Was Burke Involved? # 4

[ThinkHard]

If Burke abused and murdered JBR, using a blunt object, 2 hrs playtime and then the garrote, than you're definately looking at someone with a sadistic personality.
I don't see how you could attribute such (psychotic) acts to ASPD (without SPD) traits or those with no Axis II disorders.

Josh Buggar was 14/15 years old and 'just' abused his vicitims, which leaves over a 100 possible ASPD traits and Axis I disorders. It's not a good comparion imho.

JBRs murder could have been an aggressive reaction to the discovery of Burkes abuse and the shame that followed. And then the events leading up to the 25th become more interesting.
But I don't believe Burke murdered his sister in some kind of premeditated plot to cover up his abuse. It doesn't make sense to explore the least likeliest explanations first.

The parents covered it up. Apparantly not afraid they could be the focus of Burke's anger. They must have believed in his chances to overcome his ultra rare personality disorder.
To me, the behavior of the Ramseys provide additional reasoning to explore their family history (in terms of genetic disorders and conduct), whether Burke killed JBR or not.


Sadistic individuals have poor behavioral controls, manifested by a short temper, irritability, low frustration tolerance, and a controlling nature. From an interpersonal standpoint, they are noted to be harsh, hostile, manipulative, lacking in empathy, cold-hearted, and abrasive to those they deem to be their inferiors. Their cognitive nature is considered rigid and prone to social intolerance, and they are fascinated by weapons, war, and infamous crimes or perpetrators of atrocities.

SPDs
- tend to seek psychiatric care at a younger age.
- with significantly more Axis I and II pathology.
- distinguishable from other groups on the basis of family history.

http://www.psy-journal.com/article/0165-1781(93)90077-T/abstract

Who said anything about Burke plotting the whole thing to cover his own abuse? I've never seen anyone even suggest that.

He could have plotted the whole thing for other reasons, but I seriously doubt Burke was thinking about covering for abuse.

 

[ThinkHard]

I have no problem with anyone disagreeing. I'm just trying to understand what the basis was for your dismissal of another poster's opinion. If I can point out to you why I think you're mistaken, maybe you'll reconsider or simply disagree as respectfully as you ask them to be. It's called "dialog".

ETA: Your photographic evidence was only one photo. I didn't know if you had seen the other one while she was lying on the floor with what appears to be two strands of hair pulled taught between her head and the paintbrush with no sign of the twisted hair.

I have seen all the pictures. And it seems very clear to me that the knot was tied before. So clear to me in fact, it almost seems strange that it's even a discussion.

I don't mean that as argumentative or anything, I just think it's interesting how people can look at the same info and see completely different information in it.

I guess the only way to know for sure with the knot is to see it in person, which is not possible, or to have LE finally unwrap it, which is also not possible for us.

So if some see those pictures and believe it shows the knot was tied after, that's fine. It is just not what I see when I look at those photos, to me the opposite seems very obvious. That doesn't mean I am right, but it also doesn't mean I am wrong.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[ThinkHard]

I understand your "hang up" (as you call it) over the device often (but still, incorrectly) referred to as a garrote. Now I think maybe you and I are getting somewhere, ThinkHard. Try considering (even though this is not your first thought) how the cord might have been used without the paintbrush attached. She had splinters inside her, and the broken off end of the paintbrush has never been found. The paintbrush attached to the cord served no purpose other than to possibly give more of a grip to the person pulling on it if that is how it was used.

Relax. Everyone knows it's not a real garrote, I am only referring to it as such because that is what it has been called during this entire investigation. I don't think you need to be so nit picky over what we call it.

Also she technically had microscopic cellulose inside her, which could also be from toilet paper and not neccasarily the paint brush.

 

[ThinkHard]

Ohhhhhh, don't get me started, johnjay. I can just imagine that as the WS audience is reading this, 75% of them are rolling their eyes worrying I'm going to start again. I'll just say for now that I think the paintbrush was broken and tied on the end of the cord after she was already dead from the strangulation to obscure how she was actually strangled and what the paintbrush had been used for before she died.

Exact dimensions of all the cords/ligatures are in the AR:

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed.

Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed. A single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut. The posterior knot is left intact. Extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a lenght of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length. This wooden stick is irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and apparent glistening varnish on the surface. Printed in gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word "Korea". The tail end of another word extends from beneath the loops of the cord tied around the stick and is not able to be interpreted. Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck as well as in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick. (Are you reading this, ThinkHard?) It appears to be made of a white synthetic material. Also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross.
​

Yes I have read it many time Otg, I just don't happen to agree with you on this one.

I think the stick was in place when the strangulation happened and I think it was twisted and I think that's how the hair got in it.

It seems like a far stranger thing to me that someone would feel the need to attach the paintbrush to the string after death. I mean who would think, let's step up how this looks by adding a wooden stick to the end? A garrote a tourniquet whatever you want to call it, is a rather random tool, and I just can't see something thinking of creating that as part of staging post strangulation. I just don't see it. I think it was already there.

 

[johnjay]

Ohhhhhh, don't get me started, johnjay. I can just imagine that as the WS audience is reading this, 75% of them are rolling their eyes worrying I'm going to start again. I'll just say for now that I think the paintbrush was broken and tied on the end of the cord after she was already dead from the strangulation to obscure how she was actually strangled and what the paintbrush had been used for before she died.

Exact dimensions of all the cords/ligatures are in the AR:

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed.

Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist. This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed. A single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut. The posterior knot is left intact. Extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a lenght of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length. This wooden stick is irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and apparent glistening varnish on the surface. Printed in gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word "Korea". The tail end of another word extends from beneath the loops of the cord tied around the stick and is not able to be interpreted. Blonde hair is entwined in the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck as well as in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick. (Are you reading this, ThinkHard?) It appears to be made of a white synthetic material. Also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross.
​

Thanks, that's pretty close to the dimensions that I used but I didn't have nylon cord.

Since you think this was staging, how about a link to a post where you describe how you think she was actually strangled.

 

[johnjay]

I'm not sure, I'm certainly no expert, but I think you may be misinterpreting what you read at Wikipedia. I didn't mention the type of execution device that was used even into this century in some countries. I felt that would cloud the issue. The "stick" referred to on the Wikipedia page goes on either end to allow a good grip by the assailant. They also use small rings on the ends of some that allow only a finger or thumb to do the pulling, making the device small and easy.to conceal. The "knotted" version used by Indians had the knot in the center so it would go over the larynx and put additional pressure there. That's completely unnecessary because it requires more pressure to crush the larynx than it does to shut off the blood supply to the brain (hence the need for additional force on the back of the neck). Depriving the brain of oxygenated blood causes unconsciousness in ten to fifteen seconds, and death within five minutes (typically).

I gather from my google searches that garrotes can take on various forms. e.g.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/garrote

garrote

noun A weaponised device used for assassination and as a device for capital punishment in the Iberian peninsula (until being abolished in the late 1970s). Garrotes consist of a choking part (e.g., cord, rope, band, wire, etc.), which is looped around the victim’s neck, and a twisting part, which is tightened until the victim expires. First used by the Romans to dispatch enemies of state, the Spanish and Portuguese used the garrote in the Middle Ages and in the colonisation of the New World.

And from Steve Thomas's book:

Blond hair was snared in the knot, and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garrote.

 

[ukrberserker23]

I have a thought on this rope used as a garotte. My father rigged up something almost identical to wrap around his fold up Christmas tree. I think he used a clove hitch on the handle. He put a fixed loop at the other end. Then he makes a lariat out of it. Loop around the tree branches to cinch them down. Only way it will fit back in the box. This is why I asked the other day if anyone knew if Ramsey's used artificial tree that year.

 

[johnjay]

YES (to the bolded part)!

The problem I have with using the strangulation device by grabbing the handle and pushing on her back is that when used that way the tension in he cord is not only compressing the neck put all that tension is also pulling the neck back. That's seems like a lot of force on a young child's neck. Wouldn't that do other damage too- maybe break her neck?

But when just pulled by both ends of the rope - standard movie garroting, the pull tensions balance each other and there is just the compression of the neck. Same thing with the twisting type of device. Of course, if this was just staging and the strangulation happened some other way, then ...

 

[johnjay]

Will all due respect, Wikipedia (which I often read) is not vetted by experts so you may get incorrect information from them. In a medical/legal sense, a ligature device was used on JonBenet. Even the autopsy says so.

Off my soapbox. :tantrum:

Google "garrote", lots of references give it a more general definition of a strangulation device.

 

[johnjay]

Actually, a garrote in the true sense has a handle on each end. The cord is slipped over the head from behind and the handles are crossed behind the neck. I'm at a loss to explain how twisting this ligature would tighten it.

I had no trouble getting the twisting action to work on my mock up of this device. Twist the extra chord around the neck over the first chord, wrap around the handle and twist. Incredible compression force with very little torque on the handle. I'm not saying this is what was done - just that it could be made to work this way- although you might get two cord marks, at least in some places.

The problem I have with the handle just being pulled is that method creates a lot of pulling force on the neck besides the compression force. And it feels like the most violent of the three very violent techniques. Maybe with a quick yank- like pulling a lawn mower ... I wish CBS would have covered this but it would have been gruesome TV.

The cord looks like it's pulled very tight. The standard movie garroting technique would work pretty well, I imagine. but if you did it with bare rope on bare hands I think you would bruise your hands. I guess you could slip the noose part over something to hold it in place and just pull on the handle - a one sided movie like garrote - then stage - but I don't think that was done.

Could normal parents like John and Patsy do that kind of staging? That's a frightening thought. After playing with a mock-up of the device I can see why the intruder theory is popular. Just holding the mock up was very unsettling.

 

[mrseeker]

Wasn't there an early story that a book found in PR bedroom referenced a crime with a garrote? I want to say it was mindhunters. I read that book years ago but I don't have an independent memory of a garrote. I checked and the book came out in 1995 and I am almost certain I read it before this crime. If anyone has this book do you see a reference anywhere to a garrotte?

 

[madeleine]

any thoughts?

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

Det. Arndt stated to Your Affiant that she was present and observed a visual examination by Dr. Meyer of the shirt worn by the child. She observed and Dr. Meyer preserved dark fibers and dark hair found on the outside of the shirt

Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

In the presence of Det. Arndt, Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department, used a black florescent light the view the body including the pubic area of the victim in an attempt to observe the possible presence of semen or seminal fluid. (Your Affiant knows from previous experience and training that substances such as semen or seminal fluid, not visible to the unaided eye, may become visible when viewed under a black florescent light). Det. Arndt stated that she observed florescent areas of the upper inner and outer left thigh, as well as the upper and inner right thigh. Det. Arndt stated that her observations of the result of the black florescent light observation is consistent with the presence of semen or seminal fluid.

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer swab these florescent areas. Dr. Meyer was also observed by Det. Arndt to obtain vaginal, oral and anal swabs from the child's body. (According to examination conducted at the Colorado Bureau of Investigations, no semen was located on the body, panties, or clothing of JonBenet Ramsey).

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.
------------------

we later learned that it wasn/t semen but blood....but it must have been a lot of it since both left and right inner and upper thighs were wiped off
wth happened there

 

[BOESP]

Google "garrote", lots of references give it a more general definition of a strangulation device.

"If you read it on the Internet it must be true" is a standard joke used in this day and time to indicate the Internet is not always factual. The autopsy says "ligature."

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Heymom]

Wasn't there an early story that a book found in PR bedroom referenced a crime with a garrote? I want to say it was mindhunters. I read that book years ago but I don't have an independent memory of a garrote. I checked and the book came out in 1995 and I am almost certain I read it before this crime. If anyone has this book do you see a reference anywhere to a garrotte?

Was it Lou Smit that started using that word to describe the ligature? It sure stuck - the media picked it up immediately and spread it relentlessly. It was "proof" that the killer was experienced and savage, nothing that could have been done by a family member, especially not one 9.11 years old.

 

[mrseeker]

Was it Lou Smit that started using that word to describe the ligature? It sure stuck - the media picked it up immediately and spread it relentlessly. It was "proof" that the killer was experienced and savage, nothing that could have been done by a family member, especially not one 9.11 years old.

Googling this, there are references to a local radio personality alleging Douglas's book was found in the house. The posters said it was not true. So i guess I heard it back then and never heard it later was proven false.

 

[mrseeker]

I have yet to hear of another case of a child killed by a parent, hidden in the house, and the police called. I am not all knowing, especially sober, so maybe there are cases. There are plenty of examples of parents claiming children were snatched in the night, some were true kidnappings, some were children intentionally or accidentally murdered by a parent, or adult in the home. In all those cases the children have been taken somewhere, some never to be found. This is not evidence but it is statistics and logic. That is why I hold on to the thought, the stager at least, or the killer was not done. She was stopped when JR made her call the police. Makes no sense to call the cops when the body is just feet away in the middle of a small room. If it had been placed in a chest, or under a false floor or crawl space, then maybe it would be a little more logical but not where it was. So the only question i have is, who gave the death blow and was the garroting staging or was it some strange sexual assault. I think it was staging. You could assume BR hit his sister and then played out some strange act as she died....like torturing a wounded animal...I do not think a 9 year old would be this advanced in sexual perversion at this point. Where would he have gotten this idea? And this amount of deviant behavior at 9 would make me think he should be a serial killer by now. I do think PR staged this, to protect herself or BR. I think she was unclear in the head and used her imagination and memories of movies and books to stage the perfect crime...but JR made her call the police..plan A foiled..on to plan B.

 

[Djoop]

Who said anything about Burke plotting the whole thing to cover his own abuse? I've never seen anyone even suggest that.

He could have plotted the whole thing for other reasons, but I seriously doubt Burke was thinking about covering for abuse.

Err.. I know I applied deductive reasoning here, but shamefully have to admit I can't reproduce it.

With every theory, I just try to establish a feasible motive and narrative. There were quite a few posters who considered the possbility that Burke used the garrote. I question that, but tried to explore possible narratives.

Playing kitty. I kind of agreed with the poster who deemed that unlikely. This was not an accident imho.
As an act of sexual aggression (a possibility you suggested), a lust murder. I've tried to explain why that's extremely unlikely given Burke's age, the circumstances he found himself in and the lack of collaborating stories.
As an act of aggression. Most feasible imho, and you could explore all kinds of disorders and circumstances. It could be premeditated in the sense that he thought about killing JBR before and acted on it in an act of rage.

I still see the garrote as a spur of the moment thing, part of the staging that must have been done by Patsy, John or both.

 

[ThinkHard]

Err.. I know I applied deductive reasoning here, but shamefully have to admit I can't reproduce it.

With every theory, I just try to establish a feasible motive and narrative. There were quite a few posters who considered the possbility that Burke used the garrote. I question that, but tried to explore possible narratives.

Playing kitty. I kind of agreed with the poster who deemed that unlikely. This was not an accident imho.
As an act of sexual aggression (a possibility you suggested), a lust murder. I've tried to explain why that's extremely unlikely given Burke's age, the circumstances he found himself in and the lack of collaborating stories.
As an act of aggression. Most feasible imho, and you could explore all kinds of disorders and circumstances. It could be premeditated in the sense that he thought about killing JBR before and acted on it in an act of rage.

I still see the garrote as a spur of the moment thing, part of the staging that must have been done by Patsy, John or both.

Sexual aggression in children has ZERO to do with lust. They are not thinking about those sexual acts the way an adult would. And since you think of it by that definition I can understand why you don't follow that theory. But i think if you understood sexual aggressive behavior in children better, and understood it is more about control and not about sexual desires that line if logic would make a lot more sense to you.

You still never answered my question by the way....who ever said anything about Burke staging the murder to cover up sexual abuse?

I've not see anyone even suggest this, not once. And I'm not sure I am following exactmy how you got there either. I don't see a 9 year old boy staging this as hiding sexual abuse as his motive.

His motive, in my opinion, is far more likely to be that he was a very messed up little boy, with extreme anger toward his sister, who he saw as the catalyst for his life getting all icky. After she was born, is when he got less attention, his mom was ill, they moved.....he likely associated her arrival with everything changing, and in his brain thought if she was just gone, everything would get back to normal. And I believe he acted out on his sister as a way to excerpt power and control over her.

 

[DakotaMayi]

His motive, in my opinion, is far more likely to be that he was a very messed up little boy, with extreme anger toward his sister, who he saw as the catalyst for his life getting all icky. After she was born, is when he got less attention, his mom was ill, they moved.....he likely associated her arrival with everything changing, and in his brain thought if she was just gone, everything would get back to normal. And I believe he acted out on his sister as a way to excerpt power and control over her.

I agree with you. When watching his interview where he drew the picture of his family minus Jonbenet he just came across so willing and happy to draw the picture, shouting out 'I've got one!.' It appeared as though with JB gone all the problems he thinks she bought along were gone too.

 

[ConcernedinDC]

I have a thought on this rope used as a garotte. My father rigged up something almost identical to wrap around his fold up Christmas tree. I think he used a clove hitch on the handle. He put a fixed loop at the other end. Then he makes a lariat out of it. Loop around the tree branches to cinch them down. Only way it will fit back in the box. This is why I asked the other day if anyone knew if Ramsey's used artificial tree that year.

Patsy said they stored an artificial tree/trees down there so yes.