't remember if she was wearing them that night" doesn't make sense either. She would have noticed, and remembered that she had on underwear that were 4 sizes too big. And under leggings, they would have been noticeable. She would have looked as if she had something stuffed down her pants!

Patsy and the truth were complete strangers. I personally believe the panties were purchased for JonBenet to wear over the pull-ups.

If Patsy said they were for her niece did anyone find a niece who wore size 12 panties? Who buys their niece or nephew underwear as a Christmas gift?

JMO

 

[bettybaby00]

Patsy and the truth were complete strangers. I personally believe the panties were purchased for JonBenet to wear over the pull-ups.

If Patsy said they were for her niece did anyone find a niece who wore size 12 panties? Who buys their niece or nephew underwear as a Christmas gift?

JMO

I certainly agree with the first part of your reply. I don't think they were purchased to wear over the pull-ups for several reasons:

*according to the housekeeper, JRB hadn't been wearing them regularly b/c PR was hoping NOT using them would be more be beneficial
*if pull-ups are used for sleeping there is no reason what so ever to put panties over them
*why then didn't she say they that's why she bought them?
*im pretty sure the niece exists as her name is given during testimony
*IDK, I can see how that type of gift would be considered "cute" for a young girl, from an aunt who visits a "famous" dept store.

When I recently went to London, and visited Harrods, that's where I bought the majority of my gifts, b/c many friends and family will never get to visit that famous store, and things with "Harrods" on it seemed a great idea. Trust me, they had an entire floor dedicated to Harrods gift items.

Bloomingdales in NYC would have a similar appeal to a young girl who might never visit NYC herself.

 

[MyBelle]

I certainly agree with the first part of your reply. I don't think they were purchased to wear over the pull-ups for several reasons:

*according to the housekeeper, JRB hadn't been wearing them regularly b/c PR was hoping NOT using them would be more be beneficial
*if pull-ups are used for sleeping there is no reason what so ever to put panties over them
*why then didn't she say they that's why she bought them?
*im pretty sure the niece exists as her name is given during testimony
*IDK, I can see how that type of gift would be considered "cute" for a young girl, from an aunt who visits a "famous" dept store.

When I recently went to London, and visited Harrods, that's where I bought the majority of my gifts, b/c many friends and family will never get to visit that famous store, and things with "Harrods" on it seemed a great idea. Trust me, they had an entire floor dedicated to Harrods gift items.

Bloomingdales in NYC would have a similar appeal to a young girl who might never visit NYC herself.

BBM. Because I think JonBenet was wearing the pull ups and the panties when she was killed. She was cleaned up and the panties placed back on her, pull up was disposed of.

The housekeeper had no way of knowing for sure what the little girl was put to bed in.

Putting big girl panties over the pull-up would for JonBenet's self-esteem...and Patsy's. Going to the trouble of buying a gift, having it gift wrapped, carrying it back to Colorado and then tossing it in the basement makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[otg]

(sbm)

If Patsy said they were for her niece did anyone find a niece who wore size 12 panties?

(sbm)

*im pretty sure the niece exists as her name is given during testimony

Patsy claimed to have purchased the size-12's for her niece. I won't post her name here, but it is in one of the documented interviews, along with the claim. The neice was (IIRC) about 11/12 years old. She was said to be large for her age. Patsy said (again, IIRC) that she couldn't remember if she also bought a set for JonBenet at the same time.