Was Burke Involved? # 4

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DrollForeignFaction

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The recent Dateline special had a document (it's in that thread and some of the 911 threads) stating Burke told the GJ he was not downstairs or in the room for the call, which is also what he told the psychiatrist. Not downstairs, didn't leave his room. He said he pretended to be asleep when the cop shone his flashlight in the room. Yet he admitted to the grand jury that when listening to the enhanced 911 call it sounded like his voice. When I listened to the CBS enhanced tape - which is not the same as the original Aerospace tape and may for all we know be of lesser quality - I heard a child's voice and it sounded like Burke. Steve Thomas, Kolar, Beckner and Mike Kane who presented the 911 tape to the grand jury have all said they heard him on the tape. So either all the people who have heard Burke's voice on the tape are delusional, there was a second living child in the house minutes before police arrived, or Burke lied and was downstairs during the call, and then ran back upstairs (likely at his parents' command), got back in bed, and feigned sleep for officer French.


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Tortoise

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The recent Dateline special had a document (it's in that thread and some of the 911 threads) stating Burke told the GJ he was not downstairs or in the room for the call, which is also what he told the psychiatrist. Not downstairs, didn't leave his room. He said he pretended to be asleep when the cop shone his flashlight in the room. Yet he admitted to the grand jury that when listening to the enhanced 911 call it sounded like his voice. When I listened to the CBS enhanced tape - which is not the same as the original Aerospace tape and may for all we know be of lesser quality - I heard a child's voice and it sounded like Burke. Steve Thomas, Kolar, Beckner and Mike Kane who presented the 911 tape to the grand jury have all said they heard him on the tape. So either all the people who have heard Burke's voice on the tape are delusional, there was a second living child in the house minutes before police arrived, or Burke lied and was downstairs during the call, and then ran back upstairs (likely at his parents' command), got back in bed, and feigned sleep for officer French.


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How do you know he couldn't hear the call from upstairs? Or from which handset Patsy made the call?
 

DrollForeignFaction

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I believe he said in one of his childhood interviews that he was able to faintly hear the call or some of it from his room. But I don't see what bearing that has on other people hearing his voice in the background of the 911 recording. Are you suggesting he was recorded speaking from inside his bedroom on the opposite end of the house from where the call was made?
As for which handset, I'm only aware of the phone she claimed to have used and another one in the basement. But even if she used a phone other than those two I doubt it was made from Burke's room.

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kanzz

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Do you know who was Burke's counsellor/therapist and if he or she testified to the Grand Jury?
No, I don't know the name of BR's psychiatrist or if the GJ witness list is even available. If it is, I don't have it. My guess would be that he/she probably would have been called to testify, but I don't know that for a fact.
 

DrollForeignFaction

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Do we know for sure if Burke was seeing a psychiatrist BEFORE the murder? I swear I remember seeing that as well as JB having one in Kolar's book but I can't find that by searching. I was able to find Burke's psychiatrist after the murder, though.

"John Ramsey noted during his June 1998 interview with Lou Smit, that he was taking medication that had been prescribed for him by Burke’s psychiatrist, Dr. Steven Jaffee of Atlanta, Georgia. The fact that John was taking medication to help him through those difficult times didn’t seem out of the ordinary to me. I did think it unusual, however, that Burke, who reportedly had not witnessed any of the events surrounding JonBenét’s kidnapping or death, was still being treated professionally nearly a year and a half after the event.
Patsy had also made reference to Burke’s treatment during her 1998 interview with authorities, indicating that they didn’t want to him to wake up one day when he was forty, and have difficulties dealing with the repercussions of all that was going on with the events surrounding the murder investigation. Purported to have witnessed nothing related to his sister’s disappearance, or having nothing of import for a police interview, I could not help but wonder why Burke would require such extensive psychological counseling."
Kolar, Kindle edition, loc 5027


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OliviaG1996

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I wasn't aware he lied about being asleep during the 911 call. When did he say that?

On the CBS special, BR claimed PR rushed to his room screaming, "Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh," before the call to police was made, I think. PR claimed to police she never checked on BR that morning, that JR did, which is interesting. Here's more for reference regarding BR being awake.:

Source- http://www.acandyrose.com/12261996-911.htm

[URL="http://www.acandyrose.com/04032001enquirer.htm"]The National Enquirer Article - April 3, 2001


The following is only a short section of the interview given by John and Patsy Ramsey to the National Enquirer regarding their son, Burke Ramsey and whether he was sleeping or awake during the 911 call the morning of December 26, 1996. Click the link above to read the complete article

April 3, 2001
The National Enquirer - Ramseys change their story about murder night
By David Wright & Don Gentile

"John and Patsy Ramsey have changed the story they told cops about their daughter JonBenet's murder -- they now admit their son Burke was awake during that Christmas 1996 nightmare!

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police."[/URL]
 

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I believe he said in one of his childhood interviews that he was able to faintly hear the call or some of it from his room. But I don't see what bearing that has on other people hearing his voice in the background of the 911 recording. Are you suggesting he was recorded speaking from inside his bedroom on the opposite end of the house from where the call was made?
As for which handset, I'm only aware of the phone she claimed to have used and another one in the basement. But even if she used a phone other than those two I doubt it was made from Burke's room.

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It doesn't have a bearing on whether his voice can be heard on the tape. I was asking when he lied about being asleep during the 911 call because you said he had "pretended to be asleep for the police". I think he's always admitted being awake.

I'm suggesting he could have been shouting from his room to John, because he wanted to know what they'd found. Patsy may have been on the phone in JAR's room, on the same floor, or John could have been listening in on the call in JAR's room, with his hand over the mouthpiece, with Patsy on the phone in the kitchen. I'd imagine John would want to listen, and I can also imagine him wanting Burke to be quiet and telling him 'we're not talking to you', we're on the phone.
 

kanzz

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Do we know for sure if Burke was seeing a psychiatrist BEFORE the murder? I swear I remember seeing that as well as JB having one in Kolar's book but I can't find that by searching. I was able to find Burke's psychiatrist after the murder, though.

"John Ramsey noted during his June 1998 interview with Lou Smit, that he was taking medication that had been prescribed for him by Burke’s psychiatrist, Dr. Steven Jaffee of Atlanta, Georgia. The fact that John was taking medication to help him through those difficult times didn’t seem out of the ordinary to me. I did think it unusual, however, that Burke, who reportedly had not witnessed any of the events surrounding JonBenét’s kidnapping or death, was still being treated professionally nearly a year and a half after the event.
Patsy had also made reference to Burke’s treatment during her 1998 interview with authorities, indicating that they didn’t want to him to wake up one day when he was forty, and have difficulties dealing with the repercussions of all that was going on with the events surrounding the murder investigation. Purported to have witnessed nothing related to his sister’s disappearance, or having nothing of import for a police interview, I could not help but wonder why Burke would require such extensive psychological counseling."
Kolar, Kindle edition, loc 5027


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Thought I'd read it in FF, too. I searched PMPT but couldn't find anything there either.
 

Tortoise

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No, I don't know the name of BR's psychiatrist or if the GJ witness list is even available. If it is, I don't have it. My guess would be that he/she probably would have been called to testify, but I don't know that for a fact.

I could swear I've seen mention that a witness list is available, but I've no idea where I saw that now.
 

UKGuy

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I'm not necessarily BDI but if that is the case, I agree mostly with otg. I don't see much of an issue with Burke being sent to school. He was 9, almost 10 at the time and his parents gave him the easiest alibi: I was asleep, I didn't hear anything, I don't know anything. They completely took him out of the equation that morning so he wouldn't have to remember a complicated lie. Immediately sending him out of the house was risky (but imo better than keeping him on the scene) but once the police and psych interviews were over, all he had to do was not deviate from the story and not confess. Kids can keep secrets very well if necessary. As for being a danger to other kids at school, who knows. If BDI, clearly it wasn't enough of a concern to his parents that it kept him out of school and they were in a better position to judge than we are.

The thing for me is, all three of them are lying therefore all three of them are implicated. Burke's voice can be heard on the tape. Even Burke admitted that he heard what sounded like his voice on the tape to the grand jury, though he denied actually being in the room. That doesn't add up. He denied having anything to do with the pineapple bowl with his fingerprints on it. Burke has been removed from the timeline that night and morning for a reason, either because he did it or he knows too much. But he's been part of the deception since minute one when he pretended to be asleep for the police despite being downstairs when the 911 call was made minutes before.

Maybe a good question would be, if he has nothing to do with it and no knowledge of the crime would his parents put him in the position of having to lie about being awake that morning? Maybe they would. I'm leaning towards wouldn't, though.


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DrollForeignFaction,

The case is definitely BDI. BR is colluding with his parents to present a picture of not being present.

Whereas we know from the forensic evidence that parents have elected to be present.

BR is going to school so to present an I'm not involved image.

The big Q is: was the school informed that BR might represent an ongoing risk to other pupils?

Unless JR and PR have put their hands up and told Hunter how it was, and I doubt this. I reckon the parents played it in the manner so that their money simply purchased privilege, i.e. no hard questions asked!

Although I do not buy Spitz's CBS Pineapple theory, I do think his general outline is credible.

I still allow for the possibility of PDI, but after finding out Patsy is claiming to have deliberately went to JonBenet's bathroom drawer and selected a pair of Burke's long johns, and redressed her in these on Christmas night. I quickly downgraded PDI.

I realized Patsy was covering for BR on both the size-12's and long johns. What were BR's long johns doing in JonBenet's bathroom drawer anyway?

This explains Patsy's version of events on Christmas night: I could not find her pajama bottoms, and the size-12's: I put them into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her to use.

Although the case might be JDI or PDI the GJ does not think so and I doubt either parent would stage a crime-scene where JonBenet is dressed in over sized underwear or male long johns.


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kanzz

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It doesn't have a bearing on whether his voice can be heard on the tape. I was asking when he lied about being asleep during the 911 call because you said he had "pretended to be asleep for the police". I think he's always admitted being awake.

I'm suggesting he could have been shouting from his room to John, because he wanted to know what they'd found. Patsy may have been on the phone in JAR's room, on the same floor, or John could have been listening in on the call in JAR's room, with his hand over the mouthpiece, with Patsy on the phone in the kitchen. I'd imagine John would want to listen, and I can also imagine him wanting Burke to be quiet and telling him 'we're not talking to you', we're on the phone.

If you listen to the recording, you can tell the voices are in the background of the same room, they are all three speaking, and BR isn't shouting.
The 911 dispatcher would have known if there was more than one receiver off the hook.
Have you not heard this enhanced 911 call yet?
 

OliviaG1996

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I could swear I've seen mention that a witness list is available, but I've no idea where I saw that now.

A list is available on page 189 of Kolar's book, but it is not a complete list, unfortunately.:

Some of the witnesses who were reported to have testified before the grand jury up to that point in time were listed as follows:

Mike Archuleta, Ramsey pilot
Linda Arndt, BPD detective
Dr. Francesco Beuf, JonBenet’s pediatrician
Debbie Chaves, CBI forensics expert
John Douglas, retired FBI profiler
Michael Everett, BPD CSI
John and Barbara Fernie, friends of Ramsey family,
Rick French, BPD officer first on scene
Ron Gosage, BPD detective
Pam Griffin, Ramsey family friend and beauty pageant seamstress
Jan Harmer, BPD detective
George Herrera, CBI fingerprint expert
Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, Ramsey housekeeper and accused suspect
Reverend Rol Hoverstock, Ramsey pastor
Larry Mason, BPD detective sergeant
Dr. John Meyer, Boulder County Coroner
Fred Patterson, BPD detective
Carol Piirto, JonBenet’s 3rd grade teacher
Merv Pugh, husband of Ramsey housekeeper Linda Hoffmann-Pugh
Burke Ramsey, older brother of JonBenet
Lou Smit, Boulder DA investigator
Tom Trujillo, BPD detective
Chet Ubowski, CBI handwriting analyst
Barry Weiss, BPD CSI
Fleet and Priscilla White, Ramsey family friends
Tom Wickman, BPD detective sergeant
 

TinaD

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DrollForeignFaction,

The case is definitely BDI. BR is colluding with his parents to present a picture of not being present.

Whereas we know from the forensic evidence that parents have elected to be present.

BR is going to school so to present an I'm not involved image.

The big Q is: was the school informed that BR might represent an ongoing risk to other pupils?

Unless JR and PR have put their hands up and told Hunter how it was, and I doubt this. I reckon the parents played it in the manner so that their money simply purchased privilege, i.e. no hard questions asked!

Although I do not buy Spitz's CBS Pineapple theory, I do think his general outline is credible.

I still allow for the possibility of PDI, but after finding out Patsy is claiming to have deliberately went to JonBenet's bathroom drawer and selected a pair of Burke's long johns, and redressed her in these on Christmas night. I quickly downgraded PDI.

I realized Patsy was covering for BR on both the size-12's and long johns. What were BR's long johns doing in JonBenet's bathroom drawer anyway?

This explains Patsy's version of events on Christmas night: I could not find her pajama bottoms, and the size-12's: I put them into JonBenet's underwear drawer for her to use.

Although the case might be JDI or PDI the GJ does not think so and I doubt either parent would stage a crime-scene where JonBenet is dressed in over sized underwear or male long johns.


.

The problem that I see with assuming that Burke did the redressing, is that fibres from the shirt that John was wearing that night were found in JB's genital region. So, to me, either he was involved in the redressing, or he was involved in doing something to JB before she died. :(
 

Tortoise

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If you listen to the recording, you can tell the voices are in the background of the same room, they are all three speaking, and BR isn't shouting.
The 911 dispatcher would have known if there was more than one receiver off the hook.
Have you not heard this enhanced 911 call yet?

Yes I've heard it. You can't tell they're in the same room, I would argue that the background voices are so unclear and requiring of enhancement that they are not close by, and I disagree that the dispatcher would have known how many receivers were off the hook. It could explain why the call didn't disconnect when Patsy put the phone back, because she was on a wall phone and if you don't put the phone back in the cradle properly on a wall phone it would probably drop and hang down on its wire.
 

kanzz

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The problem that I see with assuming that Burke did the redressing, is that fibres from the shirt that John was wearing that night were found in JB's genital region. So, to me, either he was involved in the redressing, or he was involved in doing something to JB before she died. :(
I keep wondering if those fibers could have been from secondary transfer - from BR having spent time with JR earlier that night. Israeli wool, which I think would shed fairly readily. jmo
 

DrollForeignFaction

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It doesn't have a bearing on whether his voice can be heard on the tape. I was asking when he lied about being asleep during the 911 call because you said he had "pretended to be asleep for the police". I think he's always admitted being awake.

I'm suggesting he could have been shouting from his room to John, because he wanted to know what they'd found. Patsy may have been on the phone in JAR's room, on the same floor, or John could have been listening in on the call in JAR's room, with his hand over the mouthpiece, with Patsy on the phone in the kitchen. I'd imagine John would want to listen, and I can also imagine him wanting Burke to be quiet and telling him 'we're not talking to you', we're on the phone.

It's possible the scenario you described happened but the point is that Burke specifically denied being in the vicinity of the call. He denied it was his voice on the tape even after admitting it sounded like his voice on the tape. He told the interviewer that he did not leave his room that morning to investigate what was going on and he did not interact with his parents at any point until JR and FW came to get him around 7. He does not admit to any of the things you outlined in your scenario, which means if you are right, he's still lying for his parents.

Yes he admitted he was awake the whole time (eventually) but he claims he let his mom and/or dad search the room without notifying them he was awake. He also says he saw the policeman shining his flashlight around the room and he pretended to be asleep, and hence, he deceived the police that morning. If he was up interacting with his parents before the police got there and they told him to go to bed, pretend you're asleep, they are all lying. His parents told police he slept through everything and that morning he aided them in pulling off that lie.


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TinaD

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I keep wondering if those fibers could have been from secondary transfer - from BR having spent time with JR earlier that night. Israeli wool, which I think would shed fairly readily. jmo

True, it could be transfer. Unlucky to just be transferred into that particular area and nowhere else on her body though. If it is from BR, why weren't similar fibres found elsewhere?
 
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