Was Burke Involved? # 4

[PositiveLight]

We'll never know, but there is a good chance she had no say in the matter. Pageants were Patsy's thing, and it's not normally something a child would even think about, let alone a 3 year old as Patsy claimed JonBenet was. I think for Patsy it was both a way to live through her daughter as well as bond and spend time with her given her precarious health.

There's no question JBR was an extrovert, but watching the videos available of her, she doesn't look like she's having a good time. To me she seems apprehensive and stressed. Pageants are not a thing in my neck of the woods, but I would think a kid who really loved doing this would look more natural - and generally appear to be having some fun.

Even kids who aren't overtly forced to perform may do it simply to please a parent. If I had to guess that's what's went on here. Makes me even sadder for her really. Her life was so short as it was, I hate to think she'd far rather have spent that time riding her bike or flying kites.

I think she did both. I think she was a little tomboy most of the time. If you watch her when she is just modeling her dress she seemed bored. But the moment her favorite parts come up she shines. She loved the talent and the sportswear. I feel her on this. I felt exited when I did my favorite things but the ones I didn't like you could probably tell with my expressions. I don't want to judge them too harshly on the pageant part. I think it was made to be something it wasn't. I think it was JonBenet and her mamas hobby. But that's just my opinion. I don't think a pedophile stalked her from there. She was a born performer. She begged her mama to let her do them. I think the only person who enjoyed it in a bad way was Burke. JMOO

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[PositiveLight]

I'm no expert in the case facts, but I've got a question for the BDI or even the RDI folks which I haven't seen addressed. (Personally, I lean towards BDI and the parents covered it up). But my question is this - if the theory is that someone in the family struck her in the head, and the garrote was staging, did the person(s) doing the staging realize JB was still alive? Did they carry out the staging and not realize at the time that they in fact killed her by asphyxiating her? Thanks in advance!

That's how I feel it went down. I don't even think they knew they were the ones to deliver the final death move. IF this is the case and it can now be proven, JR may be arrested for murder and he should be. I hope they are truly going back over this case with a fine tooth comb. Maybe JR or PR DNA- was on the ligature.if BR choked JonBenet I think it was by hand or some type of clothing article. But he wasn't strong enough to finish the job. When she seemed dead I think he left her there for her mother to find.half naked and assaulted. Then the cover up began.

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[PositiveLight]

That was one creepy video. It was as though they were wanting to portray themselves as the Healing Family.. and then came that phoney leaf moment with PR, followed by the smartass gesture by BR. I was like - wth did I just see? and I can't believe the R's allowed that to be released. I never quite understood it.

Kanzz I am so GLAD someone else noticed it too! Can you remember which show or interview it was in?

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[PositiveLight]

Sorry, PL, but I can't go along with you on this one. Far as I'm concerned, those pageants are about a half-step up from child *advertiser censored*. So what if they love it? Junkies love heroin, but it's still poison.

Believe me I totally see your point. It IS much different than when I was a young one. We practiced for hours each day not to mention classes too. Just wanting to give the reader something I experienced in the world of modeling pageants and twirling. I absolutely loved it. I won at nationals several times and I met SO many other kids that I would see often and we would play in between sets. If was an all around fun thing. Now a days though they wear fake hair fake teeth and spray tans. I'm not ok with that. I just wanted to give y'all a perspective from what it's like from someone who competed for 12 years. This is a type of outfit we would wear. Although my suits never had see through areas.

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[HarmonyE.]

I think she did both. I think she was a little tomboy most of the time. If you watch her when she is just modeling her dress she seemed bored. But the moment her favorite parts come up she shines. She loved the talent and the sportswear. I feel her on this. I felt exited when I did my favorite things but the ones I didn't like you could probably tell with my expressions. I don't want to judge them too harshly on the pageant part. I think it was made to be something it wasn't. I think it was JonBenet and her mamas hobby. But that's just my opinion. I don't think a pedophile stalked her from there. She was a born performer. She begged her mama to let her do them. I think the only person who enjoyed it in a bad way was Burke. JMOO

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I agree that the pageants only played a very indirect role in her death as her mother's focus on them took attention away from her son (a son who needed far more attention than he got), but the "she loved it, she begged to do it, she was a born performer" stuff all comes from the Ramseys. So I don't take it as gospel, especially when she went out of her way to tell a family friend that the trophies in her room really belonged to her mom not her. From the only visible evidence we have - the videos - I don't see a child who is having a great time whether she's modeling, dancing or singing.

 

[zencompass]

Believe me I totally see your point. It IS much different than when I was a young one. We practiced for hours each day not to mention classes too. Just wanting to give the reader something I experienced in the world of modeling pageants and twirling. I absolutely loved it. I won at nationals several times and I met SO many other kids that I would see often and we would play in between sets. If was an all around fun thing. Now a days though they wear fake hair fake teeth and spray tans. I'm not ok with that. I just wanted to give y'all a perspective from what it's like from someone who competed for 12 years. This is a type of outfit we would wear. Although my suits never had see through areas.

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Thank you for sharing your genuine experience having fun at the pageants when you were little. You explained very well how the experience was
for you and it was easy to see how much you enjoyed the fun and excitement with the pageants.

I greatly appreciated you sharing this because I don't know anyone who was in pageants so you showed a snapshot of how it was for you.
It sounds like you had fun and looking back you didn't see any sexualization with the costumes and the choreography. Sounds like
that was not the atmosphere when and where you were during the pageants you were in. Maybe it was more like dress up and fun.

However some pageants are more mired in sexualization with costumes and choreography. Also, some of them include makeup and
hair and costumes that can make a five year old look like she is thirteen. I don't know why they do this other than sexualizing all of it.

JonBenet may have been a bit of a tomboy but in the photos she has her arms stretched out in a superstar pose. Maybe this speaks
more to her age - posing like a "superstar."

Perhaps she liked the spotlight but not all of the preparation for the pageants. Perhaps she went along with the pageant world as she instinctively knew
that that was the other way to get "close" to her mother. It is evident that her father was very proud of her winning the pageants so
this may have been a factor to her so that she could feel close to her father, who was usually absent from the home.

Most things in life are never quite clear to us and many times we only see what snapshot is offered to us. How JonBenet genuinely felt
about all of the pageant atmosphere well we will never know, unfortunately.

It is my feeling that Patsy felt joy in preparation and the whole atmosphere of pageants with JonBenet. In my opinion it looks like this was
the only atmosphere where Patsy felt "joy". Perhaps this was a distraction for her in the way that some people turn to substances. I don't know,
of course. But we do know that her husband was rarely at home and we know that Patsy pushed the fantasy of a "perfect family" towards
people outside of the family.

I tend to think that perhaps this was not JonBenet's view of the pageant atmosphere but it looks like there was so much denial in that
home that perhaps JonBenet grabbed this opportunity to get out of the house and the atmosphere there.

As for Patsy with the pageants - I feel that sometimes people reach out for a different world because it is less painful than to acknowledge what
is actually going on in the home. I am acknowledging the human condition.

When you shared your positive experience with pageants I could see another side of it. Thank you for sharing this with us because all I know of pageants
is what I read about and on tv they love to show us the most sensational aspects (sexualized aspects) of the pageants. It certainly looks like the pageants
you were involved in were not like this. You gave us a different perspective and we each have our own unique perspective and experience.

Unfortunately because most of the pageants now sexualize the children with the costumes, make up and choreography, in order to win
these competitions this is now the status quo. It is so sad. It is obvious from your experience that this was not the case in the
pageants you were in.

My view of pageants is that children are given a message that "beauty" counts more than anything. This is why I am not a fan of them.
But that's just me. Plus, I have never had experience of being in a pageant nor do I know anyone who has been in them. That's
why I appreciate you sharing your experience.

It is not easy to share an experience with something that so many people have negative connotations with and so thank you for the courage
to explain how your experience with pageants was.

Thank you for sharing your unique experience on this.

 

[kanzz]

Kanzz I am so GLAD someone else noticed it too! Can you remember which show or interview it was in?Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

No, sorry. I searched after I saw your post and still didn't turn up anything. If I come across it again, I'll post a link.

 

[zencompass]

Hi HarmonyE,

I certainly agree about Patsy's focus being on the pageants. I tend to think it was her way of "coping" with what was going on. A distraction from real life.
So sad and tragic but sometimes people reach out to involve themselves in another world because their own is too painful to look at.

Then I think of "if onlys". If only a relative or a good friend stepped in. If that had happened - could this all have turned out differently?
I don't know. The atmosphere of the home had to have been evident to relatives or friends. Then again - was it ? Or was it hidden?

I only have to look at the child endangerment conclusion that the Grand Jury arrived at to wonder just how many years it really did encompass.

 

[zencompass]

I am hoping and praying that this lawsuit is a catalyst to unseal the entire Grand Jury documentation.

B.R.'s medical information, especially the testimony from his doctor would then be unsealed. Perhaps then we can unearth truth to
B.R.'s involvement and what led to it.

In my opinion, to deny the unsealing of the Grand Jury files is to deny justice for JonBenet.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I am hoping and praying that this lawsuit is a catalyst to unseal the entire Grand Jury documentation.

B.R.'s medical information, especially the testimony from his doctor would then be unsealed. Perhaps then we can unearth truth to
B.R.'s involvement and what led to it.

In my opinion, to deny the unsealing of the Grand Jury files is to deny justice for JonBenet.

I tend to doubt the civil case (or cases, as the case may be) will be considered compelling enough reasons for the court to unseal the entire GJ proceedings and the full conclusion. The civil defense attorneys will have to work with the little that has been unsealed. While that may not enough for any justice for JonBenet, I think what does exist will help in the defense of any defamation lawsuits brought by Burke and John.

 

[Heymom]

That's how I feel it went down. I don't even think they knew they were the ones to deliver the final death move. IF this is the case and it can now be proven, JR may be arrested for murder and he should be. I hope they are truly going back over this case with a fine tooth comb. Maybe JR or PR DNA- was on the ligature.if BR choked JonBenet I think it was by hand or some type of clothing article. But he wasn't strong enough to finish the job. When she seemed dead I think he left her there for her mother to find.half naked and assaulted. Then the cover up began.

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Strangling by hands leaves marks. So does being strangled with clothing. She was choked with the ligature.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

Kanzz I am so GLAD someone else noticed it too! Can you remember which show or interview it was in?

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It's on the a&e docu. "Killing of Jonbenet: Her Father Speaks". It's about 2 minutes in.

 

[Heymom]

It's on the a&e docu. "Killing of Jonbenet: Her Father Speaks". It's about 2 minutes in.

I can't find this except for paying on youtube. Any ideas where else we can get a cut of it? I'd like to see that.

 

[kanzz]

I can't find this except for paying on youtube. Any ideas where else we can get a cut of it? I'd like to see that.

Well. That stinks! I have it recorded. Checked to see if there is another showing scheduled - but unfortunately there isn't.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm no expert in the case facts, but I've got a question for the BDI or even the RDI folks which I haven't seen addressed. (Personally, I lean towards BDI and the parents covered it up). But my question is this - if the theory is that someone in the family struck her in the head, and the garrote was staging, did the person(s) doing the staging realize JB was still alive? Did they carry out the staging and not realize at the time that they in fact killed her by asphyxiating her? Thanks in advance!

CodeSiren,

Nobody really knows. Yet JR offered his thoughts on the subject, bear in mind he might be laying a false trail here.

JR claims ignorance

JR: Well, I guess my impression is that it was in the basement. But that's just purely an assumption. We didn't hear a thing. I think if she had cried out or - you know, we would have heard that. I didn't know she had any head injury at all. It wasn't - I just didn't see....
LS: You had no knowledge?

JR's implied inference is that JonBenet was asphyxiated because the blow to the head failed?

Its feasible to concieve of BR causing JonBenet to enter a coma and for the parents to decide to stage her death, so they start with a blow to the head that does not work so they use a ligature.

Similarly you can have BR responsible for the head blow and the parents the application of the ligature.

Lastly BR might have done it all, head blow, ligature asphyxiation, with the parents staging the remaining details.

.

 

[Annapurna]

I find it so very hard to believe that someone would try to kill her by hitting her on the top of her head as a backup plan. There are a million ways to kill someone that are more guaranteed than just whacking the top of the skull. Even with that horrific fracture it's likely she lived for a while after. It makes much more sense that she would be strangled because the head wound didn't kill her than the other way around (not that I think that is what happened, just saying the likelihood).


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[PositiveLight]

It's on the a&e docu. "Killing of Jonbenet: Her Father Speaks". It's about 2 minutes in.

THANK YOU!!!

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[Heymom]

I find it so very hard to believe that someone would try to kill her by hitting her on the top of her head as a backup plan. There are a million ways to kill someone that are more guaranteed than just whacking the top of the skull. Even with that horrific fracture it's likely she lived for a while after. It makes much more sense that she would be strangled because the head wound didn't kill her than the other way around (not that I think that is what happened, just saying the likelihood).


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The autopsy proved that she had died from asphyxiation, *after* the head would, because she bled from that trauma (and the vaginal trauma) until she was choked to death. So we can put any other scenario firmly out of our minds.

The way JR words his response, it dovetails nicely with he and Patsy thinking she'd just been choked to death and that they didn't know about the skull fracture (maybe Burke didn't tell them?). Imagine how hard it would have been to show no emotion when the detectives asked them questions...of course, they'd already known through Hunter feeding their attorneys information, but still...I cannot imagine having to go through that whole experience. It would have been so much easier just to tell the truth and trust in God to get them through it....Patsy took over for God that morning....

 

[PositiveLight]

Thank you for sharing your genuine experience having fun at the pageants when you were little. You explained very well how the experience was
for you and it was easy to see how much you enjoyed the fun and excitement with the pageants.

I greatly appreciated you sharing this because I don't know anyone who was in pageants so you showed a snapshot of how it was for you.
It sounds like you had fun and looking back you didn't see any sexualization with the costumes and the choreography. Sounds like
that was not the atmosphere when and where you were during the pageants you were in. Maybe it was more like dress up and fun.

However some pageants are more mired in sexualization with costumes and choreography. Also, some of them include makeup and
hair and costumes that can make a five year old look like she is thirteen. I don't know why they do this other than sexualizing all of it.

JonBenet may have been a bit of a tomboy but in the photos she has her arms stretched out in a superstar pose. Maybe this speaks
more to her age - posing like a "superstar."

Perhaps she liked the spotlight but not all of the preparation for the pageants. Perhaps she went along with the pageant world as she instinctively knew
that that was the other way to get "close" to her mother. It is evident that her father was very proud of her winning the pageants so
this may have been a factor to her so that she could feel close to her father, who was usually absent from the home.

Most things in life are never quite clear to us and many times we only see what snapshot is offered to us. How JonBenet genuinely felt
about all of the pageant atmosphere well we will never know, unfortunately.

It is my feeling that Patsy felt joy in preparation and the whole atmosphere of pageants with JonBenet. In my opinion it looks like this was
the only atmosphere where Patsy felt "joy". Perhaps this was a distraction for her in the way that some people turn to substances. I don't know,
of course. But we do know that her husband was rarely at home and we know that Patsy pushed the fantasy of a "perfect family" towards
people outside of the family.

I tend to think that perhaps this was not JonBenet's view of the pageant atmosphere but it looks like there was so much denial in that
home that perhaps JonBenet grabbed this opportunity to get out of the house and the atmosphere there.

As for Patsy with the pageants - I feel that sometimes people reach out for a different world because it is less painful than to acknowledge what
is actually going on in the home. I am acknowledging the human condition.

When you shared your positive experience with pageants I could see another side of it. Thank you for sharing this with us because all I know of pageants
is what I read about and on tv they love to show us the most sensational aspects (sexualized aspects) of the pageants. It certainly looks like the pageants
you were involved in were not like this. You gave us a different perspective and we each have our own unique perspective and experience.

Unfortunately because most of the pageants now sexualize the children with the costumes, make up and choreography, in order to win
these competitions this is now the status quo. It is so sad. It is obvious from your experience that this was not the case in the
pageants you were in.

My view of pageants is that children are given a message that "beauty" counts more than anything. This is why I am not a fan of them.
But that's just me. Plus, I have never had experience of being in a pageant nor do I know anyone who has been in them. That's
why I appreciate you sharing your experience.

It is not easy to share an experience with something that so many people have negative connotations with and so thank you for the courage
to explain how your experience with pageants was.

Thank you for sharing your unique experience on this.

You're welcome. I thoroughly loved it. Now practicing every day for several hours was tough I have to admit. But it was required to compete and do well. It didn't have all to do with beauty. At least in baton competitions. Let me set it up for you. Mind you this was in the 80's and early 90's. Ok for a baton competition, they were usually held in a inside gymnasium on the basketball court. Down the middle length would be tables lined up facing both directions. Like 6 person card tables. There would usually be 1-2 judges at each table plus an extra "runner" who would run the scoring papers to the area where they would be tallied. After an hour or two the results would be posted on a board and you would receive your trophy or crown. Now that is if you were also competing in solo competitions. Usually there was a main competition in your age group and also broke down into different categories from there from novice to super advanced. I was in super advanced. Once you won a competition in a certain category you moved up to the next level and could no longer compete in the lower levels. I'm hoping this makes sense so far.
Ok in the main category for example you had to model. After you modeled you waited for the judges to finish writing their scores then they called you to the table for about a 3-4 minute interview. This was added to your modeling score. (If you were also competing solo in some of the other modeling categories you would go to the next lane assigned. The basketball floor would have like 8-10 lanes. 4-5 facing opposite sides. So when you were modeling or twirling, there would be up to 8-10 other contestants doing the same in their lanes broke down in age and level.) They posted which lanes for which competition on the walls first thing in the morning and if any of your competitions collided, they would usually move your position in one of the lineups so that you would have time to recover before the next event. Ok in the main event the next part of the 3 part series was a fancy strut. It was more marching and twirling that involved stretching and movement. Kinda of similar to floor exercises in the gymnastics portion of the Olympics. It had to have certain components to qualify. It was done in a strict hour glass shape broke into 5 parts. It was performed to marching music over the loud speakers and you HAD to stay in time with the beat. Any faults would be distracted from your score. The final leg of the competition involved a "solo". It was also broke down into 5 parts. You were judged on skill, timing and it wasn't easy.
Now you could also compete in the solo competitions. Like solo "solos", solo fancy struts solo modeling etc. Those trophies you just picked up at the trophy table after the judging results would be posted. I also twirled hoop, flag, two baton and three baton. Each had their own competitions. So you DID stay busy all day and late into the night and sometimes it was the whole weekend depending on if it was state or regionals. The "main competition" in your category and level would be announced at the end and you would "take the floor" to receive your trophies and crowns. Me for example when I went to nationals one of the years, I was "Miss SouthEast Super Advanced 10-12 year old." Nationals used to be held at the University of Notre Dame. It lasted a week. My division, super advanced, was done on the Notre Dame basketball court. I competed like 5 times I think at nationals. One year I had pneumonia and it was horrid. But I stuck in there
And competed. You work all year towards that goal. I was also a member of a large group of girls of different ages who competed in twirling routines together as a group. I'm still friends with this group of girls. We grew up together forming tight friendships and support for each other even if we competed against each other.
Now beauty pageants were different. I would break them down into three categories. One was simply modeling in a dress. You didn't wear fake hair or tonssss of makeup or fake teeth. Sometimes I saw where judges would comment the person had too much makeup on! Then the next type would be like one that had the modeling, photography, and talent and interview.
Then the last type would be just modeling and interview. You usually saw the same girls and it was great fun catching up with each other. That was back in the day when you used to have pen pals!😂 we would write each other often. So back then it wasn't like it is now. I don't like seeing these glitz pageants where the kids look fake. It's grotesque in my opinion. The only time our hair was actually down was our modeling portion. After that it went up in eye pulling tight buns or braids and sprayed stiff not to move. So after the modeling it was all about skill. That's when your hard work showed through.
I do hope this all made sense. I just know that when I was growing up it wasn't all this fake crap. The stage moms were few and far between and it was nothing to have one mom doing several kids hair and makeup that may compete against each other. We helped each other out and supported one another. I also want to add that both my mama and daddy were involved in my twirling and my brother's scouts. We supported each other and a lot of the time my brother spent flirting with the girls he went to school with who were older than me but twirled together. He was a flirt! Haha

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[singularity]

Now imagine if it was your child murdered. Take a minute and think if it was your only remaining child who possibly did it. That would cause that conflict in emotions. John wasn't mad at the killer remember? They wanted to know only 'why'. 6 days after their daughters brutal death in their own home. And they weren't mad? They didn't want justice? They just wanted to know why? I think PR wanted to just scream in that interview. There's no telling what occurred when they were alone with BR after the murder. Maybe he just smiled that creepy smile and she realized she protected a monster. After that, she had to stick to the story.

Fair point but the same would be true if another family member murdered her. Wanting to know why.....the desire to "get on with their lives".....etc. This family's reaction to her murder and their unconventional handling of its aftermath isn't BDI exclusive. Hell....the way the Ramseys conducted themselves was enough to rule out any IDI scenarios.

When was she not stoned. She still seemed to have an angry undertone when she was speaking in that interview. I don't know who she was angry at but she seemed torn between crying and tearing someone's eyes out. I think we've all been at that point sometime in our lives where your heart is so completely broken and you are so MAD someone did that to you. Now imagine if it was your child murdered. Take a minute and think if it was your only remaining child who possibly did it. That would cause that conflict in emotions. John wasn't mad at the killer remember? They wanted to know only 'why'. 6 days after their daughters brutal death in their own home. And they weren't mad? They didn't want justice? They just wanted to know why? I think PR wanted to just scream in that interview. There's no telling what occurred when they were alone with BR after the murder. Maybe he just smiled that creepy smile and she realized she protected a monster. After that, she had to stick to the story.
There's a video I see occasionally, it's a snippet of a outdoor scene with Patsy walking in front of John and Burke over a little bridge. It looks to be fall. Patsy picks up a pretty leaf for Burke to look at and lays it on the railing of the wooden bridge. Burke flicks it off the railing as if flicking of a disgusting bug. I honestly think that showed a crack in the perfect grieving family exterior. There was turmoil going on between the three of them. I think in a way, Patsy never forgave Burke. I think John had to shield Burke from Patsy. From her anger at him. I probably couldn't forgive my child either if he killed my other child.

Is this video on youtube? Even though I've watched the docs I am drawing a blank for some reason on this particular scene.



edit: Scratch that..... s(he) be(lie)ve(d) posted which show it was on.