Was Burke Involved? # 4

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Heymom

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So we don't have a confirmation that these really ARE the long johns JBR was wearing when she was "found" by her dad? I'd really like to know, because the panties and these thermal underwear are *not* in her size and neither would have stayed in place had she been able to stand up. If she was found in these, then someone dressed her in them while she was unconscious but before she actually passed away, because she released her bladder contents. All this time, I thought she had only urinated a tiny bit, and bled a tiny bit, into the new Bloomies, but if this is real, there is a different scenario to consider.
 

BOESP

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What stood out to me was this portion of the interview (BBM):

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw
22 JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you
23 think? It wasn't her pajamas.
24 JOHN RAMSEY: On the morning I
25 found her?

0691

JonBenet was found in the afternoon.
 

kanzz

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So we don't have a confirmation that these really ARE the long johns JBR was wearing when she was "found" by her dad? I'd really like to know, because the panties and these thermal underwear are *not* in her size and neither would have stayed in place had she been able to stand up. If she was found in these, then someone dressed her in them while she was unconscious but before she actually passed away, because she released her bladder contents. All this time, I thought she had only urinated a tiny bit, and bled a tiny bit, into the new Bloomies, but if this is real, there is a different scenario to consider.
I do think these are the long johns she was wearing when she died and found by JR. I don't think we can tell what size they are by looking at the photo.
 

singularity

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What stood out to me was this portion of the interview (BBM):

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw
22 JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you
23 think? It wasn't her pajamas.
24 JOHN RAMSEY: On the morning I
25 found her?

0691

JonBenet was found in the afternoon.
They make multiple slip ups like that in all the interviews. They are never called on it. Whoever asked the question just moves on like nothing was said. Its way beyond incompetence.

A lot of these people need to be in prison. It would be ironic if these people who spent 20 years to keep the Ramseys out of prison wind up rotting in a cell themselves.




On the subject of these being so big they would fall down immediately, we don't know their exact size and even if they are too big, she wasn't going to run a 50 yard dash. She'd be sleeping in them. Furthest she'd probably walk is the bathroom. More than likely its not even the first time she wore them. If we can take the housekeeper's statements at face value, this was a normal, everyday thing in this house.
 

Heymom

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I do think these are the long johns she was wearing when she died and found by JR. I don't think we can tell what size they are by looking at the photo.

I will wait for further confirmation that these are the panties and long johns she was found in. We know the Bloomies are size 12, and if you compare them to the long johns, you'd have to conclude that those bottoms are about that same size, and are stretched out as well. She could not have worn either of these articles of clothing if she were standing up - they'd have fallen down to the floor.
 

PositiveLight

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What stood out to me was this portion of the interview (BBM):

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw
22 JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you
23 think? It wasn't her pajamas.
24 JOHN RAMSEY: On the morning I
25 found her?

0691

JonBenet was found in the afternoon.
Great catch!

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kanzz

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I will wait for further confirmation that these are the panties and long johns she was found in. We know the Bloomies are size 12, and if you compare them to the long johns, you'd have to conclude that those bottoms are about that same size, and are stretched out as well. She could not have worn either of these articles of clothing if she were standing up - they'd have fallen down to the floor.
I'm not sure how to compare the Bloomies to the long johns since they are in two separate photos and the scale isn't visible in the photo of the long johns. For all I know, they could be knicker-style 6T. The cuffs are a little stretched, but the waistband is in good shape. Oh heck.. IDK.
 

UKGuy

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So you think she was redressed in soiled clothing? That's basically what it boils down to now. She's wearing these items before all hell breaks loose.


There are three possibilities....

Jonbenet putting them on herself
Patsy putting them on her for humiliation that ties into their issues
Burke putting them on her after he's attacked her

I suppose John could be included into the mix for staging purposes similar to Burke but that is unlikely.



I'm not buying crossdressing either but there are still layers of this family's dysfunction yet to be revealed.


I should have worded that differently. What I meant was she was not found in fresh panties like has been assumed for years. THis was considered a huge aspect of the staging. Remove the 'dirty' underwear/pajamas and a fresh pair is put on her. These panties/long johns are extremely soiled and it makes one question why the need to remove the others in the first place....if she was even wearing the other panties/pajamas in the first place.




It's something a child might do. It's also something a mother might do to her child in an extreme situation.....as in putting her "big girl pants" on.




Barbie nightgown might be there by accident....




and I question if the size 6 panties and pajama bottoms were truly "missing". Its not like they went over the place with a fine tooth comb and when they're letting Ramseys walk through the house grabbing everything but the kitchen sink, they don't really seem too keen on finding them.

Hell....the tape was a big mystery yet otg spotted tape in a basement pic that's been around for eons.

besides, if Jonbenet was wearing these panties and long johns before she was attacked, she wasn't wearing the size 6 panties and pajama bottoms that night.


If these two were "playing doctor" on a regular basis, why is she saying no now all of a sudden and what would warrant such an extreme reaction from Burke? He's not some cousin visiting for the holidays who is running out of time to be with her. Burke has daily access to Jonbenet. He can easily go play his Nintendo and try to "play doctor" the next day in Charlevoix.

Yeah and I strongly disagree with that.



Why would Burke dress her in soiled clothing?
.
Why would John and/or Patsy dress her in soiled clothing?

Me either. I don't think its an aspect of the staging.

So they washed her other clothing but put those soiled panties/long johns on her?


Not sure. All I know is this is the biggest piece of evidence to surface in years. It changes the perception of how this all played out.

The illusion of a remorseful mother and/or father(or son) cleaning their daughter/sister and putting fresh clothing on her has been shattered.

Wiping down a murder victim after redressing her in soiled clothing? I'd love to see a profiler's take on such an UNSUB. Dollars to donuts they've never seen it happen before.



While you can imagine Burke doing all this, I can just as easily imagine a dysfunctional mother who is periodically loaded to the gills on mothers little helpers and fed up with her childrens soiling issues making her daughter wear these things for humiliation purposes.

She was wearing the same top she wore to the party along with these panties/long johns. If you go by that alone, looks like a certain someone may have gotten peeved before the top came off.

John claims he took her boots off and Patsy took it from there. I bet...

Dead in the water? To use the words of Patsy:

You're going down the wrong path buddy... :drumroll:

singularity,
I should have worded that differently. What I meant was she was not found in fresh panties like has been assumed for years. THis was considered a huge aspect of the staging. Remove the 'dirty' underwear/pajamas and a fresh pair is put on her. These panties/long johns are extremely soiled and it makes one question why the need to remove the others in the first place....if she was even wearing the other panties/pajamas in the first place.
This shows you and probably many other people have misunderstood, even misread, what has been said about the size-12's over the years.

Here is my position on the size-12's and long johns. JonBenet was staged to look as if she went to bed in the clothes she was found in.

This includes clean on size-12's and similarly clean on long johns, the latter PR says she fetched herself as JonBenet's pink pajama bottoms were missing.

As part of a minimal BDI BR redressed JonBenet in clean size-12's and clean long johns.

Why would Burke dress her in soiled clothing?
Who said he did, you are misunderstanding the theory.

So they washed her other clothing but put those soiled panties/long johns on her?
You have misread what I posted.

Wiping down a murder victim after redressing her in soiled clothing? I'd love to see a profiler's take on such an UNSUB. Dollars to donuts they've never seen it happen before.
Again, you misread.

While you can imagine Burke doing all this, I can just as easily imagine a dysfunctional mother who is periodically loaded to the gills on mothers little helpers and fed up with her childrens soiling issues making her daughter wear these things for humiliation purposes.
Great imagination, little supporting evidence, never a motive for murder.

You're going down the wrong path buddy...
Yes many members perceptions regarding JonBenet's death is lets say skewed

.
 

UKGuy

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What stood out to me was this portion of the interview (BBM):

21 MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw
22 JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you
23 think? It wasn't her pajamas.
24 JOHN RAMSEY: On the morning I
25 found her?

0691

JonBenet was found in the afternoon.


BOESP,
JR is only agreeing with Mike Kane's tense:
MIKE KANE: Okay. When you saw JonBenet in longjohns that morning, what did you think? It wasn't her pajamas.

.
 

UKGuy

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Not focusing solely on your post, Charliegirl, but simply because you asked, I wanted to add this respectful caution about some photos seen on the forum. First - can someone please tell me in what program these photos of the nightgown, urine stained leggings and panties were presented? I have some reservations about all of them. The BPD would not release photos of these to the public, and it may be they are all re-creations for a TV audience. I’m not totally discounting them, but unless photos are from some other reliable source besides TV, I’d suggest caution in using them to enhance theories.

When a photo says “Crime Scene Photo Not for Publication”, its origination is from Smit. Smit’s photos are not reliable in that he circled items to prove his imaginary intruder. The BPD photo which shows suspicion about something on the carpet is one in which there’s a square of carpeting removed by technicians for testing.

As far as JR expressing surprise about the nightgown, he did that a lot in reference to various items in the home and at the crime scene. It was his style in order to show 'innocence' or 'naivete'. He almost got away with claiming he didn't know that JB wet the bed, but housekeeper LW busted him on that, and he later revised his story that it 'was no big deal.'

IIRC, there was a drop of blood on the nightgown (info from the Bonita papers) as well as tDNA (info from Kolar’s book). It did not come straight from the dryer, clinging to the blanket, but was likely placed in the wc by one of them. PR finally admitted that it was JB’s favorite Barbie nightgown after Nedra and PR’s sister told investigators about it being a favorite.

There were at least 2 stagers, and it may be considered that PR visited the basement after JR had gone to bed and revised the crime scene, cutting the wrist ties which may have been attached to the neck ligature, thereby loosening them. If she did revisit and revise the scene, she may have been experiencing some intense emotions which caused her to change the RN to Mr. Ramsey instead of Mr. and Mrs. R which was the original beginning of the RN. Anyway, just speculation on that.

questfortrue,
IIRC, there was a drop of blood on the nightgown (info from the Bonita papers) as well as tDNA (info from Kolar’s book). It did not come straight from the dryer, clinging to the blanket, but was likely placed in the wc by one of them. PR finally admitted that it was JB’s favorite Barbie nightgown after Nedra and PR’s sister told investigators about it being a favorite.
Yes the explanation for the pink nighgown is known as an ad hoc explanation. Early in the case there seemed no reasonable explanation for the pink nightgown, so someone suggested in arrived via static on the blanket.

If you are staging a crime-scene you will not miss the nightgown since by definition it must be under the blanket, and will become visible when you lift JonBenet up.

Also BR's touch-dna was found on the allegedly freshly washed nightgown, along with JonBenet's blood. So the nightgown has a role to play and its not an ad hoc one.

The nightgown links BR to JonBenet and that crime-scene in particular, just as if the pajama bottoms lying on JonBenet's bedroom floor are BR's, this links him to another crime-scene.

.
 

UKGuy

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I'm not doubting that she urinated outside the wine cellar. What this now shows is that she was already wearing this clothing before it happened. Sure we could speculate til the cows come home on how many times she may have urinated, how big her bladder was, etc. to bolster or tear away at each pet theory but that's neither here nor there in the face of the evidence at the moment. Just about every scenario has her being strangled and then the remorseful parents(or Burke) clean her up and redress her in brand new yet oversized panties due to her original pair being soiled and then the rest of the staging commences. We can now take the 'he/she/they redressed her in new clothing after she was murdered' out of the equation.

In the darkness they may not have seen it but they certainly smelled it and felt it. Look at those stains again. She was drenched.

I hope more evidence continues to trickle out.

singularity,
Just about every scenario has her being strangled and then the remorseful parents(or Burke) clean her up and redress her in brand new yet oversized panties due to her original pair being soiled and then the rest of the staging commences.
Absolutely not, this is your misunderstanding.

After JonBenet is sexually assaulted and whacked on the head, she is cleaned up and redressed in clean size-12's and clean long johns.

Then she is moved to the basement where again she is wiped clean, Coroner Meyer confirms this in his verbal AR, then possibly a sexual assault is staged and she is ligature asphyxiated, allowing the release of urine. Read the Autopsy Report for the details, which the published images make evident.
 

kanzz

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singularity,

Absolutely not, this is your misunderstanding.

After JonBenet is sexually assaulted and whacked on the head, she is cleaned up and redressed in clean size-12's and clean long johns.

Then she is moved to the basement where again she is wiped clean, Coroner Meyer confirms this in his verbal AR, then possibly a sexual assault is staged and she is ligature asphyxiated, allowing the release of urine. Read the Autopsy Report for the details, which the published images make evident.

Or - maybe she could have had those same clothes on beforehand and it all could have taken place in the basement? The head bash, molestation, (or even vice versa) clean-up, pulling up of the underwear and long johns, then the ligature strangulation. Next comes the staging, etc. I just re-read the AR. Am I missing something there?
 

treeseeker

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She quite possibly lost bodily function when she was hit, as that was a massive head wound. There was a urine stain on carpet outside the door of the wine cellar. It seems inefficient or awkward (sorry, I struggled with the right word) to place a ligature on her in the hall, and then move her into the cellar.
 

kanzz

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She quite possibly lost bodily function when she was hit, as that was a massive head wound. There was a urine stain on carpet outside the door of the wine cellar. It seems inefficient or awkward (sorry, I struggled with the right word) to place a ligature on her in the hall, and then move her into the cellar.
Unlikely, in my opinion. Keep in mind the AR. The head wound came first and she was most likely upright. Her clothing is soiled on the front. The ligature is in the back. The carpet outside the WR was stained.
 

UKGuy

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Or - maybe she could have had those same clothes on beforehand and it all could have taken place in the basement? The head bash, molestation, (or even vice versa) clean-up, pulling up of the underwear and long johns, then the ligature strangulation. Next comes the staging, etc. I just re-read the AR. Am I missing something there?

kanzz,
There was a sexual assault, the coroner said so. There was bleeding, the coroner said so.

So if JonBenet had been wearing the size-12's and long johns all along, then they should show the signs of the assault which led to bleeding.

Her original underwear and pink pajama bottoms were likely bloodstained, and this is why she was redressed in clean size-12's and clean long johns.

The AR tells you, before any pictures were published that both the size-12's and the long johns were heavily urine-soaked.

Not a lot has changed, just people's perceptions, now they see the images, its pretty obvious, to me at least, BR redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and long johns.

All these explanations for the size-12's and long johns are like the nightgown. i.e. ad hoc.

No sane parent is going to stage their daughter in male long johns and over sized underwear!

.
 

debbiegarcia36

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Unlikely, in my opinion. Keep in mind the AR. The head wound came first and she was most likely upright. Her clothing is soiled on the front. The ligature is in the back. The carpet outside the WR was stained.
It seems to me the release of urine happened at the very end -after she was strangled outside the WC and she was wearing the size 12 panties and long johns at the time. So IMO no one re-dressed her in soiled clothes after she passed. Then she was moved to the wine cellar, covered with the blanket etc.

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kanzz

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kanzz,
There was a sexual assault, the coroner said so. There was bleeding, the coroner said so.

So if JonBenet had been wearing the size-12's and long johns all along, then they should show the signs of the assault which led to bleeding.

Her original underwear and pink pajama bottoms were likely bloodstained, and this is why she was redressed in clean size-12's and clean long johns.

The AR tells you, before any pictures were published that both the size-12's and the long johns were heavily urine-soaked.

Not a lot has changed, just people's perceptions, now they see the images, its pretty obvious, to me at least, BR redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and long johns.

All these explanations for the size-12's and long johns are like the nightgown. i.e. ad hoc.

No sane parent is going to stage their daughter in male long johns and over sized underwear!

.

OK.. Yes. I'm with you now. I'd forgotten about the pink pajama bottoms in all this talk about the long johns. I totally agree that BR is the one who redressed her. I just thought there was something else in that AR I was overlooking and it was making me read and re-read! Thanks!
 

kanzz

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It seems to me the release of urine happened at the very end -after she was strangled outside the WC and she was wearing the size 12 panties and long johns at the time. So IMO no one re-dressed her in soiled clothes after she passed. Then she was moved to the wine cellar, covered with the blanket etc.

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Right. Exactly. I agree. So, If my post made it sound as though I thought otherwise, I apologize. Head wound then molestation or vice versa, then the redressing, then the ligature strangulation outside the WR. After that, the staging and undoing including the move to the WR.
 

ArianeEmory

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Longtime semi-lurker, but have never really gone down the rabbit hole on this one, as it's always seemed to me a situation of people overly obsessed with a case involving a cute little white girl (e.g., Caylee Anthony). But I've dipped my toes in enough to have some of the basics, and understand some of lingo (BDI, IDI, etc), and I do get that it's a super weird case.

I do have one question as I've noticed the flurry of activity and I see stuff that seems "new" to me being discussed--what's the primary source of the new info? People keep talking about these pictures of the underwear that are new, but where did they come from? I know there's also been the news about the sketchy DA, and some lawsuit with Burke?

If someone could give me a thumbnail sketch of the cause of the current uptick in activity, I'd appreciate it.

(This is not a setup for me to argue the validity of sources. I am definitely not qualified. I will say "BDI" is about the only plausible-seeming thing I've heard, though, as a relative outsider.)
 
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