Was Burke Involved? # 4

[UKGuy]

I for one have never bought into the idea that Patsy would have put JonBenet in nicer clothes if the family was involved in the staging and redressing. From what at least one housekeeper said, Patsy didn't much care what JonBenet wore at home and what did it matter if police saw her in sloppier clothes? It could be the Ramseys didn't expect police to ever see the body, as there's been some speculation that originally they expected police to leave the house when the ransom call didn't come in so they could search for suspects/sex offenders, etc. Plus, putting her in better clothes would have raised the question of how and why an intruder took the time to go through her closet and select an outfit to dress her in. Putting something on her other than what she might have worn to bed points a finger straight back at the family and nowhere else, and they couldn't risk messing up their intruder theory anymore than they already had.

dogperson,
You and others are completely missing the point. Its not nice clothing that is missing, its appropriate bedtime clothing.

Size-12 Bloomingdale's and Burke's long johns simply do not cut it as something the parents would dress JonBenet in for a homicide crime-scene.

Nearly everyone, police included, saw a red flag when they found JonBenet wearing the size-12's. Patsy tried to explain this away by saying she put the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer.

And for Burke's long johns, that she personally fetched them whilst putting JonBenet to bed. Why: because her pajama bottoms were missing, despite having a drawer full of alternative pajama sets.

Plus, putting her in better clothes would have raised the question of how and why an intruder took the time to go through her closet and select an outfit to dress her in.

We already know she was expected to be wearing the pink pajama set that she wore on Christmas Eve, get it?

An intruder would not bother redressing JonBenet, where is the percentage in that?

So found in over sized underwear and male long johns as part of a crime-scene staging screams RDI.

Have you seen the Christmas photos of JonBenet in her pajamas? No big girl underwear or male pajama bottoms on display there!

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[UKGuy]

dont see it as a long shot.
see it as a real possibility as anything else.
i dont as ive stated before, believe the R'S put any where near the thought into this that we give them credit.
we read into alot that most likely is totally irrelevant.
the long johns for me were opportunistic only. as were the size 12's.
i think they were so traumatized by what they were doing all their focus was on stopping the death ugliness. (cleaning up the bodily fluids to begin with. then just had to let it go fighting a loosing battle.) i dont think appearances as in clothing at that point was significant to them at all.

patsy admits she put the ugly lj's on her....why?
because she did!

she had to say she got them from the bathroom because its a bit hard to tell LE you found them down in the basement out of hand me down bag while you were finishing off killing your daughter in a mercy to god moment when you never went down there hey?

k-mac,

the long johns for me were opportunistic only. as were the size 12's.

Correct BR used them to quickly redress JonBenet.

she had to say she got them from the bathroom

Correct, because she wants to deflect any blame aimed at BR, i.e. not his bedroom. Despite having numerous pajama sets and nightgowns Patsy just happens to select Burke's long johns.

If you believe all that then the R's have worked one over on you.

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[Userid]

^ The long-johns are a red herring. Honestly, they're long-johns. If you have siblings, you will realize how utterly common it was to wear your brother's or even your sister's long-johns to bed; or for them to accidently get mixed in with your laundry, because they look exactly the same and whoever was folding (and/or inserting) the laundry would simply mix them up. You're making much too big a deal about them, in my opinion.

The underwear -- yes, that is odd -- but the long-johns are not.

 

[UKGuy]

^ The long-johns are a red herring. Honestly, they're long-johns. If you have siblings, you will realize how utterly common it was to wear your brother's or even your sister's long-johns to bed; or for them to accidently get mixed in with your laundry, because they look exactly the same and whoever was folding (and/or inserting) the laundry would simply mix them up. You're making much too big a deal about them, in my opinion.

The underwear -- yes, that is odd -- but the long-johns are not.

Userid,
You are easily satisfied. Normal sized underwear and male long johns, well maybe that's a coincidence.

With Patsy explaining it all away, and the case looking like BDI, then Burke's long johns no longer look coincidental.

Bear in mind JonBenet has a full wardrobe of suitable pajama sets, excluding what she wore on Christmas Eve, yet she ends up in Burke's long johns, well that sounds odd to me.

Its the context, i.e. a homicide, not just the particular clothing.

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[Userid]

^ I'm not easily satisfied....hence why I don't buy your argument about the long-johns, lol.

It isn't really that odd that she ended up in BR's long-johns. Why would BR dress her in his own long-johns, when, as you say, she has a plethora of other sleepwear to choose from...in the very room you yourself personally believe to be the crime scene?

 

[k-mac]

uk guy

my point is /was the long johns dont specifically point to any RDI .
iknow you believe it points to BR while open to the idea i believe it points to PR.
but who ever did it i dont think it was a staging action.
simply part of the clean up down in the basement.

 

[k-mac]

You and others are completely missing the point. Its not nice clothing that is missing, its appropriate bedtime clothing.
.

if patsy admits leaving her in the gats top this says one of two things.
- what JBR wore to bed that night was irrelavant to them.
or
- JBR never got to the point of undressing into her pj's

 

[Tortoise]

if patsy admits leaving her in the gats top this says one of two things.
- what JBR wore to bed that night was irrelavant to them.
or
- JBR never got to the point of undressing into her pj's

PR's first account of JBR wearing the red top to bed convinces me that PR did not notice JBR was put back in the white Gap top after wearing the red top.

I think JR re-dressed her in the white top.

 

[UKGuy]

if patsy admits leaving her in the gats top this says one of two things.
- what JBR wore to bed that night was irrelavant to them.
or
- JBR never got to the point of undressing into her pj's

k-mac,
BBM: Absolutely not. What Patsy has to say in her version of events is said so to distance Burke and inject JonBenet into the R's sequence of events.

e.g. Patsy dresses JonBenet in Burke's long johns, Patsy puts the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer. Patsy leaves JonBenet in the white gap top, the latter is consistent with JonBenet being put straight to bed sleeping.

Do you get that, Patsy changes JonBenet into Burke's long johns but leaves her in the white gap top, why so?

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[UKGuy]

uk guy

my point is /was the long johns dont specifically point to any RDI .
iknow you believe it points to BR while open to the idea i believe it points to PR.
but who ever did it i dont think it was a staging action.
simply part of the clean up down in the basement.

k-mac,
BBM: OK, I agree. I am open to PDI, yet it just looks circumstantially as if Burke is a better candidate, with Patsy covering for him?

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[k-mac]

k-mac,
BBM: Absolutely not. What Patsy has to say in her version of events is said so to distance Burke and inject JonBenet into the R's sequence of events.

e.g. Patsy dresses JonBenet in Burke's long johns, Patsy puts the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer. Patsy leaves JonBenet in the white gap top, the latter is consistent with JonBenet being put straight to bed sleeping.

Do you get that, Patsy changes JonBenet into Burke's long johns but leaves her in the white gap top, why so?

.

or patsy leaves her in the gats top because she hasnt made it that far into the putting to bed .
its just impossible to say or know uk guy.
there is nothing concrete to support BDI about the long johns. as PDI.
only ones interpretation to suit ones theory. pure and simple.

TORTOISE
i think the red turtle neck was there from the battle earlier in the day.
although.... totally possible that patsy was trying to make her wear it for the trip in the morning. just another who the bloody hell knows??

 

[k-mac]

k-mac,
BBM: OK, I agree. I am open to PDI, yet it just looks circumstantially as if Burke is a better candidate, with Patsy covering for him?

.

thank you ukguy!
as iam open to bdi as well.
justdont think as i saywe can push either theory with the lj.s
:cheers:

 

[Tortoise]

or patsy leaves her in the gats top because she hasnt made it that far into the putting to bed .
its just impossible to say or know uk guy.
there is nothing concrete to support BDI about the long johns. as PDI.
only ones interpretation to suit ones theory. pure and simple.

TORTOISE
i think the red turtle neck was there from the battle earlier in the day.
although.... totally possible that patsy was trying to make her wear it for the trip in the morning. just another who the bloody hell knows??

That is what I think. She told JBR to get changed into the clothes she was going to wear to the airport, so there would be no delay in the morning, and saw her in the red top.

 

[UKGuy]

thank you ukguy!
as iam open to bdi as well.
justdont think as i saywe can push either theory with the lj.s
:cheers:

k-mac,
When they were just long johns. I always thought they were female, that's from 1996 until the evidence photo was published showing they were BR's long johns.

On their own, I agree they do not point to any particular RDI, but along with the size-12's and Patsy's explanations, it looks like BDI to me.

I'm currently sticking to Kolar's version of BDI, until something breaks it. I'm aware other variations on BDI exist, but entertaining them all would just lead to confusion.

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[k-mac]

k-mac,
When they were just long johns. I always thought they were female, that's from 1996 until the evidence photo was published showing they were BR's long johns.

On their own, I agree they do not point to any particular RDI, but along with the size-12's and Patsy's explanations, it looks like BDI to me.

I'm currently sticking to Kolar's version of BDI, until something breaks it. I'm aware other variations on BDI exist, but entertaining them all would just lead to confusion.

.

i used to feel kolar was the boss about everything.
but the more i read the more i question his authority on the case as a whole.
there is lots of stuff he doesnt seem to know about ie only today kanz reposted kk's post about the bloomies being in ramsey possession and when kk questioned him he said he didnt know about it???
it makes me wonder if kolar was only interested in BDI evidence.
that concerns me alot and makes me doubt him a little in his full rounded detective work.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

In Kolar's defense, I'm not aware of an authoritative source that the Bloomie package was returned to the DAs office, that info came from Jameson. I also seem to recall Lin Wood referring to handing over some evidence after he got the case transferred to Mary Lacy (because he didn't trust the BPD with it [emoji849]), but it was not specified that it was the package. And I'd have to seriously dig for that source, don't recall where it came from.

So it's possible he didn't know about the package being handed over because it wasn't. (Though I'm leaning towards it was) IIRC He really doesn't address the size of the Bloomies in his book at all, he's focused on debunking the DNA. It's a missed opportunity and one of the things I wish he'd tackled.





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[TeaTime]

JBR was dressed for bed in the Gap top, the giant undies and the boys long johns and was later found dead in the same clothes. There was no redressing. Someone pulled the bottoms up after molesting her and wiping away the evidence but this is what she was wearing when she went to sleep that night.

There is simply NO reason to invent a redressing scenario. When PR said she was dressed in the red top for bed, she was just lying to distance herself from any knowledge of the crime.

Everything they said happened after they left the Stine's house is a lie. Everything. They drove away from the home and entered the Twilight Zone which erased their memories.

 

[Rott Mom]

jbr was dressed for bed in the gap top, the giant undies and the boys long johns and was later found dead in the same clothes. There was no redressing. Someone pulled the bottoms up after molesting her and wiping away the evidence but this is what she was wearing when she went to sleep that night.

There is simply no reason to invent a redressing scenario. When pr said she was dressed in the red top for bed, she was just lying to distance herself from any knowledge of the crime.

Everything they said happened after they left the stine's house is a lie. Everything. They drove away from the home and entered the twilight zone which erased their memories.

this...

 

[kanzz]

In Kolar's defense, I'm not aware of an authoritative source that the Bloomie package was returned to the DAs office, that info came from Jameson. I also seem to recall Lin Wood referring to handing over some evidence after he got the case transferred to Mary Lacy (because he didn't trust the BPD with it [emoji849]), but it was not specified that it was the package. And I'd have to seriously dig for that source, don't recall where it came from.

So it's possible he didn't know about the package being handed over because it wasn't. (Though I'm leaning towards it was) IIRC He really doesn't address the size of the Bloomies in his book at all, he's focused on debunking the DNA. It's a missed opportunity and one of the things I wish he'd tackled.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When you say, "that the Bloomie package was returned to the DAs office", is that in regards to this statement in KK's post?

From the long KoldKase post I bumped earlier in the Kolar thread:
"Team Ramsey continued to hold onto that package until Wood managed to stage an unprecedented legal coup in a murder investigation by wresting it away from the only LE agency that should have ever had control over it once it became a murder and not a kidnapping--the BPD."

I was unclear about that sentence, because just a bit before that, she says:
"Did I mention FIVE YEARS after the child's death a critical piece of evidence was finally turned over to Ramsey sympathizer Lacy for "investigation"? "

 

[kanzz]

i used to feel kolar was the boss about everything.
but the more i read the more i question his authority on the case as a whole.
there is lots of stuff he doesnt seem to know about ie only today kanzz reposted kk's post about the bloomies being in ramsey possession and when kk questioned him he said he didnt know about it???
it makes me wonder if kolar was only interested in BDI evidence.
that concerns me alot and makes me doubt him a little in his full rounded detective work.

Well, in all fairness, the next lines of KK's post say:

"Of course Kolar had no ability to look at every page or report of the 40K page case file: who would in one lifetime? If the package was processed, the reports are buried somewhere in that file.

Unless they were destroyed...or never even produced."
BBM

And everything about the R's investigators turning over this so-called evidence is the R version. There is no BPD version, to my knowledge. So, if Kolar said he never heard of it, maybe that's why?