Was Burke Involved? # 4

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Tricia, Sep 14, 2016.

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  1. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    Who said anything about Burke plotting the whole thing to cover his own abuse? I've never seen anyone even suggest that.

    He could have plotted the whole thing for other reasons, but I seriously doubt Burke was thinking about covering for abuse.
     


  2. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    I have seen all the pictures. And it seems very clear to me that the knot was tied before. So clear to me in fact, it almost seems strange that it's even a discussion.

    I don't mean that as argumentative or anything, I just think it's interesting how people can look at the same info and see completely different information in it.

    I guess the only way to know for sure with the knot is to see it in person, which is not possible, or to have LE finally unwrap it, which is also not possible for us.

    So if some see those pictures and believe it shows the knot was tied after, that's fine. It is just not what I see when I look at those photos, to me the opposite seems very obvious. That doesn't mean I am right, but it also doesn't mean I am wrong.

    We will just have to agree to disagree.
     
  3. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    Relax. Everyone knows it's not a real garrote, I am only referring to it as such because that is what it has been called during this entire investigation. I don't think you need to be so nit picky over what we call it.

    Also she technically had microscopic cellulose inside her, which could also be from toilet paper and not neccasarily the paint brush.
     
  4. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    Yes I have read it many time Otg, I just don't happen to agree with you on this one.

    I think the stick was in place when the strangulation happened and I think it was twisted and I think that's how the hair got in it.

    It seems like a far stranger thing to me that someone would feel the need to attach the paintbrush to the string after death. I mean who would think, let's step up how this looks by adding a wooden stick to the end? A garrote a tourniquet whatever you want to call it, is a rather random tool, and I just can't see something thinking of creating that as part of staging post strangulation. I just don't see it. I think it was already there.
     
  5. johnjay

    johnjay New Member

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    Thanks, that's pretty close to the dimensions that I used but I didn't have nylon cord.

    Since you think this was staging, how about a link to a post where you describe how you think she was actually strangled.
     
  6. johnjay

    johnjay New Member

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    I gather from my google searches that garrotes can take on various forms. e.g.

    http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/garrote
    And from Steve Thomas's book:

     
  7. ukrberserker23

    ukrberserker23 Member

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    I have a thought on this rope used as a garotte. My father rigged up something almost identical to wrap around his fold up Christmas tree. I think he used a clove hitch on the handle. He put a fixed loop at the other end. Then he makes a lariat out of it. Loop around the tree branches to cinch them down. Only way it will fit back in the box. This is why I asked the other day if anyone knew if Ramsey's used artificial tree that year.
     
  8. johnjay

    johnjay New Member

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    The problem I have with using the strangulation device by grabbing the handle and pushing on her back is that when used that way the tension in he cord is not only compressing the neck put all that tension is also pulling the neck back. That's seems like a lot of force on a young child's neck. Wouldn't that do other damage too- maybe break her neck?

    But when just pulled by both ends of the rope - standard movie garroting, the pull tensions balance each other and there is just the compression of the neck. Same thing with the twisting type of device. Of course, if this was just staging and the strangulation happened some other way, then ...
     
  9. johnjay

    johnjay New Member

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    Google "garrote", lots of references give it a more general definition of a strangulation device.
     
  10. johnjay

    johnjay New Member

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    I had no trouble getting the twisting action to work on my mock up of this device. Twist the extra chord around the neck over the first chord, wrap around the handle and twist. Incredible compression force with very little torque on the handle. I'm not saying this is what was done - just that it could be made to work this way- although you might get two cord marks, at least in some places.

    The problem I have with the handle just being pulled is that method creates a lot of pulling force on the neck besides the compression force. And it feels like the most violent of the three very violent techniques. Maybe with a quick yank- like pulling a lawn mower ... I wish CBS would have covered this but it would have been gruesome TV.

    The cord looks like it's pulled very tight. The standard movie garroting technique would work pretty well, I imagine. but if you did it with bare rope on bare hands I think you would bruise your hands. I guess you could slip the noose part over something to hold it in place and just pull on the handle - a one sided movie like garrote - then stage - but I don't think that was done.

    Could normal parents like John and Patsy do that kind of staging? That's a frightening thought. After playing with a mock-up of the device I can see why the intruder theory is popular. Just holding the mock up was very unsettling.
     
  11. mrseeker

    mrseeker Former Member

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    Wasn't there an early story that a book found in PR bedroom referenced a crime with a garrote? I want to say it was mindhunters. I read that book years ago but I don't have an independent memory of a garrote. I checked and the book came out in 1995 and I am almost certain I read it before this crime. If anyone has this book do you see a reference anywhere to a garrotte?
     
  12. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

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    any thoughts?

    http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

    Det. Arndt stated to Your Affiant that she was present and observed a visual examination by Dr. Meyer of the shirt worn by the child. She observed and Dr. Meyer preserved dark fibers and dark hair found on the outside of the shirt

    Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.

    Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

    In the presence of Det. Arndt, Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department, used a black florescent light the view the body including the pubic area of the victim in an attempt to observe the possible presence of semen or seminal fluid. (Your Affiant knows from previous experience and training that substances such as semen or seminal fluid, not visible to the unaided eye, may become visible when viewed under a black florescent light). Det. Arndt stated that she observed florescent areas of the upper inner and outer left thigh, as well as the upper and inner right thigh. Det. Arndt stated that her observations of the result of the black florescent light observation is consistent with the presence of semen or seminal fluid.

    Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer swab these florescent areas. Dr. Meyer was also observed by Det. Arndt to obtain vaginal, oral and anal swabs from the child's body. (According to examination conducted at the Colorado Bureau of Investigations, no semen was located on the body, panties, or clothing of JonBenet Ramsey).

    Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.
    ------------------

    we later learned that it wasn/t semen but blood....but it must have been a lot of it since both left and right inner and upper thighs were wiped off
    wth happened there
     
  13. BOESP

    BOESP Well-Known Member

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    "If you read it on the Internet it must be true" is a standard joke used in this day and time to indicate the Internet is not always factual. The autopsy says "ligature."

    We can agree to disagree. :D
     
  14. Heymom

    Heymom New Member

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    Was it Lou Smit that started using that word to describe the ligature? It sure stuck - the media picked it up immediately and spread it relentlessly. It was "proof" that the killer was experienced and savage, nothing that could have been done by a family member, especially not one 9.11 years old.
     
  15. mrseeker

    mrseeker Former Member

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    Googling this, there are references to a local radio personality alleging Douglas's book was found in the house. The posters said it was not true. So i guess I heard it back then and never heard it later was proven false.
     
  16. mrseeker

    mrseeker Former Member

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    I have yet to hear of another case of a child killed by a parent, hidden in the house, and the police called. I am not all knowing, especially sober, so maybe there are cases. There are plenty of examples of parents claiming children were snatched in the night, some were true kidnappings, some were children intentionally or accidentally murdered by a parent, or adult in the home. In all those cases the children have been taken somewhere, some never to be found. This is not evidence but it is statistics and logic. That is why I hold on to the thought, the stager at least, or the killer was not done. She was stopped when JR made her call the police. Makes no sense to call the cops when the body is just feet away in the middle of a small room. If it had been placed in a chest, or under a false floor or crawl space, then maybe it would be a little more logical but not where it was. So the only question i have is, who gave the death blow and was the garroting staging or was it some strange sexual assault. I think it was staging. You could assume BR hit his sister and then played out some strange act as she died....like torturing a wounded animal...I do not think a 9 year old would be this advanced in sexual perversion at this point. Where would he have gotten this idea? And this amount of deviant behavior at 9 would make me think he should be a serial killer by now. I do think PR staged this, to protect herself or BR. I think she was unclear in the head and used her imagination and memories of movies and books to stage the perfect crime...but JR made her call the police..plan A foiled..on to plan B.
     
  17. Djoop

    Djoop Member

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    Err.. I know I applied deductive reasoning here, but shamefully have to admit I can't reproduce it.

    With every theory, I just try to establish a feasible motive and narrative. There were quite a few posters who considered the possbility that Burke used the garrote. I question that, but tried to explore possible narratives.

    Playing kitty. I kind of agreed with the poster who deemed that unlikely. This was not an accident imho.
    As an act of sexual aggression (a possibility you suggested), a lust murder. I've tried to explain why that's extremely unlikely given Burke's age, the circumstances he found himself in and the lack of collaborating stories.
    As an act of aggression. Most feasible imho, and you could explore all kinds of disorders and circumstances. It could be premeditated in the sense that he thought about killing JBR before and acted on it in an act of rage.

    I still see the garrote as a spur of the moment thing, part of the staging that must have been done by Patsy, John or both.
     
  18. ThinkHard

    ThinkHard Former Member

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    Sexual aggression in children has ZERO to do with lust. They are not thinking about those sexual acts the way an adult would. And since you think of it by that definition I can understand why you don't follow that theory. But i think if you understood sexual aggressive behavior in children better, and understood it is more about control and not about sexual desires that line if logic would make a lot more sense to you.

    You still never answered my question by the way....who ever said anything about Burke staging the murder to cover up sexual abuse?

    I've not see anyone even suggest this, not once. And I'm not sure I am following exactmy how you got there either. I don't see a 9 year old boy staging this as hiding sexual abuse as his motive.

    His motive, in my opinion, is far more likely to be that he was a very messed up little boy, with extreme anger toward his sister, who he saw as the catalyst for his life getting all icky. After she was born, is when he got less attention, his mom was ill, they moved.....he likely associated her arrival with everything changing, and in his brain thought if she was just gone, everything would get back to normal. And I believe he acted out on his sister as a way to excerpt power and control over her.
     
  19. DakotaMayi

    DakotaMayi Former Member

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    I agree with you. When watching his interview where he drew the picture of his family minus Jonbenet he just came across so willing and happy to draw the picture, shouting out 'I've got one!.' It appeared as though with JB gone all the problems he thinks she bought along were gone too.
     
  20. ConcernedinDC

    ConcernedinDC New Member

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    Patsy said they stored an artificial tree/trees down there so yes.
     
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