Was Burke Involved # 5

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Tricia, Dec 28, 2016.

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  1. MzOpinion8d

    MzOpinion8d Former Member

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    I think it is Peppermintswirlz you are disagreeing with.

    And whom I disagree with as well. Kolar didn't make that up.
     


  2. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

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    Tall, but not impossible. She had to make it look convincing, right? (I don't think she did the sexual part, though.)
     
  3. Ambitioned

    Ambitioned Active Member

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    Kolar did not make it up. Stop with the Goddamned intruder theories please.

    The evidence points to either PDI or BDI.
     
  4. flourish

    flourish Now With 30% More Emo

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    "Dear Websleuths Members,

    Our rules at Websleuths are rarely black and white. Many time we have to adjust rules for certain forums.

    One rule we do our best to follow is who is allowed to be discussed when it comes to the particular crime committed.

    We discuss possible perpetrators based on the mainstream media and police reports.

    We do not allow posters to drag innocent people into a discussion and accuse them of a crime.

    Because of this rule, we only discuss John, Patsy, and Burke Ramsey in this forum.

    Those three people have not been cleared by the police and the current District Attorney.

    There is nothing to suggest an intruder. The DNA is a red herring. Look at the note, the pineapple, all the evidence in the house, the behavior of the three people in the house, look at all these things. Until all of these things can be explained and logical evidence is offered to show an intruder we will not allow innocent people to be discussed as the possible killer. Just like any other forum on Websleuths.

    Thank you,
    Tricia Griffith
    Owner/Websleuths.com"

    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12797134
     
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  5. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

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    Kolar stated in his reddit ama that neither the candy box nor the pajama pants were ever collected into evidence; therefore, those items could never be tested.
     
  6. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

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    And I reckon Kolar was foolish for having mentioned those pajama pants in his book when he knew they hadn't been collected into evidence.
     
  7. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    Yes, bc at the time no one thought that these things were important enough to collect. However, they were important enough that the CSI made note of it. That's why it's in the official file.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  8. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    Then he would be ignoring evidence.


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  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    icedtea4me,
    Sure but there will be crime-scene photographs cataloging that they exist? As you suggest, since they were not bagged and collected, we cannot prove they belonged to Burke Ramsey definitely, yet I reckon we know enough to attribute them to Burke Ramsey on a speculative basis, i.e. we canot claim it as FACT.

    Here is the speculative bit:

    The Soiled Pajama Bottoms found on JonBenet's bedroom floor did not belong to her, e.g. Kolar's eyes say they look too large.

    JonBenet never wore those Soiled Pajama Bottoms the night before, The Pajama Top she did wear can be seen in crime-scene photographs lying at the top of her bed, the matching Pajama Bottoms are missing.

    So at some point in the past JonBenet might have worn those Soiled Pajama Bottoms and dropped them on the bedroom floor forgetting all about them, when did LHP go on vacation, i.e. they might be an old pair of Burke Ramsey's Pajama Bottoms?

    With a Pajama Set lying on her bed, i.e. you can see her wearing it in photographs taken on Christmas morning, and a drawer full of nightgowns and pajamas JonBenet has no need to be wearing Burke's old clothes.

    So as per occam and KISS I'm plumbing for the Soiled Pajama Bottoms belonging to Burke Ramsey and that JonBenet's bedroom is the primary crime-scene with the wine-cellar being a secondary crime-scene fabricated by Patsy and John in an attempt to save their reputation?



    We have a homicide that includes defecation, fecal smearing, sexual asault, blunt force trauma, and staging.

    .
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    icedtea4me,
    Sure but was the candy box smeared, Holly Smith can confirm here, is there a crime-scene photograph, similar for the pajama pants, is there a crime-scene photo?

    This information will leak out at some point in the future, I doubt either Holly Smith or James Kolar are making stuff up, particularly over apparently unimportant details.

    .
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Not impossible, but must surely require a revision of the standard PDI to include either JR or BR? I reckon Patsy ligature asphyxiated JonBenet, her project, so who is your most likely candidate for the sexual assault?


    .
     
  12. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

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    Do you think those items would be allowed to be presented in a trial if they were never collected into evidence, yes or no?
     
  13. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

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    Which one do you think it was?

    a. a tiny amount (i.e. a square millimeter) left after poor handwashing and then wiped on the wall
    b. a fecal stool was removed from the toilet bowl and wiped on the wall
     
  14. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

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    You're talking my language, UKGuy. John is my most likely candidate for that.
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    OK, so did John sexually assault JonBenet? You reckon Patsy was staging for John, thus explaining why so little forensics actually link to him?

    Is John responsible for JonBenet's chronic internal injuries? Why did Patsy ligature asphyxiate JonBenet and not John?


    .
     
  16. otg

    otg Well-Known Member

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    Why the continued denial of the issue of fecal smearing? It doesn’t prove who did it -- it doesn’t prove someone didn’t do it. It’s just a fact about this case that requires investigators to consider its meaning.

    So, what evidence is there of it? There is circumstantial evidence, witness accounts, and photographic evidence. Additionally, Patsy was questioned about it in police interviews.

    I posted this a few years ago. For those who didn’t see it or have forgotten, I’ll reprint it here in hopes we can put this denial to rest (my comments are in green):
    Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998 (emphasis mine):

    14 TOM HANEY: Skip ahead to 242. (Inaudible).
    15 TRIP DEMUTH: Look at all those pictures,
    16 242, 43 and 44 and 45 together.
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is the little bathroom in
    18 the basement.
    19 TOM HANEY: Anything out of place or unusual
    20 in those photos?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the bathroom we hadn't
    22 utilized very much. These little Christmas decorations
    23 were left over from -- I had put those there when we
    24 had the home tour two years earlier, because the
    25 volunteers used this area and I had a bathroom
    0408
    1 available.
    2 TRIP DEMUTH: That photo 244 was shut, is
    3 that how you left them?
    4 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, that, yes. I would have
    5 left that. I left it like that.
    6 Now this, I don't know what that is -- why
    7 that would be there.
    8 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to like tissue.
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: It is like tissue something,
    10 because I remember I specifically asked Linda some time
    11 in the not-so-distant future to go down and clean that
    12 bathroom because I think one of the boys had used the
    13 bathroom and not flushed it. It was kind of yucko, so
    14 she had gone down there. So I don't know if that is
    15 her cleaning rag she left there or what.

    She “specifically asked Linda to go down and clean that bathroom because (she thought) one of the boys had used the bathroom and not flushed it.” Really? If it was simply an unflushed toilet, she would send the housekeeper down to “clean that bathroom” rather than simply telling Burke to go flush it? And what is it they see in the photo that they’re discussing here? Referred to as “tissue” or possibly a “cleaning rag”, it must be a pile of tissue or toilet paper left somewhere in the room where it doesn’t belong (on the floor?). Why would it be in its apparent location instead of in the toilet?
    16 TOM HANEY: Do you know for a fact that she
    17 did clean it, could she have been in there since?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I don't remember that too
    19 much about that bathroom.
    20 TOM HANEY: When you were present she wasn't
    21 in there?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: No. The door was usually
    23 closed because that -- that door opens right when you
    24 came down those steps. (Inaudible). There are a bunch
    25 of smears on here.
    0409
    1 TRIP DEMUTH: Pointing to 205.
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    3 TOM HANEY: Do you recall seeing anything
    4 like that there before seeing that?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because I had that whole
    6 downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.

    Obviously they’re talking about some sort of “smears” on the wall in this area because Patsy says she had “had that whole downstairs painted, I mean cleaned.” I don’t know whether it was actually painted or simply cleaned, but whatever “smears” they discuss here shouldn’t have been there on the wall if either was done.
    7 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that?
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 1994, before that home
    9 tour, Christmas home tour.
    10 TRIP DEMUTH: Who used that bathroom?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: The boys. You know, Burke and
    12 Evan were down there playing with the trains. They
    13 would go in there and use it.
    14 TRIP DEMUTH: What do you mean that they had
    15 not flushed that toilet, what do you mean by that?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I think someone had gone
    17 to the potty and hadn't flushed it. It was there for
    18 several days.
    19 TOM HANEY: Are we talking urine?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. It was just
    21 reported to me. It was, mom, the bathroom is pretty
    22 yucky, and Linda took care of it is the way I think it
    23 went.
    24 TRIP DEMUTH: How common was it for Evan and
    25 Burke to not flush?
    0410
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Burke is pretty well
    2 trained, because that is one of my big pet peeves, but
    3 Evan I don't know about.

    IOW, “Not MY son. He’d never do such a thing.”
    4 TRIP DEMUTH: What does that mean, Patsy,
    5 when you say you don't know about?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know whether he
    7 flushes regularly.
    8 TRIP DEMUTH: That could imply, I don't know
    9 about him because he doesn't flush, or I wanted to
    10 clear that up.
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I would believe
    12 it was Evan that used it and didn't flush rather than
    13 my son. I would like to believe that.

    Again, “It was not MY son.”
    14 TRIP DEMUTH: Was it a more than one-time
    15 occasion in this bathroom down there?
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: I just remember that one.
    17 TRIP DEMUTH: When was that? It doesn't have
    18 to be precise, I mean how long before Christmas?
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. I don't know
    20 exactly. I just remember it happening.
    21 TRIP DEMUTH: Right before Christmas?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: I just can't remember. I just
    23 remember the event that there was a dirty bathroom bowl
    24 and obviously the boys were down there using it and not
    25 flushing.
    0411
    1 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know, did Linda clean it
    2 up, do you know?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: I -- I am sure she did, but I
    4 didn't go down there and double check it.
    5 TOM HANEY: Is she usually pretty confident
    6 if you give her something?
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    8 TRIP DEMUTH: Had you been in this bathroom
    9 at all prior to Christmas of '96?
    10 PATSY RAMSEY: No. I hadn't been in there.
    11 You can tell I haven't been in there since '94.

    I’m not sure on the above questioning, but it seems like here DeMuth is trying to pin Patsy down on when the toilet bowl was cleaned last prior to JonBenet’s death. It could be that they are trying to establish a time frame for when something found in the toilet bowl (blood maybe?) would have to have been deposited.
    12 TOM HANEY: Anything else? The tissue of
    13 some kind.
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
    15 TOM HANEY: 246 now.
    16 PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Is that the hall
    17 from here? No.
    18 TRIP DEMUTH: That is a closer picture of the
    19 wall.
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, is it? Okay. It looks
    21 dirty to me, that close up.

    Photo #246 seems to be a close-up of a smear (or smears) on the wall. Why else would the CSIs have taken a close-up of the smears on the wall if it was only a spot of dirt on the wall? They’re (IMO) trying to get Patsy to admit what she knows it to be: smeared feces.




    Before the lawsuits were filed, there were interviews with the participants available about the CBS docuseries. In one of them, they said they had used peanut butter to re-create the smears in the bathroom. Before the series was shown (as we all know), one hour of the original was cut out before airing. This “re-creation” was not aired. As for the amount, decide for yourself. Was it "a tiny amount (i.e. a square millimeter)?" The following is one of the CS photos of the basement bathroom wall:
    [​IMG]
     

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  17. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Victimologist

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    Thank you, otg. A large pill of truth here, tough for some to swallow.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  18. meade

    meade Member

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    Fill me in, what is the significance of those smears? That's a lot (if true). If it had something to do with the murders, and the parents were involved, why wouldn't they have cleaned it up? That's seriously a lot of smears!
     
  19. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

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    If these are crime scene photos, then why isn't each one labeled "Crime Scene Photo- Not For Publication"?
     
  20. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

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    That's my hunch.

    I don't know if she was staging for him--at least, not to her way of thinking--but it MIGHT have occurred to him.

    Yes, I do think that.

    I can only speculate, UKGuy. Maybe he figured that everyone cleaned up their own mess here.
     
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