Was Burke Involved ? # 3

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PositiveLight

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If Burke really went downstairs that would be extraordinary. How was DP's followup questions? That really tightens up the timeline if the crime is committed after Burke returns to bed.

This got me thinking that he has never said anything like that before. I wonder if he is just trying to help old dad with the flashlight issue.

I went back to John Douglas's book "The Cases that Haunt Us" and found this on page 377.

"Both parents remembered leaving the Whites' house about 8:30 in the evening...and returning home shortly after 9:00. JonBenet fell asleep in the car, and John carried her into the house and upstairs to her room, where Patsy got her ready for bed. They said she did not wake up during any of this. John then went to attend to Burke, but the boy insisted on completing assembly of a Christmas toy. By the time John put him to bed and came up to his own bedroom....Patsy was already in bed."

So does Burke just not remember Dad was up with him?

DP didn't seem to go into detail with the revelation honestly. He asked him I believe if he took the flashlight or was the lights on downstairs. BR said he didn't remember (surprise surprise) just remembered there was a toy he wanted to play with. IMHO DP failed miserably on this line of questioning.

Quick question.... since BR finally did an interview, can police now question him officially in regards to the new insights? I know he can't be charged, but at least it could finally allow JBR to rest in peace.
I also question another possible charge. IF and I emphasize IF, it is proven than JR and BR are covering up new evidence, will that in turn possibly lead them to a potential arrest scenario? I know they can't be charged in the initial crime. BUT is there a loop hole that could open them up to potential prosecution? Any lawyers know if this in fact exists?
(If not then maybe this is something that can be worked towards in the future to help solve cases like this. Just an idea though. Not sure how feasible it actually is.)
 

PositiveLight

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I think that the family still tried to keep up appearances. Stuff those skeletons into the closet and triple lock the door. I would think that in the case of JB, 'sexually assaulted' would be a better term than 'molested to some extent'. What happened to JB that night certainly wasn't something that should be minimized. The sexual assault alone was horrific. I just don't understand this family. If this had happened to my child I would do everything within my power to find who did it and make them pay to the fullest extent of the law. I would leave no stone unturned. I would hound the police. I would do 100+ interviews with the police if need be. I would never give up, and I certainly wouldn't casually say (as JR did on DP) 'this will be my last interview'. Nedra always struck me as a little odd too.
Amen amen amen!!!
Seriously though I am from the deep South and many families that I know, including my own, have extremely dark skeletons and those doors are definitely triple locked. It's sad honestly. I know my grandmother told me stories of far off cousins of hers that were all sexually molested by their father and even had kids by him. His wife was very aware of it and in fact was overheard saying she didn't care and even victim blamed the kids. There were even shootings over it. Many other family members (males) tried to take him to the woodshed several times but it never stopped him. It's disgusting honestly but I know of this happening in my own far off extended family so I'm sure we aren't the only ones. My grandmother always said she thinks that the mother was encouraging it so she didn't have to tend to her husbands needs. So sad.
 

Boodles

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I know that bolded line has been repeated so many times that most people just accept it as fact. Actually though, it comes from what someone remembers hearing on Geraldo that was misquoted and repeated over and over again. Here's what Nedra actually said in its entirety as written in PMPT:

On September 25, Geraldo Rivera, who had been pursuing the thesis that JonBenét’s killer must be a member of the Ramsey family, hosted “The Ramseys Fight Back” on his daytime TV show. Jennifer Kay, a producer for Rivera’s show, had persuaded Nedra Paugh, Patsy’s mother, to give an impromptu interview from her home in Roswell, Georgia.

“Well, every day was Christmas to JonBenét,” Nedra said. She sat slumped in a chair, a defeated woman, her heartbreak palpable. “She [JonBenét] had a wonderful life. I often looked at her and Burke as well and thought how wonderful life had been to them. She was beautiful. She was gracious, intelligent, loved life, loved her friends, loved animals. She loved everything. And that was taken away by a thief in the night as she slept. Now she is in heaven, and I’m sure she’s a very good angel.”

When Nedra mentioned the crime, it was in a string of half-completed thoughts and seeming nonsequiturs: “I didn’t know that she had been mole…molested to some extent and hit on the head. I didn’t know that. And somehow I hoped that she had died very quickly, and I think that she did. I…I really do believe that whoever has done this strangled her, because I’m sure that she put up a tremendous fight. Although she had tape on her mouth, she couldn’t scream. But I knew she had fought.

“To think that a perfectly healthy, happy child, sleeping in her bed on Christmas Day, dreaming, as the story says, of sugar plum buds—and for someone to kill and murder, molest, and then, if that isn’t enough, strike her on the head, is something—it’s just more, because if that hadn’t happened, she would be well and alive, making a contribution to the world.”


Thank you otg, this is helpful. She's not saying "a little bit molested", she's saying she didn't know that she had been molested to some extent. "To some extent" meaning, not raped, but subjected to some sort of sexual molestation, about which Nedra had been unaware.

I don't find anything offensive about Nedra's comment. It would seem she has been misquoted and misinterpreted.

Thanks for sharing this. It's sad. :(
 

HarmonyE.

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Quick question.... since BR finally did an interview, can police now question him officially in regards to the new insights? I know he can't be charged, but at least it could finally allow JBR to rest in peace.

The police tried to question a few years back but he refused. The fact that he did an interview will not change his right to refuse to talk with them.

The interview does change his status relative to any civil suit should he decide to sue an individual or a news outlet for speculating about his role in the murder. He's now a clear public figure (he probably was one to an extent before, but now he's clearly put himself in the limelight) and it would be hard for him to prevail in a suit because of this. If he does sue, he'll be deposed, so he - and Dad - have a lot to think about before they do such a thing.

Maybe James Kolar can update his book now with his complete theory.
 

mrseeker

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I think BR and JR could both be compelled to appear before a grand jury. If you are given immunity you cannot refuse to testify. BR has no criminal exposure anyway. So give BR immunity and using his interview grill him about what he was told over the years by his mother and father and get this timeline down. He could only be prosecuted if he is caught lying. JR needs to give up the scam. He knows what happened and he should tell the police so they can close the book. Someone might get railroaded and be convicted unjustly. Will JR sit there with his smirk and allow that to happen?
 

Ray_of_hope

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The re-enactments and the analysis were all fabulous. I am now in the BDI camp. Can't wait for tomorrow's show.
 

Nick No Nora

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Can you imagine what would have happened at the time in the media if Burke had been arrested?
 

just the facts pls

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Can you imagine what would have happened at the time in the media if Burke had been arrested?

BR was one month shy of ten years old, so he wouldn't have been arrested if they had come forward. IMO the tragedy of this case is that it looks like we have two parents who were desperate to do anything to protect their remaining child (or protect their own reputations, or both) and the media wouldn't have much to report if they had told the truth in the first place. What fuels media coverage is the not knowing, the questioning, the promises of answers after years and years. I can't imagine how many people lost sleep over this case when it didn't have to be this way.
 

HarmonyE.

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If, as I believe, Burke did it, there will be no grand jury and no conviction.

The original grand jury recommended the parents be indicted for child endangerment and accessories to (obviously Burke's) murder. The statute of limitations is up for John Ramsey to be charged with child endangerment and being an accessory. So unless it can be proved that John Ramsey strangled his daughter, there will never be any convictions as Burke as a few weeks too young to be held criminally responsible for any part of this.
 

aa9511

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Amen amen amen!!!
Seriously though I am from the deep South and many families that I know, including my own, have extremely dark skeletons and those doors are definitely triple locked. It's sad honestly. I know my grandmother told me stories of far off cousins of hers that were all sexually molested by their father and even had kids by him. His wife was very aware of it and in fact was overheard saying she didn't care and even victim blamed the kids. There were even shootings over it. Many other family members (males) tried to take him to the woodshed several times but it never stopped him. It's disgusting honestly but I know of this happening in my own far off extended family so I'm sure we aren't the only ones. My grandmother always said she thinks that the mother was encouraging it so she didn't have to tend to her husbands needs. So sad.

I don't think it was the father, I think it was the son because as everyone can see, he is a little off.
 

aa9511

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I think maybe that was DP's initial idea until he watched the unseen videos and knew what he was seeing. After meeting BR in person it probably made it even more apparent that JBR story needed to be told even if it had to be done by "reading between the lines."
I think DP knew exactly what he was dealing with and wanted it out there. You can tell that DP is almost in shock as BR sits there with that creepy smile and answers questions about his murdered sister like he could care less.
Both of those kids were wetting the bed. Someone was abusing them imho. Classic red flag.
He was cold, detached and uncaring. He didn't even seem to care that it's coming across that way. He had to know.
I wish DP would tell him to wipe that smile off his face and question him hard about what really happened.
I think he would break easily and spill the beans.
Here's the chance to get to the truth. Go for it!

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If he's mentally ill, would he be aware of how he is coming across to others? I think maybe it's a thing of, he doesn't even realize it. He seems mentally ill to me.
 

eileenhawkeye

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I have a feeling Burke is incredibly embarassed over his Dr. Phil interview. I think it's likely he suffers from social anxiety, and even though it may look like he lacked self-awareness at the time, I bet he is really kicking himself now.
 

aa9511

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I was always RDI strictly because of dolls the Ramseys removed from the crime scene. I had a Patsy leaning, it seemed blatantly abusive to bleach the hair of a child so young. As the years progressed the dolls were not investigated and no charges were filed so it seemed Burke was involved and his age prevented prosecution. Knowing doll fibers linked the parents to a cover-up fostered this theory. That is where I've been for years now, BDI. Burke struck her and the parents staged the rest. Kolar's revelation about Burke's encopresis cemented my theory. Now that I've seen 2 Dr Phil tapes I'm more convinced. Burke is as creepy as Charles Manson. Burke is off the charts emotionally. Dr Phil glosses over this and says he's "socially awkward" because of Jonbenet's death. It's more likely Jonbenet is dead because he was socially awkward. Both kids exhibited symptoms and behaviors associated with being the victim of sexual abuse, most likely by the half brother. A teenager from a broken home with a bedroom down the hall.

John can't face the truth, it's too dark. JAR and Pam Paugh hold answers to solving the mystery but in the end Burke can never be charged, that will never change, he was too young.

From what I saw, Burke seems mentally ill/sociopathic, etc..
 

bluesneakers

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I don't think it was the father, I think it was the son because as everyone can see, he is a little off.

After the childhood he had with the parents he had... it's no surprise he's a little off.
 

aa9511

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According to Team Ramsey now, the unknown "touch DNA" belongs to a Hispanic male.

So that narrows it.

A Hispanic male who was extremely close to the family, so close in fact that he knew the exact amount of John's bonus, who knew Patsy'a morning routine, and who Jonbenet felt comfortable enough sharing a late night pineapple snack with.

A Hispanic male who also doesn't have an alibi for Christmas.

A Hispanic male who is also a ninja, since he has the remarkable ability to break into homes without disturbing spiderwebs or vegetation outside windows.

A Hispanic male who is educated enough he knows how to spell "attaché ". ...complete with the accent! (So it would rule out migrant workers)

Should be an extremly easy case to solve. Why hasn't there been an arrest yet?

Answer: because the touch DNA is irrelevent and there was no intruder, that's why.

The scary part is that if the DNA actually matched to someone, that person would have been charged and given the death penalty long ago. Maybe even executed by now. When it was probably just the underwear factory worker. The jury would have said, DNA is proof.
 

dahlia213

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I don't think Burke was involved. I used to be a little flip-floppy on it in the past year or so, but after seeing his Dr. Phil interviews (so far) I'm even less convinced he was involved. The revelations that a) John used the flashlight that night to put Burke to bed and b) Burke admits to going downstairs to play with a new toy are huge to me. Burke only says that he went down to play with his new toy, not that he actually ended up playing. Also, it's super weird to me that John would put his kid to bed using a flashlight rather than turning a light on. I think Burke was telling the truth about going back downstairs to play, but he omitted the truthful timeline of events. I think he went downstairs hoping to sneak in some playtime but came upon his parents instead. John had the flashlight in his hand (either because he'd recently just used it to hit Jonbenet or because he took it from Patsy after she'd used it on Jonbenet) and took Burke back up to bed with it, not turning on any lights on the way in hopes of keeping Burke from seeing any more of a scene he shouldn't be seeing or possibly blood on John's hands/clothes.

Burke, in my opinion, is innocent of Jonbenet's death, but he sure as hell knows his parents are responsible for it and he's had to live with that secret for decades now.

Also, in regards to possibly hearing Burke on the end of the 911 call - it's hard to tell what, if anything, is being said there when we've been fed what to listen out for on the recording in advance. But it DOES sound like Burke saying "what did you find?" If that's the case, to me, it helps prove he wasn't involved in what happened to Jonbenet. If he'd been the culprit and talking about the ransom note, he probably would've said something along the lines of, "what is that?" because he would already know what happened to his sister and wouldn't be expecting there to be a note "left". But the fact that he may be saying, "what did you find?" seems to me like he's asking a general question, like, 'what's going on'/'what happened'/'what did you find that's causing you to act like this'.
 

txsvicki

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Haven't posted here in awhile, but even with all this, still can't get past Patsy. It's very possible that Burke did something, but I keep remembering the original detectives believing that JonBenet's vaginal injury was the result of punishment, the housekeeper saying that Patsy had been having some severe mood swings, and only Patsy would have known just how severe the head injury was. I still believe that note was written by someone drinking a little or on tranquilizers and it's purpose was to get John out of the home and them on a jet out of Colorado. If she was heard saying "we called police, now what?", to me, that sounds like John made her call. Burke appearing to have some special needs could also set him up for her to place suspicion on with John. If John thought it possible that Burke did it, then he'd protect and possibly protect his billion dollar business most of all.
 

mrseeker

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Can you imagine what would have happened at the time in the media if Burke had been arrested?
We probably wouldn't know about it, if it was immediately after the crime. He was a child and he couldn't be charged in Colorado. I assume some family court would have handled it. Names probably withheld. It certainly would be forgotten by now.
 

bxbbysoxer

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A little OT for this thread, but I'm trying to piece together some things and can't find the info on it - does anyone remember about the chair that was supposedly behind a door? Was that in the train room or the wine cellar? I don't remember hearing this mentioned in a while but I thought of it while watching the CBS documentary.
 
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