Provided this information is well-sourced, we have what I think is an important clue in the case. If you look through my post history, I actually had a lengthy post concerning photo 17.7 but could never ascertain the timeline of when John's photos were taken versus the officer's photos. It's also not helpful that we've never had access to the police photos. I assume the interviews make it clear that the pads are absent in them.
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Provided this information is well-sourced, we have what I think is an important clue in the case. If you look through my post history, I actually had a lengthy post concerning photo 17.7 but could never ascertain the timeline of when John's photos were taken versus the officer's photos. It's also not helpful that we've never had access to the police photos. I assume the interviews make it clear that the pads are absent in them.
CorallaroC
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Hi AndHence, I appreciate your viewpoint and agree that if the sources explaining the timing of pic 17.7 are correct, it could most certainly provide valuable clues to the case.
I wish I could to back and read your previous posts, but I am just not able to do that. So if you could summarize specifically why this photo could be a game changer perhaps? at least if regarding the proposed timeline recently suggested. I sorta get it, but not well enough to formulate an opinion yet. TIA and again I value your input and viewpoints very much
I wish I could to back and read your previous posts, but I am just not able to do that. So if you could summarize specifically why this photo could be a game changer perhaps? at least if regarding the proposed timeline recently suggested. I sorta get it, but not well enough to formulate an opinion yet. TIA and again I value your input and viewpoints very much
The first thing that is notable about the photo discrepancies is the fact that LE questioned both John and Patsy about them in the first place. We can infer that they found the missing pads a point of interest. It suggests that the pads and cleaning products were moved during the morning by the Ramseys. Why would they do this? Were they covering up the staging? It would be highly improbable for the parents to move what would become crucial items in the case unwittingly. Recall also that both the pen and the pad the ransom note was written with/on were placed back in their usual areas -- what a thoughtful intruder, right?
Additionally, John and Patsy's disparate responses to being questioned about the photos is interesting. John more or less admits that photo 17.7 is of the pads he handed to LE that day; Patsy maintains that there were so many pads of the same make lying around the house that it could be any one of them in the picture.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
Thank you CC. What makes photo 17.7 so valuable is that it exposes a hole in the narrative that investigators never knew was there. Officer French asked for John's film in his camera early on the morning on the 26th. John started snapping pictures to finish off the role of film. In doing so, he unwittingly snapped a photo of the glass table in the hallway between the South patio door and the spiral staircase. Crime scene photo #52 is the picture the police took that shows the glass table. This crime scene photo does not show Patsy's notepad on the table. In photo 17.7, which was from John's camera, it shows Patsy's notepad on the glass table. This means someone(presumably JR) moved that pad to a safe place(kitchen nook) before Officer Weiss started photographing the house. After 9:15am, when Whitson asked JR for handwriting exemplars, JR went to the kitchen nook and handed over Patsy's pad, along with his pad, to Patterson, who in turn, gave them to Whitson. Not only, is Patsy's pad and cleaning supplies absent from the crime scene photo, but so is John's daytimer. As Van der Leek puts it "Photo 17.7 demonstrates the final shifts in crime scene items that appear to have been placed like props in a movie."
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questfortrue
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Cottonstar,
If you have a source which specifies that French asked for the pictures taken at the Christmas party, could you furnish it please. Id take your word for it and would believe you may be correct in this, but my research on this item turned up something different, particularly in the timeline. Warning - overlong post here.
The CSI who shot the photos weve been able to see arrived at approximately 6:45-7:00 am (according to both Schiller and the Bonita papers.) Their role was to search the scene for evidence, take photos, dust for fingerprints.
Sgt. Whitson arrived at the home at about 9:30 am on the 26[SUP]th[/SUP]. He began questioning JR about any suspects he may have in mind. Of course one of their early suspects was LHP, their housekeeper who needed money.
From FF: Whitson asked Ramsey about any suspects that came to mind, and he mentioned a former employee of his company, Jeff Merrick, who had left under difficult circumstances. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, the familys current housekeeper, was also named, and this was due to her recent request for a monetary loan from his wife.
I speculate that it was possibly at that time that JR gave the police a roll of undeveloped film taken at their Christmas party on December 23. He said it might contain an image of Linda Hoffmann-Pugh. A few minutes later, it was taken to Mikes Camera on Pearl Street for processing. The photos would be ready at noon. (PMPT) Mikes Camera likely didnt open until after 10:00 am.
Ill include some interview excerpts at the end of this post. But heres why I find this info both confusing and intriguing.
If I understand this correctly, I believe 17.7 aka 120TET8 from the R camera seems to show the pad on the table near the circular staircase. The pad then appears to have been removed in the subsequent photo taken by the police early on the morning of the 26[SUP]th[/SUP] in the Kidnapping Phase, sometime after 6:45 when the CSI arrived. The question remains why did he shoot that photo. Did he take that picture on Christmas morning before the photo of the kids, or is it more likely that it was simply the order of the photos in the police stack of photos? (Excerpt from Patsys interview with Haney below.)
It makes no sense that JR handed the photo roll over later that morning and the excuse for that photo 17.7 was that he was maybe merely testing the camera. That claim is not rational, since he did have a photo of the kids on Christmas morning per Haneys interview of Patsy. It also makes no sense that he was shooting some photos to run down the film roll in order to remove it from the camera. For the record, even back in the 90s, all cameras had an automatic-rewind button on the bottom of the camera. So that excuse doesnt really fly on the part of JR.
If there was an aim in taking that photo, Ill let someone else read the intent of JR. Possibilities-
1) "Yeah, yeah, Im a CEO, but I didnt know about automatic rewinds on cameras."
2) "I tripped on the stairs and accidentally shot that photo on Christmas morning."
3) "I was thinking about framing Patsys role in the note, but had a change of heart when this photo was discovered and questioned in comparison to the police photo."
Excerpt from Patsys 98 interview:
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
16 TOM HANEY: Well, this photo 12OTET8 was on
17 your roll of file in your camera. And on the
18 same roll is the next photo, a Christmas morning
19 photo of the kids.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes). Oh, God.
21 TOM HANEY: Before we, before we talk too
22 much about the next photo, if you can --
And excerpt from JRs Interview:
5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of
6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a
7 picture --
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.
9 You think this came off my camera or
10 you're not sure?
11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it
12 came off your camera.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had
14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I
15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we
16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in
17 the camera and I think I clicked off some
18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the
19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the
20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it
21 to get developed.
22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this
23 picture here with the pad --
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have
25 been when I was just burning up pictures.
0512
1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 LOU SMIT: That morning?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been
6 taken just shortly before?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's
8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted
9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got
10 'em, there was wasn't complete.
11 LOU SMIT: So then that would
12 show the pad in its spot that morning?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it
15 to the police officer?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
QFT-
I have to correct some details in my previous post. After, a thorough and careful review of known facts and police reports, I have tweaked my timeline of how I believe things happened that morning. The Ramsey's pointed the finger at Hoffman-Pugh from the moment French walked in the door. They relayed their concerns about LHP to French, telling him about comments she had made, how she needed money, had a key, etc...
Shorty after Linda Arndt arrived at (8:10), she received a briefing from French. In French's report he says he related all factors and information to Arndt relating to LHP, and Arndt started to develop background information on LPH. Shortly after, is when Arndt spoke with JR concerning LHP. Quoting directly from Linda Arndt's police report she writes, "John told me the housekeeper LHP, did have a key to the house. LHP was the only person living in Colorado that had a key to the house."(which we all know was a blatant lie.) It was during this sequence that Linda Arndt asked JR if he had a photo of LHP. The following is from Arndt's official report. I have estimated the the time of the following activities from the police reports and statements of the police that were present that morning:
(8:30am)
"I asked John if he had any photos of LHP in the house. John Ramsey told me he had a roll of film in his camera. Pictures had been taken of Christmas party, held at the Ramsey home on Dec.23. John told me that LHP attended that party. I asked John for the film from that camera. John personally provided me the film from that camera. I gave the roll of 35mm film to Ofc. Barry Weiss. I instructed Ofc. Weiss to have the film developed ASAP. I asked John if he had any paperwork in the house which might contain LHP handwriting. John checked the kitchen area for a note but did not locate any."
So, here you have documented proof that JR went to the kitchen nook area and looked for LHP handwriting. I believe this probably the time that JR moved Patsy's pad from the glass table to the book area.(I can explain possible intent later.)
Around (9:00am), or anytime after 8:30, is when I believe Weiss snapped a routine crime scene photo of the glass table and surrounding area.
There were a lot of moving people and parts that morning. It's possible, that Weiss snapped his photo just minutes after JR was asked for the film in his camera. It's just one of those situations, I think JR was caught out, when he was being questioned about it in his interviews. Unfortunately, Smit was leading the way during this line of questioning.
Arndt stated in her report that after she was briefed by French, that CSI Weiss was still photographing the exterior and interior entry/exit points. Arndt, also asked for pictures of JB, and she gave them to Weiss before he left, to make copies and distribute. She says Weiss was gone by 10:15(this was an approximation on her part and Weiss may have been gone about 45 minutes before that)
(9:30am) Det. Whitson requests handwriting samples from John and Patsy.
Whitson arrived around 9:15. From Whitson's police report, he states that after he arrived he met with Arndt and Patterson. They advised him that "Weiss had already photographed the house", and that "Weiss had taken photos of JonBenét and was making copies."
Before Whitson leaves for his meeting with the FBI at BPD, which sources say, was after 10:00, he states the following:
"I asked Mr. Ramsey for samples of his and his wife's handwriting, just as standard procedure. Mr. Ramsey gave two notepads to Det. Patterson, who in turn gave them to me. I was advised that one of the samples was for Mr. Ramsey, and the other was a sample of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting. I wrote their respective names on the notebooks at the top, but didn't look at the samples or pay any attention to them at the time since I wanted to leave the house as soon as possible for a meeting with the FBI at the BPD."
It's clear the request for handwriting exemplars came last in this sequence of events, and that Weiss had completed his "kidnapping phase" photographs by the time Whitson asked for the exemplars.
As for where JR retrieved the notepads, we have this from the man who actually took them from JR. On CNN's, How it Really Happened: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey, Fred Patterson says this:
"John went to his telephone, which was located in the kitchen, he picked up two pads of paper, and handed them to me, and said "this one is Patsy's, and this one is John's", and I handed them to our Detective."
When you add the fact that in addition to the notepad, cleaning products, and plastic bags were also moved in a short period of time, from when JR inadvertently snapped his photo, to when Weiss photographed that area of the house, you get a picture of someone attempting to tidy up the crime scene, as Weiss made his way through the house.
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I have to correct some details in my previous post. After, a thorough and careful review of known facts and police reports, I have tweaked my timeline of how I believe things happened that morning. The Ramsey's pointed the finger at Hoffman-Pugh from the moment French walked in the door. They relayed their concerns about LHP to French, telling him about comments she had made, how she needed money, had a key, etc...
Shorty after Linda Arndt arrived at (8:10), she received a briefing from French. In French's report he says he related all factors and information to Arndt relating to LHP, and Arndt started to develop background information on LPH. Shortly after, is when Arndt spoke with JR concerning LHP. Quoting directly from Linda Arndt's police report she writes, "John told me the housekeeper LHP, did have a key to the house. LHP was the only person living in Colorado that had a key to the house."(which we all know was a blatant lie.) It was during this sequence that Linda Arndt asked JR if he had a photo of LHP. The following is from Arndt's official report. I have estimated the the time of the following activities from the police reports and statements of the police that were present that morning:
(8:30am)
"I asked John if he had any photos of LHP in the house. John Ramsey told me he had a roll of film in his camera. Pictures had been taken of Christmas party, held at the Ramsey home on Dec.23. John told me that LHP attended that party. I asked John for the film from that camera. John personally provided me the film from that camera. I gave the roll of 35mm film to Ofc. Barry Weiss. I instructed Ofc. Weiss to have the film developed ASAP. I asked John if he had any paperwork in the house which might contain LHP handwriting. John checked the kitchen area for a note but did not locate any."
So, here you have documented proof that JR went to the kitchen nook area and looked for LHP handwriting. I believe this probably the time that JR moved Patsy's pad from the glass table to the book area.(I can explain possible intent later.)
Around (9:00am), or anytime after 8:30, is when I believe Weiss snapped a routine crime scene photo of the glass table and surrounding area.
There were a lot of moving people and parts that morning. It's possible, that Weiss snapped his photo just minutes after JR was asked for the film in his camera. It's just one of those situations, I think JR was caught out, when he was being questioned about it in his interviews. Unfortunately, Smit was leading the way during this line of questioning.
Arndt stated in her report that after she was briefed by French, that CSI Weiss was still photographing the exterior and interior entry/exit points. Arndt, also asked for pictures of JB, and she gave them to Weiss before he left, to make copies and distribute. She says Weiss was gone by 10:15(this was an approximation on her part and Weiss may have been gone about 45 minutes before that)
(9:30am) Det. Whitson requests handwriting samples from John and Patsy.
Whitson arrived around 9:15. From Whitson's police report, he states that after he arrived he met with Arndt and Patterson. They advised him that "Weiss had already photographed the house", and that "Weiss had taken photos of JonBenét and was making copies."
Before Whitson leaves for his meeting with the FBI at BPD, which sources say, was after 10:00, he states the following:
"I asked Mr. Ramsey for samples of his and his wife's handwriting, just as standard procedure. Mr. Ramsey gave two notepads to Det. Patterson, who in turn gave them to me. I was advised that one of the samples was for Mr. Ramsey, and the other was a sample of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting. I wrote their respective names on the notebooks at the top, but didn't look at the samples or pay any attention to them at the time since I wanted to leave the house as soon as possible for a meeting with the FBI at the BPD."
It's clear the request for handwriting exemplars came last in this sequence of events, and that Weiss had completed his "kidnapping phase" photographs by the time Whitson asked for the exemplars.
As for where JR retrieved the notepads, we have this from the man who actually took them from JR. On CNN's, How it Really Happened: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey, Fred Patterson says this:
"John went to his telephone, which was located in the kitchen, he picked up two pads of paper, and handed them to me, and said "this one is Patsy's, and this one is John's", and I handed them to our Detective."
When you add the fact that in addition to the notepad, cleaning products, and plastic bags were also moved in a short period of time, from when JR inadvertently snapped his photo, to when Weiss photographed that area of the house, you get a picture of someone attempting to tidy up the crime scene, as Weiss made his way through the house.
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I found Det. Patterson's police report that was in PW's book and he documents the note pads: from Det. Patterson police report: "Prior to leaving Sgt, Whitson asked that I attempt to obtain handwriting samples from John and Patsy Ramsey. I spoke with John Ramsey about the handwriting samples. He went out of the den to a counter near the bottom of the spiral staircase. He picked up two letter sized pads of white lined paper and handed them to me. He said that one was Patsy's and one was his that they used to write messages on. I identified each pad with the name of the person he identified as the writer and then gave the pads to Sgt. Whitson for later comparison with the ransom note. Sgt. Whitson maintained custody of the pads."
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
Yes, the amount of minor discrepancies in the police reports are amazing. Although, I'm not sure that it is all that uncommon. They had no way of knowing at the time, that 20 years later, sleuths like you and I would be dissecting their accounts of that morning with a super fine-tooth comb. Patterson was less descriptive in his police report, than he was on CNN earlier this year. Nevertheless, it's important to acknowledge that, when asked, JR went to a spot and handed over Patsy's pad and his own pad to Patterson. According to photo 17.7, Patsy's pad was moved to wherever JR went and retrieved it from.
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questfortrue
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Thank you, Cottonstar. Excellent info. Your response reference caused me to read that report from Arndt, which Id only recalled in pieces. And thank you Cranberry for adding in the additional discrepancy in this.
OK, Im wandering around among the details, arranging the chairs on the Titanic now.
Arndt doesnt really specify any timing for when she asked for the film though we can assume it was sometime between her arrival at 8:10 and Whitsons arrival. She did ask for handwriting of LHP and JR looked around the kitchen, but did not come back with anything. Arndt then asked him for any cancelled checks which might have LHPs endorsed signature.
Since its not known when JR took the photo, it still is a hanging question (appearing even more questionable) whether JRs explanation to Smit is truthful. He claimed that by the time Weiss had taken the photo of the table, JR had already taken a photo of the glass table with the pad on it. (In JRs interview he said he got Patsys pad from the glass table.)
In reflecting on this again, it seems Arndt indicates it was when Whitson entered the picture and asked for handwriting samples that JR produced the pad(s) in question. If what JR is then telling Smit in his interview were true, JR is claiming that he took the photo before Weisss photo was taken. IOW, he seems to be claiming that Weiss shot that photo after Whitsons arrival on the scene, roughly 9:15-9:45 am, when he grabbed the pad from the table. Because . . .wait for it . . if you accept JR's explanation he only removed the pad from the glass table at the time of Whitsons request. The claim via Patterson is that JR took the pads from the shelf bench where the phone was.
Your inclusion in red here:
(As for where JR retrieved the notepads, we have this from the man who actually took them from JR. On CNN's, How it Really Happened: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey, Fred Patterson says this:
"John went to his telephone, which was located in the kitchen, he picked up two pads of paper, and handed them to me, and said "this one is Patsy's, and this one is John's", and I handed them to our Detective.")
ST mentions it was a mistake that the BPD did not have a time stamp on their photos, but judging by numbered sequence alone Id guess they started taking early photos on the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floor and then moved downstairs.
Photo of BR bedroom labeled 42.
Photo of glass table, circular staircase labeled 52
Photo of golf clubs labeled 72
Maybe it's simply that JR didn't want folks to know he was altering the crime scene. IDK.
My question isnt really the fact that items were shifted around the golf clubs in the basement for example, perhaps the red shirt in JonBenéts bathroom. But this was a photo without a solid account and, as usual, JR flew by the seat of his pants in explaining. Even his attorney Bryan Morgan, wanted to see the sequence from the film negatives of the photos that JR shot, sensing a warning of something.
At this point, I dont know Ive clarified much, except that this photo remains an enigma and Ill wait for someone elses view on intent. In the meantime Ill join CorallaroC in the seas of confusion about whether we can derive any relevance from the discrepancies.
Cottonstar,
If PR or JR moved the pads with the intent of breaking a link to their original location, why would JR reveal he has knowledge of the pads new location?
JR or PR can claim they were just tidying stuff up? Where was JR when the original photographs of the pads on the table were taken?
Why would JR inject himself into the case by locating the pads? JR must know the pads will directly implicate PR, maybe this is why he is indicating its 'an inside job' so readily?
.
Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
The short answer UK, is that JR was unaware that he shot the photo of Patsy's pad on the glass table. He was caught out.
JR was locked into the police accounts of where he attained the notepads from. Which is more than likely correct. When he was shown photo 17.7 from his camera in his interviews JR was "caught out", because there was no explanation as to why Patsy's pad would be on the glass table, but in the police photos it was not. To me, JR screwed up big-time by snapping this inadvertent picture just moments before the crime scene photo was snapped.
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Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
Thank you, Cottonstar. Excellent info. Your response reference caused me to read that report from Arndt, which Id only recalled in pieces. And thank you Cranberry for adding in the additional discrepancy in this.
OK, Im wandering around among the details, arranging the chairs on the Titanic now.
Arndt doesnt really specify any timing for when she asked for the film though we can assume it was sometime between her arrival at 8:10 and Whitsons arrival. She did ask for handwriting of LHP and JR looked around the kitchen, but did not come back with anything. Arndt then asked him for any cancelled checks which might have LHPs endorsed signature.
Since its not known when JR took the photo, it still is a hanging question (appearing even more questionable) whether JRs explanation to Smit is truthful. He claimed that by the time Weiss had taken the photo of the table, JR had already taken a photo of the glass table with the pad on it. (In JRs interview he said he got Patsys pad from the glass table.)
In reflecting on this again, it seems Arndt indicates it was when Whitson entered the picture and asked for handwriting samples that JR produced the pad(s) in question. If what JR is then telling Smit in his interview were true, JR is claiming that he took the photo before Weisss photo was taken. IOW, he seems to be claiming that Weiss shot that photo after Whitsons arrival on the scene, roughly 9:15-9:45 am, when he grabbed the pad from the table. Because . . .wait for it . . if you accept JR's explanation he only removed the pad from the glass table at the time of Whitsons request. The claim via Patterson is that JR took the pads from the shelf bench where the phone was.
Your inclusion in red here:
(As for where JR retrieved the notepads, we have this from the man who actually took them from JR. On CNN's, How it Really Happened: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey, Fred Patterson says this:
"John went to his telephone, which was located in the kitchen, he picked up two pads of paper, and handed them to me, and said "this one is Patsy's, and this one is John's", and I handed them to our Detective.")
ST mentions it was a mistake that the BPD did not have a time stamp on their photos, but judging by numbered sequence alone Id guess they started taking early photos on the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floor and then moved downstairs.
Photo of BR bedroom labeled 42.
Photo of glass table, circular staircase labeled 52
Photo of golf clubs labeled 72
Maybe it's simply that JR didn't want folks to know he was altering the crime scene. IDK.
My question isnt really the fact that items were shifted around the golf clubs in the basement for example, perhaps the red shirt in JonBenéts bathroom. But this was a photo without a solid account and, as usual, JR flew by the seat of his pants in explaining. Even his attorney Bryan Morgan, wanted to see the sequence from the film negatives of the photos that JR shot, sensing a warning of something.
At this point, I dont know Ive clarified much, except that this photo remains an enigma and Ill wait for someone elses view on intent. In the meantime Ill join CorallaroC in the seas of confusion about whether we can derive any relevance from the discrepancies.
If Whitson's report is somewhat accurate, when he arrived at 9:15, Weiss had already finished taking the morning photographs. Since, Arndt asked JR for the film in his camera, and this is purportedly when he snapped off a few inadvertent pics which later revealed the notepad was on the glass table, which was taken before Weiss took his photo, is why I believe the 8:30-8:40 time stamp for this occurrence. If, Weiss was gone by 9:15(when Whitson arrived), this means Weiss had to have taken his photo between 8:45-9:05ish.
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Cottonstar
Case Analyst | Expert in Staged Crimes
Thank you, Cottonstar. Excellent info. Your response reference caused me to read that report from Arndt, which Id only recalled in pieces. And thank you Cranberry for adding in the additional discrepancy in this.
OK, Im wandering around among the details, arranging the chairs on the Titanic now.
Arndt doesnt really specify any timing for when she asked for the film though we can assume it was sometime between her arrival at 8:10 and Whitsons arrival. She did ask for handwriting of LHP and JR looked around the kitchen, but did not come back with anything. Arndt then asked him for any cancelled checks which might have LHPs endorsed signature.
Since its not known when JR took the photo, it still is a hanging question (appearing even more questionable) whether JRs explanation to Smit is truthful. He claimed that by the time Weiss had taken the photo of the table, JR had already taken a photo of the glass table with the pad on it. (In JRs interview he said he got Patsys pad from the glass table.)
In reflecting on this again, it seems Arndt indicates it was when Whitson entered the picture and asked for handwriting samples that JR produced the pad(s) in question. If what JR is then telling Smit in his interview were true, JR is claiming that he took the photo before Weisss photo was taken. IOW, he seems to be claiming that Weiss shot that photo after Whitsons arrival on the scene, roughly 9:15-9:45 am, when he grabbed the pad from the table. Because . . .wait for it . . if you accept JR's explanation he only removed the pad from the glass table at the time of Whitsons request. The claim via Patterson is that JR took the pads from the shelf bench where the phone was.
Your inclusion in red here:
(As for where JR retrieved the notepads, we have this from the man who actually took them from JR. On CNN's, How it Really Happened: Who killed JonBenét Ramsey, Fred Patterson says this:
"John went to his telephone, which was located in the kitchen, he picked up two pads of paper, and handed them to me, and said "this one is Patsy's, and this one is John's", and I handed them to our Detective.")
ST mentions it was a mistake that the BPD did not have a time stamp on their photos, but judging by numbered sequence alone Id guess they started taking early photos on the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] floor and then moved downstairs.
Photo of BR bedroom labeled 42.
Photo of glass table, circular staircase labeled 52
Photo of golf clubs labeled 72
Maybe it's simply that JR didn't want folks to know he was altering the crime scene. IDK.
My question isnt really the fact that items were shifted around the golf clubs in the basement for example, perhaps the red shirt in JonBenéts bathroom. But this was a photo without a solid account and, as usual, JR flew by the seat of his pants in explaining. Even his attorney Bryan Morgan, wanted to see the sequence from the film negatives of the photos that JR shot, sensing a warning of something.
At this point, I dont know Ive clarified much, except that this photo remains an enigma and Ill wait for someone elses view on intent. In the meantime Ill join CorallaroC in the seas of confusion about whether we can derive any relevance from the discrepancies.
As for intent. Why would JR stage the ransom note pad on the glass table before police arrived that morning? I would surmise that, just like JonBenet's body, he wanted someone else to discover it. I think perhaps, leaving the notepad on the glass table, he would hope, or believe someone, anyone, would pick it up and start thumbing through it. Perhaps, it then gets passed around, and by the time someone notices the beginning of a "practice note" in the pad, dozens of different people's fingerprints are all over the pad, and the practice note. Bingo! Reasonable doubt.
Imagine this scenario. Arndt arrives at 8:10 and brings back a copy of the ransom note for everyone at the house to look at and offer opinions. Imagine, one of the friends then noticing that the ransom note is on the same type of paper as this notepad they see out in the open on the glass table! They grab it, and pass it around, and then someone notices the "Mr. and Mrs. I" on one of the pages, and by the time LE determines the notepad was important, it is compromised, much like other evidence in the house that day.
Remember, the practice note was left in the notepad on purpose. It was left out on purpose. It was given to Patterson on purpose. If not, the Ramsey's would have not only destroyed that pad, but surely wouldn't have left the practice note in there on purpose.
The level of stagecraft was amazing.
Imagine the luck the Rams would of had, if Fleet White had been the one to pick up the pad and thumb through it.
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Cottonstar,
Sure but who moved the pads and why? What you outline suggests JR moved the pads from the glass table, do you think this was part of the R's crime-scene staging?
.
Yes at that moment JR readily gave up the notepad, there was no use denying it. And it had Patsy written all over it.
archieil
On Time Out
Were pads any different?
Except for the name on it?
Except for the name on it?
CorallaroC
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Cottonstar, you wrote just what I had been thinking, the WHAT IF Fleet White had grabbed one of the pads before it was taken as evidence. Remember how the R's mentioned several times that FW was writing notes right away while the friends were gathered with PR in the sunroom? wow, what sort of diabolical person would try to falsely implicate FW? answer: a desperate one
archieil,
Yeah, good question. Did JR have to check the writing, i.e. the RN Drafts, yikes? Why did JR turn over the pads so readily, why not go upstairs and fetch some of Patsy's old letters, notes, etc?
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questfortrue
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No fingerprints on the pad. Had to be Teflon-man who moved it.
Why? Diabolically trying to implicate someone else? Could be. But FW or PW didn't take the bait. At that hour they all were waiting for the kidnapper call.
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