Was Burke Involved # 5

[Cottonstar]

Wasn't that flashlight clean of all fingerprints if I recall correctly?

Yes, it was wiped clean. Someone, also opened the battery compartment and wiped clean all of the batteries.


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[icedtea4me]

The flashlight had a cross-hatch coating which would not be conducive to fingerprints.

 

[Ambitioned]

Thought it was a maglite no? Weren't the batteries wiped clean as well?

 

[Ambitioned]

Yes, it was wiped clean. Someone, also opened the battery compartment and wiped clean all of the batteries.


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Thanks, I thought so too.

 

[Userid]

Um, they had a fireplace, boiler room, and paper is rather easy to get rid of. Back to the drawing board.


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You know how easy it would have been for the police to detect if a fire place was recently used that morning?

Why didn't they get rid of the pen then? Why was it put back, along with the notepad? Wouldn't that have been even easier to get rid of? I'll tell you why: because they didn't think they needed to. Same with the pad.

 

[Userid]

The flashlight had a cross-hatch coating which would not be conducive to fingerprints.

Correct -- this is what people don't understand about fingerprints. They simply believe that it must have been wiped, when in reality, fingerprints aren't always left of certain surfaces, depending on skin type and the amount of grease. Not only that, but prints can evaporate as well. I'm not saying the flashlight wasn't used in the murder at all -- I don't know -- I'm just stating a fact: simply because no prints were found on an object, doesn't definitively prove said object was wiped down. It reminds me of the Kurt Cobain case. There were no prints found on the shotgun, so people automatically assume it was a murder. That isn't the case, at least necessarily.

What we can say, definitively, is that there were no prints on the flashlight nor the batteries.

 

[Cottonstar]

The flashlight had a cross-hatch coating which would not be conducive to fingerprints.

That's funny. Only a very small part had that coating. If you want to go that route, than you can say that batteries have one of the best surfaces to get fingerprints from. It was wiped clean. Period. That is what the evidence portrays.


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[Cottonstar]

You know how easy it would have been for the police to detect if a fire place was recently used that morning?

Why didn't they get rid of the pen then? Why was it put back, along with the notepad? Wouldn't that have been even easier to get rid of? I'll tell you why: because they didn't think they needed to. Same with the pad.

They had to hit a homerun on an 0-2 count. Knowing they couldn't leave their house, they used the pen and pad from their own house. Because they had too. They left these items out on purpose, just like the flashlight. Of course, they knew they were going to be asked for handwriting samples. JR handed over the pads that he had moved earlier. He knew where they were the whole time.


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[Cottonstar]

Correct -- this is what people don't understand about fingerprints. They simply believe that it must have been wiped, when in reality, fingerprints aren't always left of certain surfaces, depending on skin type and the amount of grease. Not only that, but prints can evaporate as well. I'm not saying the flashlight wasn't used in the murder at all -- I don't know -- I'm just stating a fact: simply because no prints were found on an object, doesn't definitively prove said object was wiped down. It reminds me of the Kurt Cobain case. There were no prints found on the shotgun, so people automatically assume it was a murder. That isn't the case, at least necessarily.

What we can say, definitively, is that there were no prints on the flashlight nor the batteries.

Hmmmmm, no fingerprints on the flashlight, or the ransom note.

The Ramseys don’t pay much attention to the note, preferring not to touch it or handle it. They don’t handle it themselves, they don’t hand it to one another and they don’t hand it to police. It’s kind of just there.

The flashlight and ransom note are two things that their fingerprints SHOULD BE ON! Ask yourself why there isn't any?


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[Tricia]

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[Userid]

They had to hit a homerun on an 0-2 count. Knowing they couldn't leave their house, they used the pen and pad from their own house. Because they had too. They left these items out on purpose, just like the flashlight. Of course, they knew they were going to be asked for handwriting samples. JR handed over the pads that he had moved earlier. He knew where they were the whole time.


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No, they didn't. If they did, JR would have never handed over the notepad. They would have distanced themselves from the notepad. You act as if the notepad didn't directly implicate PR, which is mind-boggling. Why he would hand that over, purposefully, makes absolutely zero sense. It directly implicated PR.

 

[Cottonstar]

No, they didn't. If they did, JR would have never handed over the notepad. They would have distanced themselves from the notepad. You act as if the notepad didn't directly implicate PR, which is mind-boggling. Why he would hand that over, purposefully, makes absolutely zero sense. It directly implicated PR.

I've already laid out, in detail, the psychology behind the reason he did. During his interviews with Smit, he employed plausible deniability when talking about handing over the notepad to LE. "Hey, give me some credit here, would I be that dumb?". You are either ignoring the circumstances around photo 17.7, or you are unaware of them.

"Photo 17.7 demonstrates the final shifts in crime scene items that appear to have been placed like props in a movie." from "sequin star: 2000 - 2006 (The JonBenét Ramsey Story Book 1)" by Nick van der Leek, Lisa Wilson


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[AndHence]

I've already laid out, in detail, the psychology behind the reason he did. During his interviews with Smit, he employed plausible deniability when talking about handing over the notepad to LE. "Hey, give me some credit here, would I be that dumb?". You are either ignoring the circumstances around photo 17.7, or you are unaware of them.

"Photo 17.7 demonstrates the final shifts in crime scene items that appear to have been placed like props in a movie." from "sequin star: 2000 - 2006 (The JonBenét Ramsey Story Book 1)" by Nick van der Leek, Lisa Wilson


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Photo 17.7 is incomplete story without the entire context. Photo 17.7 was taken to finish off the reel so the police could have access to the photos taken Christmas day. We have not seen nor do we know when the crime scene photos were taken. Was it before or after John handed over the pads? This is still unclear. Do the police reports state where John Ramsey went to retrieve the pad? The photo is only relevant if it was taken before John handed the pad over. As for John's exemplar, he is said to have scribbled the filler text "Now is the time for all good men" on some paper and handing that to LE.

 

[Cottonstar]

Photo 17.7 is incomplete story without the entire context. Photo 17.7 was taken to finish off the reel so the police could have access to the photos taken Christmas day. We have not seen nor do we know when the crime scene photos were taken. Was it before or after John handed over the pads? This is still unclear. Do the police reports state where John Ramsey went to retrieve the pad? The photo is only relevant if it was taken before John handed the pad over. As for John's exemplar, he is said to have scribbled the filler text "Now is the time for all good men" on some paper and handing that to LE.

AndHence,

Photo 17.7 was taken BEFORE John was asked to hand over exemplars. Officer Barry Weiss had completed the "kidnapping phase" photos by the time Detective Whitson arrived at 9:15am. He asked John for exemplars, John went and retrieved two notepads. He told told Patterson which one was Patsy's, and which one was his. Patterson, then handed over the notepads to Whitson. Whitson wrote their respective names on the notepads and later handed them over to Det. Jeff Kithcart. The notepads were later entered into evidence as #1 RAW, and #2 RAW.


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[Userid]

I've already laid out, in detail, the psychology behind the reason he did. During his interviews with Smit, he employed plausible deniability when talking about handing over the notepad to LE. "Hey, give me some credit here, would I be that dumb?". You are either ignoring the circumstances around photo 17.7, or you are unaware of them.

"Photo 17.7 demonstrates the final shifts in crime scene items that appear to have been placed like props in a movie." from "sequin star: 2000 - 2006 (The JonBenét Ramsey Story Book 1)" by Nick van der Leek, Lisa Wilson


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I know you've laid it out, I just don't agree. There is no logical reason he would have purposefully handed over those pads. The pad directly pointed to PR -- this is a fact you can't deny. He tries to backtrack his mistake when interviewed by police, but he handed them over either due to panic or due to ignorance, which poses the question: has it ever occurred to you that PR wrote the ransom note out of JR's presence (assuming it was written upstairs while JR staged the crime in the cellar)? There are many possibilities why he handed over that note, the least being which, purposefully -- unless he purposefully meant to implicate PR.

 

[Userid]

AndHence,

Photo 17.7 was taken BEFORE John was asked to hand over exemplars. Officer Barry Weiss had completed the "kidnapping phase" photos by the time Detective Whitson arrived at 9:15am. He asked John for exemplars, John went and retrieved two notepads. He told told Patterson which one was Patsy's, and which one was his. Patterson, then handed over the notepads to Whitson. Whitson wrote their respective names on the notepads and later handed them over to Det. Jeff Kithcart. The notepads were later entered into evidence as #1 RAW, and #2 RAW.


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That's why it directly proves my point. That photo was taken in the police's presence, before writing samples were collected. So, JR knew, that the police knew they were there. And of course, once he was asked to submit writing samples, he had absolutely no other choice but to submit those pads. That's where the panic set in, just as it did when he was with FW when he dashed to the cellar room to finally uncover the body. He could have done that at any time. Why then? Because he panicked in the presence of an authority figure in both instances.

Only PR could tell you her thought process as to why she would put those items back. Another reason why those pads and the pen were put back by PR, was to make it appear normal and to make it appear as if the pad (and pen) was never moved or used -- because the R's didn't want police to know they wrote the note. If those items were left out, police would have known they were used to write the ransom note. Because there's no way the note was written where the pads were normally kept.

 

[Userid]

AndHence,

Photo 17.7 was taken BEFORE John was asked to hand over exemplars. Officer Barry Weiss had completed the "kidnapping phase" photos by the time Detective Whitson arrived at 9:15am. He asked John for exemplars, John went and retrieved two notepads. He told told Patterson which one was Patsy's, and which one was his. Patterson, then handed over the notepads to Whitson. Whitson wrote their respective names on the notepads and later handed them over to Det. Jeff Kithcart. The notepads were later entered into evidence as #1 RAW, and #2 RAW.


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I believe you're missing Andhence's point. Her point is, it isn't that cut and dry. This article, for example, illustrates this point: https://shakedowntitle.com/2016/12/09/jonbenet-ramsey-case-insights-2-red-flags-surround-photo-17-7/

 

[AndHence]

AndHence,

Photo 17.7 was taken BEFORE John was asked to hand over exemplars. Officer Barry Weiss had completed the "kidnapping phase" photos by the time Detective Whitson arrived at 9:15am. He asked John for exemplars, John went and retrieved two notepads. He told told Patterson which one was Patsy's, and which one was his. Patterson, then handed over the notepads to Whitson. Whitson wrote their respective names on the notepads and later handed them over to Det. Jeff Kithcart. The notepads were later entered into evidence as #1 RAW, and #2 RAW.


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I should've been clearer. What I meant is that photo 17.7 (taken by John) is only relevant if we know for a fact that the crime scene photos taken by police were taken before he handed over the pads. If those photos show no pads (as alleged) and he had yet to hand them over, then this is significant. It would suggest they had been moved around. However, if they were taken after he had already handed the pads over, then there is no significance.

 

[Cottonstar]

I should've been clearer. What I meant is that photo 17.7 (taken by John) is only relevant if we know for a fact that the crime scene photos taken by police were taken before he handed over the pads. If those photos show no pads (as alleged) and he had yet to hand them over, then this is significant. It would suggest they had been moved around. However, if they were taken after he had already handed the pads over, then there is no significance.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. The answer to your question is, yes, the crime scene photos from the kidnapping stage(morning)were already completed when Whitson asked JR for handwriting exemplars. When Whitson arrived at 9:15am, Officer Weiss had already photographed the house and was back at the police station making copies of JonBenét photos to distribute to other officers. Not only does the ransom note notepad disappear but the cleaning products under the glass table, do as well. JR and/or PR moved things around before the the crime scene photographer started snapping photos.


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[Cottonstar]

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. The answer to your question is, yes, the crime scene photos from the kidnapping stage(morning)were already completed when Whitson asked JR for handwriting exemplars. When Whitson arrived at 9:15am, Officer Weiss had already photographed the house and was back at the police station making copies of JonBenét photos to distribute to other officers. Not only does the ransom note notepad disappear but the cleaning products under the glass table, do as well. JR and/or PR moved things around before the the crime scene photographer started snapping photos.


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Then, when JR is asked by Whitson for exemplars, he b-lines it straight to the kitchen nook, where he handed over Patsy's pad to LE. To me, this is proof that John moved the ransom note pad to the kitchen nook before the crime scene photos were taken, and stashed it in the kitchen nook(where the intruder would have found notepads laying around). When asked, he specifically goes to the nook and grabs the pad to give to LE. JR knew where that pad was the whole time.


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