Was Burke Involved? # 4

[Ambitioned]

He seems very evasive in regards to the Santa suit. He wants to take away the eyes looking at it and point to something else.

Kinda like Burke with the glass of tea. "Oh............"

 

[PositiveLight]

Supposedly when the Atlanta burglary happened they were down at the station cooperating and insisting the perp be found.

With Jonbenet, they did not cooperate. They surrounded themselves with friends (i.e. the gatekeeper), lawyers, public relations, and media appearances.

If it was IDI or FDI Patsy would throw them under the bus and be down at the station or cooperating with detectives and LE. If IDI she would have kept Burke by her side rather than sending him off to friends to avoid questions. Covering up for Burke is the only thing that makes sense. That and the language of the true bills.

Let's not turn out like the JB subreddit where everyone is grasping at straws trying to convince themselves Burke couldn't have done it. Why not? Three boys ages 9, 10, and 11 just doused a 10 yr old and set him on fire. We all know Burke had anger and resentment and was well capable of hurting JB.

Oh I'm totally BDI. I'm just trying to find holes in their story. When were they evasive. Looking for potential clues to things they wanted to hide. Both JR and PR become evasive during interviews. Im interested in what exactly got them worked up. I think that is when they can't hide behind their masks. Slight of hand type of comments. Don't look here..
LooK HERE.

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[Ambitioned]

Oh I'm totally BDI. I'm just trying to find holes in their story. When were they evasive. Looking for potential clues to things they wanted to hide. Both JR and PR become evasive during interviews. Im interested in what exactly got them worked up. I think that is when they can't hide behind their masks. Slight of hand type of comments. Don't look here..
LooK HERE.

Oh I know you're BDI. They got evasive about almost everything. What I do find interesting is that while Patsy was wailing she stared at the officer through splayed fingers. Either he was a stud or she was gauging his reaction to her staging, etc

Also she was really evasive about the handwriting questions. They showed her her ransom note "o" and her handwritten "o." They asked her for similarities and she said "Uh, they both have a hole?"

 

[PositiveLight]

Kinda like Burke with the glass of tea. "Oh............"

Exactly! I actually think if someone can stand to sit through all the interviews, they can go by body language and tone change and figure out exactly what they have been hiding all these years. THAT is where the truth lies. Hidden among all of the BS. There was never an intruder. I never thought once there was. Honestly. From day one I've said BDI. I don't mind chewing over pieces to see if there is anything new that new eyes or eyes who have been here since day one may put together when working as a well oiled machine. The evidence points inside the home. The only person BOTH parents would protect is their son. They wouldn't BOTH protect friends or even other family members. Or each other either. The only single living person both would protect is Burke. JMOO


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[UKGuy]

Hi Uk Guy, I agree that the wording "person" could be because it's referring to an infant.

What about the wording that John and Patsy assisted someone who they "knew had committed" and was "suspected"? Was Burke ever officially named or considered a suspect? Would that be relevant in that case? If Burke has never been an official suspect, would that maybe mean that there is someone else apart from the 3 people in the house- a person known to the parents, and possibly also to Burke?

If not BDI, (not saying it was or wasn't!), another alternative is that Burke is strange and "off" etc but without being guilty, and that he either witnessed something, or even interrupted someone else when he was downstairs alone in the middle of the night. Although, this is the most unlikely scenario, and it the simpler option is probably that he was the culprit.

Also, the wording says that John and Patsy both "knew" what the person they were assisting had done. Do you think that means that they definitely knew about the head bash? If they didn't, it would mean that Burke must have done the strangulation, and the parents both knew it. I guess we can't know the answer to that!

Also, the wording of "murder in the First Degree"- what exactly does that charge involve? Would that mean that the GJ believed it was done with deliberate intent, as that clearly doesn't mean an accident? All just speculation, imo, of course.

Scandigirl
John, Patsy and Burke Ramsey are all suspects in the death of JonBenet.

If not BDI, (not saying it was or wasn't!), another alternative is that Burke is strange and "off" etc but without being guilty, and that he either witnessed something, or even interrupted someone else when he was downstairs alone in the middle of the night. Although, this is the most unlikely scenario, and it the simpler option is probably that he was the culprit.

Burke might have behavioral issues without being guilty, but when you combine the circumstantial evidence with the GJ's indictment, he is patently the Person being referred to, it cannot be any of the parents, since they could simply be charged.

Also, the wording of "murder in the First Degree"- what exactly does that charge involve? Would that mean that the GJ believed it was done with deliberate intent, as that clearly doesn't mean an accident? All just speculation, imo, of course.

Yes, intentional, is accidental not second degree or something. The point being the GJ put BR in the frame, and Alex Hunter saved him from any publicity, now we can work out that he should have been charged with Murder 1 and Child Abuse. So unless there is an unknown accomplice distinct from BR, then I reckon the case is BDI!

.

 

[UKGuy]

BIB They don't know which one to name, is a possible reason.

Tortoise,
Sure, then they have the option of charging them all with Murder 1 and Child Abuse. Patsy and John have already been charged with assisting an offender and child neglect, i.e. same two charges for both parents.

Neither parent can be the Person since they have not been charged with Murder in the First Degree, or Child Abuse. If there had been four residents left alive in the house, then yes maybe they might not know, but there is only one person left, i.e. BR.

.

 

[flourish]

What is a day timer? *Goes to look it up* I think JR was being evasive to the Santa suit imho.

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Day Timer was a brand name of day planners.

Does he mean a day planner???

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[PositiveLight]

Oh I know you're BDI. They got evasive about almost everything. What I do find interesting is that while Patsy was wailing she stared at the officer through splayed fingers. Either he was a stud or she was gauging his reaction to her staging, etc

Also she was really evasive about the handwriting questions. They showed her her ransom note "o" and her handwritten "o." They asked her for similarities and she said "Uh, they both have a hole?"

Omg! The handwriting part! I wanted to pull my hair out! Seriously I don't know how anyone stood interviewing them for extended periods of time. At some point I would be ready to shake the heck out of them and ask them WHY AREN'T YOU HELPING US FIND YOUR DAUGHTER'S KILLER????

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[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
Sure, then they have the option of charging them all with Murder 1 and Child Abuse. Patsy and John have already been charged with assisting an offender and child neglect, i.e. same two charges for both parents.

Neither parent can be the Person since they have not been charged with Murder in the First Degree, or Child Abuse. If there had been four residents left alive in the house, then yes maybe they might not know, but there is only one person left, i.e. BR.

.

My previous post 997 already answers this, it is just becoming circular now.

 

[Tortoise]

Omg! The handwriting part! I wanted to pull my hair out! Seriously I don't know how anyone stood interviewing them for extended periods of time. At some point I would be ready to shake the heck out of them and ask them WHY AREN'T YOU HELPING US FIND YOUR DAUGHTER'S KILLER????

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Meanwhile LW objected to every question. It certainly was hairpulling stuff.

 

[Heymom]

Day Timer was a brand name of day planners.

They still exist! I use them and love the system. But they were big in the 1980's and 1990's too.

 

[Heymom]

Supposedly when the Atlanta burglary happened they were down at the station cooperating and insisting the perp be found.

With Jonbenet, they did not cooperate. They surrounded themselves with friends (i.e. the gatekeeper), lawyers, public relations, and media appearances.

If it was IDI or FDI Patsy would throw them under the bus and be down at the station or cooperating with detectives and LE. If IDI she would have kept Burke by her side rather than sending him off to friends to avoid questions. Covering up for Burke is the only thing that makes sense. That and the language of the true bills.

Let's not turn out like the JB subreddit where everyone is grasping at straws trying to convince themselves Burke couldn't have done it. Why not? Three boys ages 9, 10, and 11 just doused a 10 yr old and set him on fire. We all know Burke had anger and resentment and was well capable of hurting JB.

Thank you. Sometimes, you just have to accept the obvious, as horrible as it may be, and recognize that evil does exist in the world.

 

[Scandigirl]

Hi Heymom, thanks for your reply. I understand what you're saying. I've always been RDI, thinking it must be either JDI or PDI, some combination of the two, or even with a third party who mysteriously slipped under the radar. But, since Kolar's book, the Dr Phil interviews, the CBS show and seeing footage of Burke's childhood interviews, I'm now BDI.

I don't find it too difficult to believe or imagine Burke having deliberate intent or abusing JB before the killing (horrible though that is), nor do I struggle with John and Patsy protecting him. I asked UK Guy to help clarify the wording of the GJ indictment, because I'm not a legal person, and to be fair, there is room for a fair bit of confusion, even with regard to BDI.

For example, some people believe it was an unintentional accident, which is what Jim Clemente and the CBS show seemed to be concluding. Others (including myself!) think it was more likely deliberately intentional, and Werner Spitz is obviously being sued for suggesting this. In fairness, there's a big difference between accusing someone (whether adult or child) of an accident, or First Degree Murder with Child Abuse. And as Burke, as far as I know, was never declared an official suspect, I felt I needed clarification. Because if that would rule Burke out, then some third party might have to be considered (although I don't believe there is any evidence for this).

Your point that if a third party was involved in the background, then John and Patsy would have declared it, or it would have been uncovered by now, is an extremely good one, and I completely agree that is logical.

I'm not trying to argue or anything, and I know you weren't either- just trying to clarify my original post! I am BDI, but at this stage still exercising caution.

 

[Karinna]

Well i guess if you want to argue with the Forensic experts as to BR's culpability? The FB posting by Stan Garnett was interesting too.

(quote)


WHAT NEXT?

The Case of JonBenet Ramsey has caused a global uproar. It alleges that Burke Ramsey killed JonBenet by hitting her over the head with a torch after she tried to steal a piece of pineapple from his bowl on Christmas evening, 1996.

The forensics experts claim the parents John and Patsy then arranged a nylon cord around her neck, placed her in the basement under a blanket and tried to make it look as though an intruder had come in. Mrs Ramsey faked a ransom note and called the police on Boxing Day morning to report her child missing, they allege.
http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...e/news-story/d58137e2e1e15ec44e4d7778b53d1d00

 

[RL2]

What is a day timer? *Goes to look it up* I think JR was being evasive to the Santa suit imho.

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PL, What Santa suit???? Which interview is this from?

 

[Scandigirl]

Hi Karinna, I'm not sure if you're responding to my previous post, so apologies if not.

If so, just wanting to say that, sorry if I've given the impression I'm wanting to argue with any of the experts in this case. Definitely not- I'm just a member of the general public, feeling a bit of confusion about what all of the experts are saying about Burke's level of intent, although they all agree on him being responsible for the head bash. As I said earlier, it seems to differ across the board to some extent between an accident and deliberate murder, and obviously the two things put quite a different complexion on things.

My own personal leanings might not be correct at all, and I'm open minded- just trying to discuss and make sense of it all, as we all are. Certainly not wanting to argue with anyone- there is no dispute that Burke did the head bash. There has been some forum speculation about whether or not he may have done the strangulation and/or other things as well, although (forgive me if I'm wrong), I'm not sure any experts have directly claimed that.

I know most posters here are far more knowledgable and long term than I am, and have more facts and more accurate hunches than I do. I enjoy reading everyone's posts and viewpoints, so I'll bow out now for a while and continue reading and learning. Apologies for the way I may have worded things to give the wrong impression- my thoughts are often jumbled, and I often swing back and forth, trying to make sense of it all!

 

[CorallaroC]

Good morning Scandigirl, I think you are in a good place by thinking through all the strange pieces of the puzzle. Sometimes the known evidence makes ssense, sometimes it doesn't. Other times, the evidence seems to make sense even if the actual perp or motive does not. It is mind boggling at times. That is why I love this forum, lots of good minds coming together to help toward justice for JonBenet.

 

[Karinna]

Hi Karinna, I'm not sure if you're responding to my previous post, so apologies if not.

If so, just wanting to say that, sorry if I've given the impression I'm wanting to argue with any of the experts in this case. Definitely not- I'm just a member of the general public, feeling a bit of confusion about what all of the experts are saying about Burke's level of intent, although they all agree on him being responsible for the head bash. As I said earlier, it seems to differ across the board to some extent between an accident and deliberate murder, and obviously the two things put quite a different complexion on things.

My own personal leanings might not be correct at all, and I'm open minded- just trying to discuss and make sense of it all, as we all are. Certainly not wanting to argue with anyone- there is no dispute that Burke did the head bash. There has been some forum speculation about whether or not he may have done the strangulation and/or other things as well, although (forgive me if I'm wrong), I'm not sure any experts have directly claimed that.

I know most posters here are far more knowledgable and long term than I am, and have more facts and more accurate hunches than I do. I enjoy reading everyone's posts and viewpoints, so I'll bow out now for a while and continue reading and learning. Apologies for the way I may have worded things to give the wrong impression- my thoughts are often jumbled, and I often swing back and forth, trying to make sense of it all!

No Scandigirl my post wasn't aimed at you at all, it was just a generalisation. We can all argue with the experts if we want, as far as i know there is no law against that, and we are all entitled to our opinions

 

[Heymom]

Hi Heymom, thanks for your reply. I understand what you're saying. I've always been RDI, thinking it must be either JDI or PDI, some combination of the two, or even with a third party who mysteriously slipped under the radar. But, since Kolar's book, the Dr Phil interviews, the CBS show and seeing footage of Burke's childhood interviews, I'm now BDI.

I don't find it too difficult to believe or imagine Burke having deliberate intent or abusing JB before the killing (horrible though that is), nor do I struggle with John and Patsy protecting him. I asked UK Guy to help clarify the wording of the GJ indictment, because I'm not a legal person, and to be fair, there is room for a fair bit of confusion, even with regard to BDI.

For example, some people believe it was an unintentional accident, which is what Jim Clemente and the CBS show seemed to be concluding. Others (including myself!) think it was more likely deliberately intentional, and Werner Spitz is obviously being sued for suggesting this. In fairness, there's a big difference between accusing someone (whether adult or child) of an accident, or First Degree Murder with Child Abuse. And as Burke, as far as I know, was never declared an official suspect, I felt I needed clarification. Because if that would rule Burke out, then some third party might have to be considered (although I don't believe there is any evidence for this).

Your point that if a third party was involved in the background, then John and Patsy would have declared it, or it would have been uncovered by now, is an extremely good one, and I completely agree that is logical.

I'm not trying to argue or anything, and I know you weren't either- just trying to clarify my original post! I am BDI, but at this stage still exercising caution.

My mind returns to logic when nothing else works! LOL And my scientist husband is a bit more detached about the case and he agrees.

There would have been no reason for JR & PR NOT to have called an ambulance if they had found JB still alive. There was no blood from the head wound and unless they witnessed what happened, they wouldn't have known or suspected how bad it was. They did not call an ambulance. I believe that they found her already dead, and did what they felt they had to do in order to salvage Burke and not have him taken away by the police (I think they were unaware of the law at that time). It was probably Patsy's fears that drove this, but regardless - there was no bringing JB back by that point.

As to intention....As horrifying as it is to consider, BR could have done this with intention to harm his sister. Does any child of that age truly know what death is? I personally doubt it at the outset, but his behavior afterward tells me a lot about his emotions toward his sister's permanent departure. We have all seen the interviews and his grinning face at his sister's funeral. The fact that he never cried, but played with a friend in the cemetery...His parents are crying, but not Burke...

And now we have the Dr. Phil interview and all his derogatory comments about his sister...I don't think he was even aware of what he said or how he said it....how she "flaunted" herself...how one of her eyes was "droopy" in her casket....Still a need to tear her down, even 20 years after she was lowered into her grave....It's very telling.

His parents threw all of their former friends and employees under the bus - everyone they could think of casting suspicion upon...Would either of them do that for anyone but their child? I have to say "absolutely not!" to that! They stuck together as parents to protect the only child they had left as a couple (John has kids from a previous marriage).

The language of the GJ indictments is very clear to me and confirms everything in Chief Kolar's book. John and Patsy must have had ample warning that things could go in this direction yet they ignored the signs. I'd love to see all of the evidence or at the very least, the rest of the GJ's indictments. Maybe one day, we will.

Until then, RIP JonBenet. Some of us are still praying that you get justice one day.

 

[Scandigirl]

Phew, glad that misunderstanding (that wasn't one at all!) is cleared up! LOL at myself! Thanks for your reply!