Was Burke Involved? # 4

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kanzz

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Just a footnote, more or less. I'm certainly not defending the R's, but I'm just going to toss out a possibility -

Maybe they didn't get itemized statements on their cell phone bill. There was a time that my provider did not itemize unless the customer requested it. I once asked for the past month's itemization and was told it was not available because I hadn't opted for this service, so then I opted in. This might explain why there were no calls shown on the bill, but one would think LE could get that info. I have to admit, my search for more info on this topic didn't turn up much info, so I might be way off track here.
 

singularity

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SuperDave,
So how come neither parent was charged with Child Abuse the anonymous person in the True Bill indictment is so charged, e.g.

COUNT IV


COUNT VII


I used to think PDI was a possibility until I realized what the True Bills were saying, i.e. the unnamed person is a third party, neither JR or PR, otherwise either or both would have the Child Abuse charge leveled at them. That is neglecting the Murder in the First Degree, assuming a cross finger pointing defense.

That you have a Third Party leaves only one resident to consider as a suspect, unless you want to suggest an external party or friend of the parent?

.

How can an anonymous person be charged if this person is a minor? As we've heard a million times, a minor cannot be charged for these crimes in CO. The GJ would know this. The fact that these specific GJ charges even exist shows they weren't going in the direction of BDI. I know most cant stand Wood but he has a point on this matter.

Some say these bills are very clear and Burke is the only one that "makes sense". Obviously they are not very clear or this wouldn't even be open to debate.



I think getting him out of the house was the only option for them. Can you imagine all the questioning that was going on that morning?

Removing him from the home increases his chances of exposure and also being questioned without them being present. On top of BPD they had the FBI to contend with at that point. No one could imagine at the time how the case would be bungled to such a degree. The Ramseys have to think the body will be discovered fairly soon and that they'll all be questioned.

IF Burke had any involvment whatsoever, they literally gambled their entire lives by letting him out of their sight. Even in a house full of cops, they could have controlled access to Burke. They relinquished that control the moment he walked out the door and headed to Fleet's house.


I wouldn't give too much weight to Linda Arndt's statements, frankly. She had her own take on things and was out of her depth by a considerable amount.

Everyone involved in this case was "out of their depth". If you ignore peoples statements based on that, then you'd have to ignore the entire case.
 

Sunshine4Me

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Also did PR have a cell phone? Surely she did with all that money. Was it ever checked and records pulled? Or did that too fall onto their island of privacy? :notgood:
Who the hell gets an island of privacy anyway!?! That just ruffles this mama hens feathers!
I would like enough money to afford an island of privacy please!! Anyone? ??:laughing:
Lol at ransom book in your previous post! I believe Patsy had played musical cell phones with John but I will need to read back through some very old threads to be sure, and I can't do that tonight. If I remember correctly it was something to the effect of her saying John lost his cell phone and she bought him a new one for Christmas, but the thinking was that the cell phone had originally perhaps been for her, and John's cell phone actually "vanished" after the the morning of the murder. I am not positive as it's been a while since I've read that. I'll try to find it again and post if I do.
 

Ambitioned

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I thought I had read that there were NO calls at all for the month of December on JR cell phone? That they had been completely erased.

No calls, no videotape for Christmas morning. It's a ghost!! GDI

I agree calls were made to lawyers and yes money sure buys a lot. Didn't John have to sell his plane and boat?
 

PositiveLight

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No calls, no videotape for Christmas morning. It's a ghost!! GDI

I agree calls were made to lawyers and yes money sure buys a lot. Didn't John have to sell his plane and boat?
:laughing:GDI!!!! Hell I'm sure he had to sell his kidneys and Jacques the second. Poor John. Having to spend all of his millions shutting up everyone in America. He can thank his son for that. Oh and Patsy for writing the Ode to a Foreign Faction. :shame:
 

PositiveLight

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Lol at ransom book in your previous post! I believe Patsy had played musical cell phones with John but I will need to read back through some very old threads to be sure, and I can't do that tonight. If I remember correctly it was something to the effect of her saying John lost his cell phone and she bought him a new one for Christmas, but the thinking was that the cell phone had originally perhaps been for her, and John's cell phone actually "vanished" after the the morning of the murder. I am not positive as it's been a while since I've read that. I'll try to find it again and post if I do.
ohhh thank you if you can find that! That's one of those little pieces I keep forgetting about. I swear I'm going to make puzzle pieces with all the clues one day and see if they can ever fit together. But it would take months of work to even write up each piece of evidence.
Question... does all the evidence have to be scrapped even if some was botched? Can't there be salvagable parts?
 

No it's not

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ohhh thank you if you can find that! That's one of those little pieces I keep forgetting about. I swear I'm going to make puzzle pieces with all the clues one day and see if they can ever fit together. But it would take months of work to even write up each piece of evidence.
Question... does all the evidence have to be scrapped even if some was botched? Can't there be salvagable parts?

More here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?39880-Missing-Phone-Records

-Nin
 

HarmonyE.

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Just a footnote, more or less. I'm certainly not defending the R's, but I'm just going to toss out a possibility -

Maybe they didn't get itemized statements on their cell phone bill. There was a time that my provider did not itemize unless the customer requested it. I once asked for the past month's itemization and was told it was not available because I hadn't opted for this service, so then I opted in. This might explain why there were no calls shown on the bill, but one would think LE could get that info. I have to admit, my search for more info on this topic didn't turn up much info, so I might be way off track here.

I worked in a phone company legal department for a time and can confirm that LE would subpoena detailed phone records on both landlines and mobile phones back in the 90's. You may not have been seeing detailed invoices, but if the call records were requested soon enough, the phone company could produce them. I forget the time frame then - but it was shorter than you might think before the data was purged. But if LE requested landline and cell records shortly after the crime they would have had them. My own guess is no one thought of it until it was too late, but maybe someone knows more out here.
 

Bey

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Just watching the ID "documentary" (I'll use that term loosely) and at the beginning it states that the grand jury findings are still unknown. When was it made to be able to state this - the verdict has been public for a couple of years now, hasn't it?
 

debbiegarcia36

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Just watching the ID "documentary" (I'll use that term loosely) and at the beginning it states that the grand jury findings are still unknown. When was it made to be able to state this - the verdict has been public for a couple of years now, hasn't it?
I would guess that the statement refers to the evidence that was presented to the GJ has not been made public and is therefore unknown.

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observation

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Just watching the ID "documentary" (I'll use that term loosely) and at the beginning it states that the grand jury findings are still unknown. When was it made to be able to state this - the verdict has been public for a couple of years now, hasn't it?

Seems like folks like to forget that both PR and JR were both indicted for 2 charges each revealed in 2013. Mary Lacey's public apology in 2008 is always mentioned, it seems.


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Bey

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I'm watching the end of it now and shouting at the tv, while DH laughs at me :D
 

TeaTime

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As I get older, I sometimes have 'flashbacks' of memories of things that happened when I was very, very young or even as a teen. These are things I haven't thought about since they happened and then for no reason 'pop' into my head and I relive them briefly. Sometimes I am shocked that the memory was long gone as in 'how could I forget that?" Once they pop back into my mind, they stay there and can't be forgotten again. I don't know how this works but it does and it makes me think of when JR said that while BR was handling things well at the moment, he may have a delayed reaction when he is 40 years of age.

I believe that it is entirely possible that BR has compartmentalized the events of that night, pushed them far back into his memory and has been programmed to mis-remember things.
 

Heymom

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I worked in a phone company legal department for a time and can confirm that LE would subpoena detailed phone records on both landlines and mobile phones back in the 90's. You may not have been seeing detailed invoices, but if the call records were requested soon enough, the phone company could produce them. I forget the time frame then - but it was shorter than you might think before the data was purged. But if LE requested landline and cell records shortly after the crime they would have had them. My own guess is no one thought of it until it was too late, but maybe someone knows more out here.

This is true. This was before server space got so cheap as to be a non-factor. Now we can keep stuff until the end of time, for just about nothing.
 

RL2

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As I get older, I sometimes have 'flashbacks' of memories of things that happened when I was very, very young or even as a teen. These are things I haven't thought about since they happened and then for no reason 'pop' into my head and I relive them briefly. Sometimes I am shocked that the memory was long gone as in 'how could I forget that?" Once they pop back into my mind, they stay there and can't be forgotten again. I don't know how this works but it does and it makes me think of when JR said that while BR was handling things well at the moment, he may have a delayed reaction when he is 40 years of age.

I believe that it is entirely possible that BR has compartmentalized the events of that night, pushed them far back into his memory and has been programmed to mis-remember things.


Yes!! JR said that Burke's psychatrist/psychologist warned them that he may start "talking" about things he remembered when he's 40����������
 

UKGuy

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As I get older, I sometimes have 'flashbacks' of memories of things that happened when I was very, very young or even as a teen. These are things I haven't thought about since they happened and then for no reason 'pop' into my head and I relive them briefly. Sometimes I am shocked that the memory was long gone as in 'how could I forget that?" Once they pop back into my mind, they stay there and can't be forgotten again. I don't know how this works but it does and it makes me think of when JR said that while BR was handling things well at the moment, he may have a delayed reaction when he is 40 years of age.

I believe that it is entirely possible that BR has compartmentalized the events of that night, pushed them far back into his memory and has been programmed to mis-remember things.

TeaTime,
Thank you recounting your memory flashback's. Just shows nothing is really forgotten? You must consider Freud and his basic thoughts on the mind which I reckon were spot on, all his later stuff, psychology, etc is just him playing to the theory gallery, Oedipus Complex, just nonsense justifying familial relationships, etc.

I really value your post since it demonstrates you forgot that stuff because you thought it was a threat to your you as a young person, now older it can be re-membered, get it?

So yes you are on the button as regards BR.

.
 

Annapurna

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I fully believe that the R's compartmentalized so fully and thoroughly that they began to believe their own lies. I think they wrapped this event in more layers than an oyster does a pearl; justifications, denial and lies.

I think they "brainwashed" Burke into forgetting or at least believing it happened differently.

JR is the only one who may have not done this, perhaps so he could guide the family's public relations and legal efforts effectively.

I believe that even among themselves it was never spoken about (unless there was another media appearance, time to bring out the blue dress...). I bet PR wanted to dissociate more than anything. She did not want to believe what happened and so refused to acknowledge it. I think that is why PR went with the staging she did (though I think JR staged the body), so she wouldn't have to acknowledge that burkey did something bad...

They probably believe their own lies, imo.


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PositiveLight

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As I get older, I sometimes have 'flashbacks' of memories of things that happened when I was very, very young or even as a teen. These are things I haven't thought about since they happened and then for no reason 'pop' into my head and I relive them briefly. Sometimes I am shocked that the memory was long gone as in 'how could I forget that?" Once they pop back into my mind, they stay there and can't be forgotten again. I don't know how this works but it does and it makes me think of when JR said that while BR was handling things well at the moment, he may have a delayed reaction when he is 40 years of age.

I believe that it is entirely possible that BR has compartmentalized the events of that night, pushed them far back into his memory and has been programmed to mis-remember things.
I totally get what you mean here. Sometimes the strangest things seem to bring these memories forward too. Like a smell of a certain perfume or flower will bring you right back to a certain moment even if it wasn't a really important moment. Bit suddenly you remember it in perfect detail. I do this with sounds too. Or a song. The song will be something that was playing maybe in the background during the event I remember. The scary thing is though if it's a bad memory, I will go right back to that scared feeling I felt then and understand why I blocked it in the first place. Yet after remembering. It seems impossible to forget again. What worries me is what if something triggers those memories in him and he lashes out at whomever he is around or with. It's like PTSD.

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I fully believe that the R's compartmentalized so fully and thoroughly that they began to believe their own lies. I think they wrapped this event in more layers than an oyster does a pearl; justifications, denial and lies.

I think they "brainwashed" Burke into forgetting or at least believing it happened differently.

JR is the only one who may have not done this, perhaps so he could guide the family's public relations and legal efforts effectively.

I believe that even among themselves it was never spoken about (unless there was another media appearance, time to bring out the blue dress...). I bet PR wanted to dissociate more than anything. She did not want to believe what happened and so refused to acknowledge it. I think that is why PR went with the staging she did (though I think JR staged the body), so she wouldn't have to acknowledge that burkey did something bad...

They probably believe their own lies, imo.


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Well said! your post made me think about BRs response to seeing JBRs picture, "I don't remember her hair being that long". Weren't there any pictures of her in their house or photo albums? Your post brought back the feeling I had right after BR said that>> They couldn't look her in the eyes! Or he couldn't.

Bet you dollars to doughnuts the only time her pictures were brought out was when the cameras were rolling.
 
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