Was Burke Involved? # 4

[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
Just as BR talking during the 911, with JR replying directly links JR to the staging along with BR and PR. What Susan Stine overheard was not something BR should know about at all!

Two days after her death, means he either knew from direct experience, i.e he was present, or he overheard others, which blows the the theory that parents went to all the bother of macabre staging to insulate BR from knowing what took place, yet two days later, before any autopsy report has been released and BR is describing how JonBenet was strangled, so that theory never worked did it?

Thats part of the reason why I have always thought BR initially manually strangled JonBenet, i.e. he knew about it two days later. Consider his later interviews, where he goes on to describe how someone used blunt force to whack JonBenet on the head. So he appears to know exactly how JonBenet was killed, yet the blunt force was unknown until the AR was released.

This all simply circumstantial evidence but when you add it to everything else it looks bad for BR!

.

Exactly!
The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming honestly. He knew way to much about her manner of death considering his parents said they NEVER discussed it with him and was completely unaware of him even being awake that morning until he was testifying in front of the GJ 2 1/2 years later....
A lot stinks about this case.

 

[icedtea4me]

Y

When was the photo on bf's bed taken? A lot has been made of PR's sode not appearing to be slept in. This bed looks like it was made by the maid.

I recall reading (possibly in one of John's interviews) that the bed Burke slept in was made by Fleet White.

 

[flourish]

Please, do tell step-by-step how you think Burke got his feces on JonBenet's pieces of candy in the candy box.

I'm not the person you asked. I wasn't there so I can't say how or for sure he DID do that. I'm also not sure why there is confusion about how one could possibly transport feces. But, genuine curiosity or rhetorical argumentative question, here's some ideas:

He defecated into his hand while he was present in JB's room then smeared the fecal matter onto the box.

He defecated into the toilet then used his hand to remove it from the toilet and then walked from whichever toilet into her room and smeared it onto the box.

He defecated in his pants then used his hands, pants, or underwear to smear it on the box.

He used a paper towel or toilet paper to do any of the above actions.

Those are just a few ways in which he could have accomplished that incredible feat! Fecal smearing is so easy even babies can do it!

 

[Heymom]

PositiveLight,
Just as BR talking during the 911, with JR replying directly links JR to the staging along with BR and PR. What Susan Stine overheard was not something BR should know about at all!

Two days after her death, means he either knew from direct experience, i.e he was present, or he overheard others, which blows the the theory that parents went to all the bother of macabre staging to insulate BR from knowing what took place, yet two days later, before any autopsy report has been released and BR is describing how JonBenet was strangled, so that theory never worked did it?

Thats part of the reason why I have always thought BR initially manually strangled JonBenet, i.e. he knew about it two days later. Consider his later interviews, where he goes on to describe how someone used blunt force to whack JonBenet on the head. So he appears to know exactly how JonBenet was killed, yet the blunt force was unknown until the AR was released.

This all simply circumstantial evidence but when you add it to everything else it looks bad for BR!

.

There was no manual strangulation. You can't strangle a person without doing damage to their neck and the ME found no such damage. Whatever the reason for talking about the type of strangulation (by BR), the autopsy results do not support manual strangulation.

 

[Heymom]

Burk seemed to have ADHD or autism in that childhood interview video. His social awkwardness and lack of emotion is not necessarily a sign of guilt. Many sociopaths have superficial charm. He doesn't have it in my opinion.

The CBS show lost some of its credit when they quoted Aerospace Corp's leaked 911 call transcript word by word and presented it as a new finding by the experts on their show. I, with many other viewers can't hear Burk as the transcripts of the extremely unclear 911 call dictated.

Dr Wu's analysis of the touch DNA was very powerful. But the show failed to mention the DNA found on the crotch of JBR's underwear is not a touch DNA. It has enough markers to be entered into the national DNA database. It also matched the touch DNA inside and outside the waist band of JBR's tights, and is consistent with the DNA found under JBR's finger nail. The DNA belonged to a Caucasian male, not an Asian factory worker.

The Ramseys do have a lot of things to be suspected, like the ransome note. But I personally don't think Burk stands out more than anyone else. Lin Wood probably will get CBS to settle the lawsuit, as he did with Star and a few other media outlets. He indicated the reason a lawsuit was not filed against CBS yet was that California requires extra time for parties to respond while Michigan (where Dr S is based) doesn't have this requirement. That's probably why some of the podcasts were removed.

I assume you meant Dr. Henry Lee. There was no Dr. Wu on the CBS show. And you have been misinformed on the DNA found on JonBenet's clothing and body. This case will never be solved by DNA.

 

[PositiveLight]

Please, do tell step-by-step how you think Burke got his feces on JonBenet's pieces of candy in the candy box.

Seriously.:facepalm:
What is your fascination to how feces is smeared. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. This is the second time I've seen you ask this question. As Flourish said, even a baby can do it. I do not think it requires a step by step description. :notgood:

 

[PositiveLight]

Quoted from a candy rose http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-crime-photos.htm I have one more on this one, Tom. There is a stain here on the carpet. Do you know what was spilled there or what that is? Do you remember a stain on the carpet in that area? PATSY RAMSEY: No. I remember I spilled red (INAUDIBLE) there one time and that was (INAUDIBLE). (Whispering into photographs.) No. - (0253-02)
Does anyone know what stain they are referring to? Apparently it's red? I can't see the stain. Can someone who knows where its located circle it possibly for me?

 

[questfortrue]

PositiveLight,
Just as BR talking during the 911, with JR replying directly links JR to the staging along with BR and PR. What Susan Stine overheard was not something BR should know about at all!

Two days after her death, means he either knew from direct experience, i.e he was present, or he overheard others, which blows the the theory that parents went to all the bother of macabre staging to insulate BR from knowing what took place, yet two days later, before any autopsy report has been released and BR is describing how JonBenet was strangled, so that theory never worked did it?

Thats part of the reason why I have always thought BR initially manually strangled JonBenet, i.e. he knew about it two days later. Consider his later interviews, where he goes on to describe how someone used blunt force to whack JonBenet on the head. So he appears to know exactly how JonBenet was killed, yet the blunt force was unknown until the AR was released.

This all simply circumstantial evidence but when you add it to everything else it looks bad for BR!

.

Yes, adding everything up does look bad for BR. But there is some information in PMPT which provides some clarification about BR and DS and the discussion they had.

DS and BR learned about the strangulation at a morning seminar, I believe.

The electronic media had carried the story the evening of the 27th, which included that JB had been strangled. Early in the case, Dec. 27, the principal at High Peaks felt that because of the fears of the children and hysteria of the parents, it would be good to have a meeting to talk about the death of JB. Some parents and older kids did know about her strangulation from TV reports. The principal arranged for a therapist(s) to make a presentation to the kids and discuss the facts of the case which were known. It was held on the morning of the 28th. In FF Kolar mentions the fact of strangulation was released in the newspapers on Dec. 28. I suspect this strangulation fact was given to the kids and parents that morning and discussed by DS and BR that afternoon.

The school psychologist told us he would tell the kids the facts that were known, but he assured us he wouldn’t go near the subject of whether JonBenét was sexually assaulted. . . .On Saturday morning, December 28, seventy parents and children showed up at High Peaks Elementary School. The administrator had arranged for therapists to come in to talk to the kids and their parents. PMPT

Then the strangulation puzzle and BR’s knowledge are further studied by Kolar and he flags this as something which is not understood.

Kolar, FF: As I reviewed the video time and again, I found it noteworthy that Burke never once mentioned the fact that he knew that JonBenét had been strangled during this conversation with Dr. Bernhard. As noted, Burke’s interview with Dr. Bernhard took place a little more than a week and a half after JonBenét’s murder on January 8, 1997. The fact that JonBenét had been strangled was common knowledge in Boulder by that juncture. . . Why would Burke tell Dr. Bernhard that he knew what had happened to JonBenét and not mention her strangulation? He clearly was aware that strangulation had been involved due to the conversations he was overheard having with Doug Stine not more than two days after the murder of his sister.

 

[UKGuy]

There was no manual strangulation. You can't strangle a person without doing damage to their neck and the ME found no such damage. Whatever the reason for talking about the type of strangulation (by BR), the autopsy results do not support manual strangulation.

Heymom,
BBM: OK, but I can interpret the evidence however I see fit.

If I want to think JonBenet was both manually strangled and sexually assaulted and that her later ligature asphyxiation was staging to mask the original manual strangulation and the use of either the paintbrush or a finger to internally assault JonBenet again masking her original sexual assult, was in essence what took place, neglecting the blunt force to her head which might have been a first attempt at killing JonBenet, then I can since the AR states the COD to be asphyxia and brain injury both causing oxygen depletion.

It does not state what never happened, e.g. no manual strangulation. Ive been over all this before and its something that could have happened, it just depends on what your favorite theory happens to be.

.

 

[Heymom]

Patsy Ramsey: "...Oh God."

(Notations in italics by Don Gentile and David Wright from 'The files of the National Enquirer: "It was the first time Patsy had seen the photo. She broke down in tears down at this point. After she regained her composure, the questioning continued. The photo John Ramsey had taken of the wet bar area, also showed a table near it. On it were two white lined legal pads. One of them had been used to write the ransom note. It was the same pad that contained Patsy's doodles, other writings and the so-called practice ransom note."

Tom Haney: "Like I say, this was on your roll of film and it's not exactly the same photograph that was taken by the police."

This was photo #18, and I sure wish we could find out what *exactly* that photo was....She had a reaction to it and her emotion needed a 10 minute break as she started crying. That would have been the time to press the issue but I'm sure Lin Wood stepped in to protect her.

 

[PositiveLight]

Yes, adding everything up does look bad for BR. But there is some information in PMPT which provides some clarification about BR and DS and the discussion they had.

DS and BR learned about the strangulation at a morning seminar, I believe.

The electronic media had carried the story the evening of the 27th, which included that JB had been strangled. Early in the case, Dec. 27, the principal at High Peaks felt that because of the fears of the children and hysteria of the parents, it would be good to have a meeting to talk about the death of JB. Some parents and older kids did know about her strangulation from TV reports. The principal arranged for a therapist(s) to make a presentation to the kids and discuss the facts of the case which were known. It was held on the morning of the 28th. In FF Kolar mentions the fact of strangulation was released in the newspapers on Dec. 28. I suspect this strangulation fact was given to the kids and parents that morning and discussed by DS and BR that afternoon.

The school psychologist told us he would tell the kids the facts that were known, but he assured us he wouldn’t go near the subject of whether JonBenét was sexually assaulted. . . .On Saturday morning, December 28, seventy parents and children showed up at High Peaks Elementary School. The administrator had arranged for therapists to come in to talk to the kids and their parents. PMPT

Then the strangulation puzzle and BR’s knowledge are further studied by Kolar and he flags this as something which is not understood.

Kolar, FF: As I reviewed the video time and again, I found it noteworthy that Burke never once mentioned the fact that he knew that JonBenét had been strangled during this conversation with Dr. Bernhard. As noted, Burke’s interview with Dr. Bernhard took place a little more than a week and a half after JonBenét’s murder on January 8, 1997. The fact that JonBenét had been strangled was common knowledge in Boulder by that juncture. . . Why would Burke tell Dr. Bernhard that he knew what had happened to JonBenét and not mention her strangulation? He clearly was aware that strangulation had been involved due to the conversations he was overheard having with Doug Stine not more than two days after the murder of his sister.

Woah.
Did BR attend the seminar? Or did DS? I can't believe they even discussed the way she was killed to the school honestly. (This is new info for me!) I mean I would understand if they had like a small vigil for her that Saturday with grief counselors attending. But I don't think it was the school's place to discuss that info. Especially with the kids. When was it officially announced that she was strangled and how? Wow today is a huge learning curve for me in this case. :scared:

 

[HarmonyE.]

That's a fair point, FairM1. Jim Clemente and Laura Richards asked a Boulder attorney that, and she didn't think so. She hinted strongly that it would have to be Burke they were covering for, but I'm not sold. I still think it could be exactly as you say.

The reason the attorney dismissed the idea that the GJ couldn't decide which parent was the murderer is because they did not recommend either be charged with murder.

If the grand jury really couldn't puzzle out which one did the actual killing, it's far more likely they would have recommended murder charges for both because at a minimum one was likely covering for the other, and possibly an accessory before the fact. Let the actual trial sort that out. But naming neither as the murderer is a pretty clear indicator that they didn't think either one was. This leaves only one person.

 

[PositiveLight]

This was photo #18, and I sure wish we could find out what *exactly* that photo was....She had a reaction to it and her emotion needed a 10 minute break as she started crying. That would have been the time to press the issue but I'm sure Lin Wood stepped in to protect her.

Completely agree!
Anyone else being questioned in a case like this the detectives would have beared down on the person being questioned. Whatever is in that photo disturbed her greatly. I hate how they didn't follow through properly with questioning them. To this day they remain handled with kid gloves if you ask me. :notgood:

O/T but I'm going to miss chatting with everyone while the site gets an upgrade! :winkkiss: I hope everyone has a good night!

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Well this is new info for me actually. This quote.
The one that Stine recalled to Kaempfer.
I always understood it that the parent who overheard the convo questioned Burke again about it and he wouldn't say anything else or repeat it. I could have been wrong and willing to admit it.
It's odd that Stine said this considering later her family and the Ramsey's became so super close replacing the White's basically in the Ramsey's life.
Okay a few questions regarding this. Hopefully you can answer them for me! lol
So Doug and Burke were overheard by Stine correct? And she told Kaempfer about it? Was Anthony, Kaempfer's son, also in the room when the boys were discussing it?
Also, considering the fact that JR and PR both stated they never discussed the case with Burke and what happened to JonBenet except for the fact she was in heaven... and he was at another home when her body was discovered..... and I'm sure the ME hadn't released the AR yet.... how did Burke have knowledge of her manner of death?
Anthony's description is very interesting I agree!!!
Now we CAN theorize that Burke maybe overheard or secretly listened to adults discussing how her body was found. But if he did this then it would be just as easy to say he was eavesdropping during the morning of the kidnapping too. That would be normal kid behavior being nosy and curious. Yet they adamantly deny he was doing any such thing. That he was 'asleep' in his bed the whole time. Even a kid (Anthony) picked up on the fact that Burke knew more than he should. This also tells me that his parents maybe THOUGHT they had coached him enough not to mention anything that occurred that night and morning and to say he was asleep through it all, but Burke couldn't help himself in telling others. I bet money if you asked his friends that were around him during that time, now what they observed and heard from him, they would tell you he was bragging about it in a way. This is what usually gets criminals caught. They HAVE to tell people what they did. They can't fight the urge. I'd be interested to hear what his friends back then have to say about it now. THOSE would be interesting interviews.
Thank you so much for the quote!!! Learning more every single day! :tyou:

You're welcome, glad I could help!

About your questions:
1. I don't have any info besides what I posted but nothing to indicate Anthony was with them at the time. I would love to read the original police report Kolar got that from to get more context.

2. I agree it would be very interesting to have his old playmates interviewed, I wonder if any of them were contacted by the task force in 2010 or CBS more recently. As to Burke knowing about the strangulation, I had the same thought. If he didn't hear it from his parents, then where? The police didn't want to release info about the mode of death in the early reports and this was only 2 days after anyone knew she was strangled. Hinky.

However, here's a theory:
A) the first report in the Daily Camera on the 27th quoted Mason saying she was not shot or stabbed but no further info.
B) but on the 28th the DC refers to her as having been strangled, which is the first media mention of that fact I'm aware of - but who knows, it could have leaked even earlier on live news.
C) that convo happened after a schoolwide counseling session on the 28th. I doubt Burke attended but DS probably did since Kolar thought it was relevant to the context. If that info was in the morning paper (not sure that it was) it's possible classmates would have gleaned that info from their parents in some way, discussed it at school, and then DS relayed the info to Burke. It's impossible to know for sure.

Finally, yeah, it is curious that Patsy's Pitbull shared her concerns about that exchange with someone else. This was before the Ramseys were living with the Stines so I wonder if this was before they became oddly close. IF BDI, I could see SS being brought into the fold if she discovered too much (say from more convos between BR and DS), and I could see her going along to protect Burke if she thought it was a childish accident. If JDI or PDI I'm less inclined to think she'd know the truth and still support them but maybe she would, she really seemed devoted to Patsy. SS's over the top actions in defense of the Ramseys make me think she must know SOMETHING.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, adding everything up does look bad for BR. But there is some information in PMPT which provides some clarification about BR and DS and the discussion they had.

DS and BR learned about the strangulation at a morning seminar, I believe.

The electronic media had carried the story the evening of the 27th, which included that JB had been strangled. Early in the case, Dec. 27, the principal at High Peaks felt that because of the fears of the children and hysteria of the parents, it would be good to have a meeting to talk about the death of JB. Some parents and older kids did know about her strangulation from TV reports. The principal arranged for a therapist(s) to make a presentation to the kids and discuss the facts of the case which were known. It was held on the morning of the 28th. In FF Kolar mentions the fact of strangulation was released in the newspapers on Dec. 28. I suspect this strangulation fact was given to the kids and parents that morning and discussed by DS and BR that afternoon.

The school psychologist told us he would tell the kids the facts that were known, but he assured us he wouldn’t go near the subject of whether JonBenét was sexually assaulted. . . .On Saturday morning, December 28, seventy parents and children showed up at High Peaks Elementary School. The administrator had arranged for therapists to come in to talk to the kids and their parents. PMPT

Then the strangulation puzzle and BR’s knowledge are further studied by Kolar and he flags this as something which is not understood.

Kolar, FF: As I reviewed the video time and again, I found it noteworthy that Burke never once mentioned the fact that he knew that JonBenét had been strangled during this conversation with Dr. Bernhard. As noted, Burke’s interview with Dr. Bernhard took place a little more than a week and a half after JonBenét’s murder on January 8, 1997. The fact that JonBenét had been strangled was common knowledge in Boulder by that juncture. . . Why would Burke tell Dr. Bernhard that he knew what had happened to JonBenét and not mention her strangulation? He clearly was aware that strangulation had been involved due to the conversations he was overheard having with Doug Stine not more than two days after the murder of his sister.

questfortrue,
BBM:Good catch, that's the likely source. Yes during both those taped interviews BR is acting dumb and giving nothing away. Tell you secrets if I did that they wouldn't be secret, but he mimics someone applying blunt force to JonBenet's head, and as you point out he must have known she was strangled. You have to wonder if DS said she was ligature strangled and BR was saying no it was manual, etc?

As I mentioned to PositiveLight it's all circumstantial, yet BR did sleep in sisters room as she did in his, they were caught playing doctor, not the crime of the century given their age, but it offers a motive via prior known behavior.

There must have been some serious revelation in the upcoming CBS 3rd episode for JR to tell BR your doing Dr Phil and tell them you went back downstairs after we all went to bed?

Since LW obviously had an advance viewing along with JR when they got there invite from CBS to comment on the show, they immediately took evasive action and told CBS they would litigate unless X,Y and Z was removed. Once Spitz spoke in public they decided to use him as an example for anyone else wanting to run BDI theories on the mass media.

.

 

[PositiveLight]

You're welcome, glad I could help!

About your questions:
1. I don't have any info besides what I posted but nothing to indicate Anthony was with them at the time. I would love to read the original police report Kolar got that from to get more context.

2. I agree it would be very interesting to have his old playmates interviewed, I wonder if any of them were contacted by the task force in 2010 or CBS more recently. As to Burke knowing about the strangulation, I had the same thought. If he didn't hear it from his parents, then where? The police didn't want to release info about the mode of death in the early reports and this was only 2 days after anyone knew she was strangled. Hinky.

However, here's a theory:
A) the first report in the Daily Camera on the 27th quoted Mason saying she was not shot or stabbed but no further info.
B) but on the 28th the DC refers to her as having been strangled, which is the first media mention of that fact I'm aware of - but who knows, it could have leaked even earlier on live news.
C) that convo happened after a schoolwide counseling session on the 28th. I doubt Burke attended but DS probably did since Kolar thought it was relevant to the context. If that info was in the morning paper (not sure that it was) it's possible classmates would have gleaned that info from their parents in some way, discussed it at school, and then DS relayed the info to Burke. It's impossible to know for sure.

Finally, yeah, it is curious that Patsy's Pitbull shared her concerns about that exchange with someone else. This was before the Ramseys were living with the Stines so I wonder if this was before they became oddly close. IF BDI, I could see SS being brought into the fold if she discovered too much (say from more convos between BR and DS), and I could see her going along to protect Burke if she thought it was a childish accident. If JDI or PDI I'm less inclined to think she'd know the truth and still support them but maybe she would, she really seemed devoted to Patsy. SS's over the top actions in defense of the Ramseys make me think she must know SOMETHING.

I think you may be correct.
It does seem that maybe PR had good reason to bring the Stine's into the fold. IIRC many former friends of theirs basically said the Ramsey's would dump them when they no longer needed them leaving many past friends with a sour taste in their mouths about them. I could understand their reasoning too. PR could be very compelling I'm sure to some and able to twist their knowledge of the crime to suit their needs. Maybe the Stine's were willing to sell their souls sorta speak to get up in society. JMOO

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Questfortrue, thanks for posting that from PMPT. I forgot that the actual details were discussed with the children that day. And thank you for pointing out Burke's seeming ignorance of the strangulation days after discussing it with DS, that is much more curious.

 

[PositiveLight]

Questfortrue, thanks for posting that from PMPT. I forgot that the actual details were discussed with the children that day. And thank you for pointing out Burke's seeming ignorance of the strangulation days after discussing it with DS, that is much more curious.

Completely agree!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[PositiveLight]

YAY!!! Welcome back everyone! :loveyou:

 

[BoldBear]

Burke was reunited with the family. Many of the adults in the house knew about the strangulation. Even if John and Patsy were trying to keep the details away from Burke, this could have been one of the things he discovered by overhearing a conversation. Does anyone on this site that believe there were no private conversations in the Stine household about the murder? My experience is that when the grieving begins, the family talks about the loss in hushed voices. It's oddly surreal, stark and numbing. If it was something he wasn't supposed to know, he may have kept it from the adults.