Was Burke Involved? #6

Tadpole12

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JK, FF, page 317, photo 148,
Lego System box and wrapped presents in wine cellar, photo

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/8b458b/pineapple_or_presents_or/

Photo 27 - Torn Christmas presents in the Wine Cellar next to the body of JonBenét. The wrapping on
these presents are the same as those depicted in photographs of JonBenét and Burke in front of their
Christmas tree on the morning of December 25, 1996. Source: Boulder PD Case File /
ay.
Photo 27 - Torn Christmas presents in the Wine Cellar next to the body of JonBenét. The wrapping on
these presents are the same as those depicted in photographs of JonBenét and Burke in front of their
Christmas tree on the morning of December 25, 1996. Source: Boulder PD Case File /
 
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Tadpole12

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^ JK didn't reply to the question of the title of the adult Dr. Seuss book,
but did comment wrt JAR's twitter,
"I'm aware that he has an account but I haven't seen it" - JK


wrt feces, candy box and pj bottoms, observations were documented in police reports :

Question "From u/AdequateSizeAttache:

Chief Kolar, there is a small but vocal contingent of online followers of the Ramsey case that is doubtful about the veracity of some of the feces-related evidence presented in your book -- namely, the feces-smeared candy box and larger-sized boys’ pajama bottoms that contained feces. From what I gather, this is due to the scarcity of detail surrounding these items plus their not having been physically collected and/or tested.

How would you address these feces-evidence skeptics?

He didn't have time to reply to this, but since it was an advanced question I can reply with the answer he provided in advance"

JK: "I reviewed police reports that documented the observation of these items. So, this was not a matter of speculation or fabrication. As items already belonging in the residence, it was not likely that this physical evidence would have been left by an intruder, or help to identify the perpetrator(s).

I believed this was evidence of behavioral aspects possibly involved as a part of the motivation for the events that took place that evening. Again, a piece of the puzzle but a matter of theoretical speculation."

JK, FF, page 370, 371

"There were other police reports in the files that documented what I
thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material.
They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.
Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also

observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made
during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search
warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body."
 
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fr brown

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JK, FF page 341, 342

"There were other police reports in the files that documented what I
thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material.
They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.
Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also

observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made
during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search
warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body."

Sure about those page numbers?
 

Tadpole12

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Additional advance questions and answers from James Kolar's AMAA:

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRa...dditional_advance_questions_and_answers_from/

"2) My attorney advises that releasing an updated edition of Foreign Faction would potentially open me up to another lawsuit. The window for bringing a suit had expired within a certain time frame after the public release of the book in 2012, but that would change if I released an updated edition.

I have been advised that reporting independently on new, public information that has come to light since the release of my book provides less exposure to litigation. So, I’m attempting to pull that new information together into one location so that people have a source to go to to review developments that have become publicly available since the release of my work." - JK

***

"I believe the "island of privacy" statement by the attorney referred to Burke's psychiatric records. Although his treatment was referenced in parent interviews, none of those records were provided to the police or DA's office that I could find.

They could very well pertain to adult psychiatric treatment as well, but I’m not certain about that." - JK
 
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UKGuy

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"2) My attorney advises that releasing an updated edition of Foreign Faction would potentially open me up to another lawsuit. The window for bringing a suit had expired within a certain time frame after the public release of the book in 2012, but that would change if I released an updated edition.

I have been advised that reporting independently on new, public information that has come to light since the release of my book provides less exposure to litigation. So, I’m attempting to pull that new information together into one location so that people have a source to go to to review developments that have become publicly available since the release of my work." - JK

***

"I believe the "island of privacy" statement by the attorney referred to Burke's psychiatric records. Although his treatment was referenced in parent interviews, none of those records were provided to the police or DA's office that I could find.

They could very well pertain to adult psychiatric treatment as well, but I’m not certain about that." - JK

Tadpole12,
You left this revealing exchange out:
From u/SafeReplacement1923:
3. Is there any evidence not known to the public that could further support your hypothesis?

Chief Kolar's answer:
3) Sorry, can’t answer that.
BBM

Yikes, of course there is evidence. Answering No would tell everyone not to bother purchasing his book as it would lack any, self-confessed, credibility.

"I believe the "island of privacy" statement by the attorney referred to Burke's psychiatric records.
Yet another BDI marker, how many more do we need? FYI BR's psychiatrist is out there on the internet linked to the case with his full name for public viewing, needs some digging though.

You can tell Kolar is itching to break the case open, but he has to watch his back in case LW strikes.
 

UKGuy

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JK, FF, page 317, photo 148,
Lego System box and wrapped presents in wine cellar, photo

https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenet/comments/8b458b/pineapple_or_presents_or/

Photo 27 - Torn Christmas presents in the Wine Cellar next to the body of JonBenét. The wrapping on
these presents are the same as those depicted in photographs of JonBenét and Burke in front of their
Christmas tree on the morning of December 25, 1996. Source: Boulder PD Case File /
ay.
Photo 27 - Torn Christmas presents in the Wine Cellar next to the body of JonBenét. The wrapping on
these presents are the same as those depicted in photographs of JonBenét and Burke in front of their
Christmas tree on the morning of December 25, 1996. Source: Boulder PD Case File /

Tadpole12,
Burke says he returned back downstairs to play with another toy, so could it be the Lego System box seen in the wine-cellar photograph?

Why was JonBenet's white bedroom blanket lying on the wine-cellar floor, i.e. did the intruder think a blanket was mandatory?

Now why are there partially opened gifts lying on the wine-cellar floor?

Why was JonBenet's bloodstained pink barbie nightgown left on the wine-cellar floor?

What is Burke's Lego System gift doing in the wine-cellar, was it opened, was it ever played with?

Could it be they have all just been dumped in to the wine-cellar by the parents along with the cover story we are now familiar with?

Remember that LHP and her family were all over the wine-cellar removing stuff just prior to Christmas and they never reported seeing any wrapped Christmas gifts, never mind a Lego System Box.

.
 

UKGuy

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Am watching the George Floyd Trial and witness Donald Williams testifies that there are various choke holds.

e.g. Air Choke and Blood Choke.

A properly applied Air Choke can allow you to breathe, whereas a Blood Choke held for too long can restrict the blood flow leading to a loss of consiousness.

Could JonBenet have been the victim of a sustained Blood Choke?

.
 

otg

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Am watching the George Floyd Trial and witness Donald Williams testifies that there are various choke holds.

e.g. Air Choke and Blood Choke.

A properly applied Air Choke can allow you to breathe, whereas a Blood Choke held for too long can restrict the blood flow leading to a loss of consiousness.

Could JonBenet have been the victim of a sustained Blood Choke?

.
That's effectually what the ligature did. It didn't choke her in the sense of shutting off her being able to breathe. Depending on how tight the ligature is, it will restrict or shut off the blood flow either to or from her brain (or both).

It takes from 6 to 12 pounds of pressure to shut off the flow of blood to the brain through arteries. But it only takes only 3 pounds of pressure to block the flow of blood from the brain through the veins. However to compress the esophageal airway and asphyxiate a person, it takes up to 33 pounds of pressure to completely block the air.
 

UKGuy

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That's effectually what the ligature did. It didn't choke her in the sense of shutting off her being able to breathe. Depending on how tight the ligature is, it will restrict or shut off the blood flow either to or from her brain (or both).

It takes from 6 to 12 pounds of pressure to shut off the flow of blood to the brain through arteries. But it only takes only 3 pounds of pressure to block the flow of blood from the brain through the veins. However to compress the esophageal airway and asphyxiate a person, it takes up to 33 pounds of pressure to completely block the air.

otg,
Thanks, interesting detail on the poundage.

Some think that the ligature device was applied with JonBenet on her front with possibly the assailants foot on her back?

Would this not reach the 33lbs pressure either back or front?

I've always assumed some variant of a blood choke was applied but not with any technical knowledge, simply that of a restraint hold?

.
 

otg

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otg,
Thanks, interesting detail on the poundage.

Some think that the ligature device was applied with JonBenet on her front with possibly the assailants foot on her back?
Hey, UKG. Sorry to take so long to reply.

There are almost an unlimited number of theories that can be imagined as to how it might have happened. The question would be whether or not any one of those scenarios fits with all the known evidence. And of course, you can assume there is other evidence we are not aware of.

Would this not reach the 33lbs pressure either back or front?
The 33 lbs is not really that difficult to achieve. Even less difficult is the amount of pressure to restrict blood flow. When the pressure is applied manually, the difficulty is in directing the pressure to the exact location to restrict either the air or the blood; and in the case of blood to the brain, the pressure has to be applied on both sides of the neck since there are veins and arteries on both sides. (I should point out here that I'm not speaking from experience – I've never strangled or choked anyone.)

In your scenario (foot on her back) the restriction is still being caused by the ligature. The only thing the foot does is hold the victim stationary while the ligature is pulled and tightened. The circumferential pressure is still from the ligature, not the weight of the assailant. OTOH, to shut off airflow in the neck (say with a foot either on the back or on the front of the neck) the pressure required to shut off air would probably also damage the thyroid cartilage.

I've always assumed some variant of a blood choke was applied but not with any technical knowledge, simply that of a restraint hold?

.
I think you pretty much have to have some knowledge of what you're doing to apply a choke hold that shuts off the blood. It's not complicated or difficult, but if a person has the knowledge of how to do it, they must also know its purpose and what the result can be.

Since you're comparing things in this case to the George Floyd case, yes, the way he was being restrained could very easily (and probably did) shut off the blood to his brain causing unconsciousness. From what it appears on the videos I've seen, the cop continued applying his weight even after Floyd became motionless (unconscious). If you notice also, while his knee is on his neck, the cop's feet are not supporting his weight because of the angle they are to the ground. So that means his full body weight is all directed to the knee on Mr. Floyd's neck. Notice also that earlier on he seemed to be trying to roll over enough to breathe better. Breathing doesn't have to be restricted in the neck. It can also be restricted by compression on the chest (mechanical asphyxia). This is also known as “burking.”

You might find this document interesting/useful:
http://www.markwynn.com/wp-content/uploads/death-by-strangulation.pdf
 

UKGuy

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Hey, UKG. Sorry to take so long to reply.

There are almost an unlimited number of theories that can be imagined as to how it might have happened. The question would be whether or not any one of those scenarios fits with all the known evidence. And of course, you can assume there is other evidence we are not aware of.


The 33 lbs is not really that difficult to achieve. Even less difficult is the amount of pressure to restrict blood flow. When the pressure is applied manually, the difficulty is in directing the pressure to the exact location to restrict either the air or the blood; and in the case of blood to the brain, the pressure has to be applied on both sides of the neck since there are veins and arteries on both sides. (I should point out here that I'm not speaking from experience – I've never strangled or choked anyone.)

In your scenario (foot on her back) the restriction is still being caused by the ligature. The only thing the foot does is hold the victim stationary while the ligature is pulled and tightened. The circumferential pressure is still from the ligature, not the weight of the assailant. OTOH, to shut off airflow in the neck (say with a foot either on the back or on the front of the neck) the pressure required to shut off air would probably also damage the thyroid cartilage.


I think you pretty much have to have some knowledge of what you're doing to apply a choke hold that shuts off the blood. It's not complicated or difficult, but if a person has the knowledge of how to do it, they must also know its purpose and what the result can be.

Since you're comparing things in this case to the George Floyd case, yes, the way he was being restrained could very easily (and probably did) shut off the blood to his brain causing unconsciousness. From what it appears on the videos I've seen, the cop continued applying his weight even after Floyd became motionless (unconscious). If you notice also, while his knee is on his neck, the cop's feet are not supporting his weight because of the angle they are to the ground. So that means his full body weight is all directed to the knee on Mr. Floyd's neck. Notice also that earlier on he seemed to be trying to roll over enough to breathe better. Breathing doesn't have to be restricted in the neck. It can also be restricted by compression on the chest (mechanical asphyxia). This is also known as “burking.”

You might find this document interesting/useful:
http://www.markwynn.com/wp-content/uploads/death-by-strangulation.pdf

otg,
Thanks for the Mark Wynn pdf. It has some useful information.

In the George Floyd case the Pulmonary Expert Witness testified that the knee pressure reduced the blood to George Floyd's brain resulting in a heart attack.

For those that promoted the JonBenet Hanging Theory, they will like this by Mark Wynn:
Leave the body hang suspended by the ligature for a few hours, and a very dramatic furrow and ligature abrasion will develop post-mortem.

Although as you suggest there might be thousands of scenarios, realistically I reckon there are only two:

1. Head blow, followed up at a later point with a ligature asphyxiation.

2. Blood Choke, with Head blow applied as staging when this fails, i.e. leaving no visible sign of death the ligature asphyxiation is then enacted.

Mark Wynn's remarks:
Ultimately, a medical opinion of strangulation as the mechanism of neck injury will be based on a complete examination of the patient’s neck, either at autopsy or by radiography, to detect superficial and deep injuries fitting a pattern that supports the diagnosis.
highlight a Blood Choke might leave no obvious signs of injury. Did Coroner Meyer use radiography?

Yes, one of the public unknowns is: was JonBenet effectively in a sustained coma for a prolonged period of time following the initial restraining force, e.g. Head blow, or Blood choke hold?

Mark Wynn's remarks that separate parts of the brain react in different ways to oxygen deprivation.

Also if at the end of the day we conclude JonBenet was whacked on the head and ligature asphyxiated then surely Coroner Meyer's GJ testimony regarding JonBenet's internal injuries must be critical in deciding whether the case is a sexual assault gone wrong or one of the Ramsey's lashing out at JonBenet in anger?

.
 

Sharonbeeker

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I think I heard that Burke was in the boy scouts. He could have learned to use different types of rope knots right? One possibility might be: could Burke have been sexually assaulted in the camp (as so much unreported pedophilia was going on in the churches and in boys scout camps). Could this have then carried over to Jon Benet being previously sexually molested by Burke unknown to the parents? Burke to this day shows underdeveloped social, emotional, and language skills for his age. I think he had built up anger, resentment, and jealousy toward his sister's attention and gifts that xmas, and the taking of his pineapple dessert put him over the top. Notice the pineapple cereal was like almost full. Did something distract Burke away from even eating his dessert?
I think on the 911 call, when Burke said "what Did you find?" I think they were keeping Burke out of the loop of their cover up for Burke's crime. The father showed anger toward Burke in his response, keeping him aloof. If you just had a kidnapping and another sibling is scared to death of what is going on, would a parent tell the child they are ignoring him? Or would you try to reassure him that he's not in any danger. Who cold shoulders their child like this in a time of crises?
Furthermore, Patsy:
1. Why would Patsy hang up the 911 phone call to her only lifeline of help?
2. Why call the police when the ransom said they would kill JB if she contacted them?
3. Why not mention to 911 that they need to be on the down low as the kidnapper threatened to kill JB?
4. Why invite every neighbor and friend over within five minutes bringing attention to yourself when the ransom note warned they would kill Jon Benet if they did anything stupid?
5. Why invite people in your house when you don't even know if the killer could still be in there? That house was HUGE!
Conclusion: that killer came from inside that home, and the rest of the family were accomplices.
 

Swirlz

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Burke to this day shows underdeveloped social, emotional, and language skills for his age.

He appeared once on a daytime television talk show. He spoke of what it was like to grow up in the public eye and of his memories of the funeral and of watching his parents grieve.

Did something distract Burke away from even eating his dessert?

That they had to leave for the party. It was probably set out before they left the house. Most people don't eat right after they've gotten back from a dinner party.

The father showed anger toward Burke in his response,

No he didn't. If he'd thought Burke was the killer he'd be hurling expletives and threatening to clobber the little creep.


1. Why would Patsy hang up the 911 phone call to her only lifeline of help?

Patsy hung up after the operator started asking a lot of detailed questions about the ransom note.

2. Why call the police when the ransom said they would kill JB if she contacted them?

Patsy didn't have to worry about anyone killing JB because Patsy knew JB was dead and decomposing in the basement.

3. Why not mention to 911 that they need to be on the down low as the kidnapper threatened to kill JB?

Because no kidnapper threatened to kill JB.

4. Why invite every neighbor and friend over within five minutes bringing attention to yourself when the ransom note warned they would kill Jon Benet if they did anything stupid?

Patsy wanted her friends with her either to serve as a buffer between herself and John or to create a distraction for the police so John could sneak the body out of the house.

5. Why invite people in your house when you don't even know if the killer could still be in there? That house was HUGE!

See above.

Conclusion: that killer came from inside that home, and the rest of the family were accomplices.

I agree that the killer came from inside the home. I don't think Burke, at age 9, was an accomplice.
 

Diogeneszenodude

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I think we all know. If the info is true from witnesses and professionals. I´m not gonna say it though ;)
 

Diogeneszenodude

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Welcome to thread # 5 of "Was Burke Involved?"

It will be interesting to read how many of you have changed your opinion of Burke after watching two out of the three interviews with Burke and Dr. Phil.

What a lot of people came away with (myself included) is how in the world could Lin Wood or John Ramsey allow Burke to be interviewed?

Burke is an adult so perhaps there was nothing they could do to stop him. However, I got the impression that Burke would rather be anywhere else in the world than with Dr. Phil answering questions.

Continue posting and thank you for participating.

Tricia

Was Burke Involved ? # 1


Was Burke Involved ? # 2

Was Burke Involved? # 3

Was Burke Involved? # 4

Thread #5
There is little question who did it. I have watched a lot of material on this.
 

elannia

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It is interesting to note that during his interview with the psychologist 2 weeks after the murder he said he asked JR where he found the body... and his dad said in the basement.


So did he leave her in the basement and the parents found her early that morning, PR says in a statement with the police she screams and she hears JR scream when he comes up from the basement so when did they actually find her body?
BR had no remorse during that interview and was just “going on with his life”

Just a very creepy interview IMO
 

kelleypearson

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It recently occurred to me that when Burke gave his interview on the Dr. Phil show, he recalled Jonbenet’s “eye looking droopy.” I find that an interesting statement considering morticians use eye caps, tissue builder or embalming fluid to correct any eye deformities and restore the natural curvature of the eye. It makes me wonder if he was subconsciously recalling seeing Jonbenet dead (and with a droopy eye,) but not at her funeral. I highly doubt Patsy would have allowed an open casket funeral if Jonbenet had an obvious facial deformity.
 

Laughing

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JonBenet Ramsey

There is a forum section about the circumstances of Miss Ramsey's death. Have you checked there?

IIRC there is a thread about Burke.

Reporting my post to ask if a Moderator might move the post into an active thread.
 
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