Was Burke Involved? #6

icedtea4me

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Swirlz

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During the interview with Dr. Bernhard, Burke first described a knife attack which didn't happen. It's impossible that he didn't ever overhear anyone talk about what happened.
 

UKGuy

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Why would it have been absolutely, positively 100% impossible for Burke to have overheard his mom and/or dad say something that night? Were you unaware that voices carry?



Voices carry.

icedtea4me,

How do you know Patsy and John talked in detail about the factors that led to JonBenet's death?

JonBenet's head injury was only revealed at autopsy and only made public at a much later date.

Similarly for her asphyxiation via the ligature. Yet Burke and Doug Stine were debating whether JonBenet had been ligature or manually strangled?

Of course if the case is BDI then Burke would be unaware that JonBenet had been ligature asphyxiated !

You appear to have misunderstood my post completely, as the question is not what is the probability that Burke can hear the fridge door opening from his bedroom, or that his audio abilities are Bat like and extend all the way down to the basement.

It is that Burke knows these then not in the public domain facts precisely because he was present when JonBenet was assaulted.

The DA, in any imaginary court case, would suggest to the jury the reason Burke never heard his parents discussing the lurid details surrounding JonBenet's death is because he was otherwise engaged in JonBenet's bedroom and not his own bedroom.

.
 

OldBackstop

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Author Paula Woodward, We Have Your Daughter says in the below interview that the Boulder County Social Services Child Protection team announced, after their analysis and interview of Burke in 1997, that Burke did not know who killed JonBenet.

Does anyone know where those docs can be found?

Here is the interview, it is 1:05 in . :

 

UKGuy

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Author Paula Woodward, We Have Your Daughter says in the below interview that the Boulder County Social Services Child Protection team announced, after their analysis and interview of Burke in 1997, that Burke did not know who killed JonBenet.

Does anyone know where those docs can be found?

Here is the interview, it is 1:05 in . :


OldBackstop,
Being case related the docs will have been sealed from public distribution.

Then again Burke might be telling the truth: he does not know who killed JonBenet as he likely did not ligature asphyxiate JonBenet?

This is what Doug Stine and Burke were debating, but Burke appears to have known how JonBenet was asphyxiated, despite the parents claiming they never discussed the case with Burke, and that JonBenet's actual Cause Of Death as per the Autopsy Report was released at a later date.

So where does Burke strength of conviction come from?

This simply might represent a juvenile debate or a clue that Burke Ramsey mistakenly thought he knew the manner of JonBenet's death?

.
 

icedtea4me

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icedtea4me,

How do you know Patsy and John talked in detail about the factors that led to JonBenet's death?
"

*heavy sigh*

I'm sure you would've needed for John and Patsy to have talked in detail about what happened, but Burke was smart enough to only need to hear a few words to know what went down.


Similarly for her asphyxiation via the ligature. Yet Burke and Doug Stine were debating whether JonBenet had been ligature or manually strangled?

Of course if the case is BDI then Burke would be unaware that JonBenet had been ligature asphyxiated !

He more than likely overheard Patsy whispering "I need cord. I need cord" as she looked for cord on the 2nd floor.

You appear to have misunderstood my post completely, as the question is not what is the probability that Burke can hear the fridge door opening from his bedroom, or that his audio abilities are Bat like and extend all the way down to the basement.<snip>

Burke's bedroom is only one flight up from the entrance down to the basement.

<modsnip>
 
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OldBackstop

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OldBackstop,
Being case related the docs will have been sealed from public distribution.

Then again Burke might be telling the truth: he does not know who killed JonBenet as he likely did not ligature asphyxiate JonBenet?

This is what Doug Stine and Burke were debating, but Burke appears to have known how JonBenet was asphyxiated, despite the parents claiming they never discussed the case with Burke, and that JonBenet's actual Cause Of Death as per the Autopsy Report was released at a later date.

So where does Burke strength of conviction come from?

This simply might represent a juvenile debate or a clue that Burke Ramsey mistakenly thought he knew the manner of JonBenet's death?

.

You are playing a game of semantic twister far beyond what a nine year old could carry off. This wasn't Bill Clinton parsing what the definition of "is" is or some CEO with a lawyer whispering in his ear. It was a nine year old who first said his sister was stabbed. From what I saw with Dr. Phil, I don't think Burke at nine could organize an egg on toast never mind handle a one-on-one interrogation about a murder he committed two weeks before.

Do you?
 

proust20

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During the interview, BR told Dr. B that someone had a knife and took JB down the stairs. This is a plausible scenario. The Swiss Army knife was found in the basement. BR used that knife frequently, if not daily. If he had mislaid it, he'd look for it. Wouldn't he want to take it with him to Charlevoix? I don't remember just now if BR did say to Dr. B that JB had been stabbed? He did demonstrate vividly how JB was whacked on the skull. The presence of the knife in the WC and the knowledge of the head blow are more than coincidence. He also said to her that he had a secret that he couldn't tell because then it wouldn't be a secret. This shows a bent for word games.

Acting on impulse, as in the murder, is irrational. What a person who has already lost control should do next is difficult to predict. Transiting from the irrational back to sanity is not done by flicking a switch. Beside dealing with the enormity of the murder, there is the mounting pressure of the unavoidable deadline of the 7AM flight. - Use good common sense. - The disorder of the household (despite a housekeeper) seems like projection. The bizarre staging of the CS and the crime itself could hold significance to a disordered mind? With PR's dramatic personality, she could have been saying anything if involved in violent events. JR would hear her. "Listen carefully!". BR admitted that he heard his mom "going psycho" downstairs. However, that could be true for any time that AM. Burke had to leave the house ASAP. The developing scenario had written him out for one reason or another. This was one of the R's most cunning moves. The result of legal advice? If the Rs know from the outset that BR cannot be charged, it's one more card in their hands.

The full interviews of the two psychologists with BR have not been released. Did Dr. B get more about BR's secret than is known?
 
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Swirlz

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The knife:

A) Wasn't in the wine cellar.

and

B) Had been hidden from Burke although Patsy knew where it was.
 

UKGuy

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You are playing a game of semantic twister far beyond what a nine year old could carry off. This wasn't Bill Clinton parsing what the definition of "is" is or some CEO with a lawyer whispering in his ear. It was a nine year old who first said his sister was stabbed. From what I saw with Dr. Phil, I don't think Burke at nine could organize an egg on toast never mind handle a one-on-one interrogation about a murder he committed two weeks before.

Do you?

OldBackstop,
You appear to have made your mind up, semantic twisting and parsing, interpreting, however you term it, is absolutely no substitute for evidence.

It was a nine year old who first said his sister was stabbed.
No, read my posts they contain verbatim quotes, not mere opinion. Doug Stines mother overheard Burke Ramsey and Doug debating how JonBenet had been asphyxiated, long before his medical interview.


BR seemed to handle his various interviews with the investigators competently.

.
 

UKGuy

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Yes, he did, but John Bennett "I was in the Boy Scouts and the Navy, but I don't know anything about knots" Ramsey did not.

http://www.acandyrose.com/12122001Depo-JohnRamsey.htm

icedtea4me,
Sure, so is he simply being defensive as he knows he will be Prime Suspect, or is he really JonBenet's killer and a master crime-scene stager to boot?

John is caught out on multiple interviews with questions that yield inconsistent answers, e.g. He read a book to JonBenet on returning from the whites, etc.

Was reminded of John's claim about climbing in the through the basement window the past summer, with Burke stating he was present at the front door awaiting entry.

So why did John need Lou Smit to stage his entry via the basement window? Surely John and Burke had already demonstrated this was possible?

.
 

UKGuy

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During the interview, BR told Dr. B that someone had a knife and took JB down the stairs. This is a plausible scenario. The Swiss Army knife was found in the basement. BR used that knife frequently, if not daily. If he had mislaid it, he'd look for it. Wouldn't he want to take it with him to Charlevoix? I don't remember just now if BR did say to Dr. B that JB had been stabbed? He did demonstrate vividly how JB was whacked on the skull. The presence of the knife in the WC and the knowledge of the head blow are more than coincidence. He also said to her that he had a secret that he couldn't tell because then it wouldn't be a secret. This shows a bent for word games.

Acting on impulse, as in the murder, is irrational. What a person who has already lost control should do next is difficult to predict. Transiting from the irrational back to sanity is not done by flicking a switch. Beside dealing with the enormity of the murder, there is the mounting pressure of the unavoidable deadline of the 7AM flight. - Use good common sense. - The disorder of the household (despite a housekeeper) seems like projection. The bizarre staging of the CS and the crime itself could hold significance to a disordered mind? With PR's dramatic personality, she could have been saying anything if involved in violent events. JR would hear her. "Listen carefully!". BR admitted that he heard his mom "going psycho" downstairs. However, that could be true for any time that AM. Burke had to leave the house ASAP. The developing scenario had written him out for one reason or another. This was one of the R's most cunning moves. The result of legal advice? If the Rs know from the outset that BR cannot be charged, it's one more card in their hands.

The full interviews of the two psychologists with BR have not been released. Did Dr. B get more about BR's secret than is known?

proust20,
Burke had to leave the house ASAP. The developing scenario had written him out for one reason or another. This was one of the R's most cunning moves. The result of legal advice? If the Rs know from the outset that BR cannot be charged, it's one more card in their hands.
If the R's know in advance that BR cannot be charged then, assuming the case is PDI or JDI, then implicating Burke in the staging patently deflects blame?

Burke Ramsey possessed more than one or two knives he had a number of them, one was notable as his mother purchased it for him.

Think about it: Patsy does not need Burke's knives to cut anything as she has been in the basement in recent days parcelling Christmas gifts, e.g. cutting tape and fixing addressee cards, etc. So she will have had scissors available.

Burke's knife present in the basement should not be there, just as his touch-dna should really not be on a bloodstained dressing gown left in the wine-cellar, not a smoking gun, but not a good look either.

He did demonstrate vividly how JB was whacked on the skull.
This is definitely something BR should know nothing about, as it was only discovered at autopsy, then sealed until some judge ordered the release of the complete unredacted autopsy report.

Also I reckon the technical details were beyond BR's comprehension, i.e. the interplay of the asphyxiation and low oxygen levels due to the subjural head injury, etc.

.
 

proust20

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According to JR's first version of the broken window, it was during a summer night while the family was at Charlevoix. This is a bumbling, lovable sit-com dad who just can't manage without Mom. BR's being around is a later version. If it didn't happen when the family was in MI, then when? Part of JR's timeline being that he had left the window unrepaired for quite awhile. This sort of muddling is a typical ploy which was acquired early on. The Swiss Army knife induced a spell of Ramnesia for Patsy. Did she really buy it in Switzerland?

The fracture pattern on JB's skull allows for the possibility that she was prone when struck.
 
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UKGuy

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According to JR's first version of the broken window, it was during a summer night while the family was at Charlevoix. This is a bumbling, lovable sit-com dad who just can't manage without Mom. BR's being around is a later version. If it didn't happen when the family was in MI, then when? Part of JR's timeline being that he had left the window unrepaired for quite awhile. This sort of muddling is a typical ploy which was acquired early on. The Swiss Army knife induced a spell of Ramnesia for Patsy. Did she really buy it in Switzerland?

The fracture pattern on JB's skull allows for the possibility that she was prone when struck.

proust20,
BR's knives are important as they are backup evidence he had been in the basement, unless you want to say the parents set him up?

Patsy just does not want to state on the record I bought that for Burke. Seems to me to be a strange gift to buy your son, how about a cute swiss wrist watch, Burke liked watches with all the extra functions, he was geeky in that direction.

Well if I had a chapter to put in a book about JonBenet it might catalog how JR went from breaking and climbing in the window to Lou Smit climbing in the window along with PR releases to the media.

The emphasis would highlight how JR has a convenient explanation for many items found in the basement, e.g. broken window, samsonite suitcase, Partially Unwrapped Gifts in the wine-cellar, etc.

The point being surely he is not covering himself as the staging would not be so inept and amateurish to begin with?

The fracture pattern on JB's skull allows for the possibility that she was prone when struck.
Yes, it might simply represent a first attempt at mercy killing JonBenet which fails, so Patsy has to apply the ligature and the knotting to finish off poor JonBenet?

Alternatively the head injury formed part of the initial assault or it was an attempt at after the fact staging by JonBenet's assailant?

The head injury is odd as it usually the MO of Serial Killers and Sexual Psychopaths, Ted Bundy is a good example, e.g. his use of a plaster cast.

.
 

icedtea4me

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<snip>Think about it: Patsy does not need Burke's knives to cut anything as she has been in the basement in recent days parcelling Christmas gifts, e.g. cutting tape and fixing addressee cards, etc. So she will have had scissors available.

Burke's knife present in the basement should not be there, just as his touch-dna should really not be on a bloodstained dressing gown left in the wine-cellar, not a smoking gun, but not a good look either.</snip>

Why was one of Patsy's kitchen knives found on the 2nd floor laundry area counter near the cabinet where Linda told Patsy she hid Burke's pocketknife?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: There were some spots on it,
12 and I was kind of looking at them thinking that when I
13 got back from the lake I would take it to the
14 dry-cleaner or whatever.
15 A kitchen knife.
16 TOM HANEY: What would that be doing there?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know.
18 TOM HANEY: It does look like a kitchen
19 knife.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. I don't know what it
21 is doing there.
22 TOM HANEY: Do you recall yourself having
23 anything to do with that knife being there?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Is it on something? Is
25 that --
0334
1 TOM HANEY: I think that is just a shadow,
2 but a reflection off the --
3 PATSY RAMSEY: There. There is a tiny
4 yellowish color there. Can you see that?

5 I'm not sure if that is one of my kitchen
6 knives, to tell you the truth. That must be something.
7 TOM HANEY: We would have that.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: I could see that. In the
9 picture it looks like it is a very thin blade, like a
10 grapefruit knife or something.


http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Who would've been the most likely to have carried that knife upstairs and set in on the counter near the cabinet where Burke's knife was hidden: Burke, Patsy, or John?
 

proust20

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In JR's first version of the broken widow, and with LS's 'reenactment', both men would have to descend blindly into the dark train room. Neither explained how to do this but not cut by the broken glass. The Samsonite would not be under the window during entry. The intruder(s) would move it closer to there upon leaving. I'd think that as long as the window remained unrepaired, the house alarm system could not be set.

Everyone buys a Swiss Army knife while visiting Switzerland. That's why I wondered if PR did visit there. BR liked the knife; so it was an appropriate gift.
 

OldBackstop

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The scene and events here are tremendously complex. Much time went by before these interviews. That doesn't mean that when Patsy can't remember a shoe or a pocket knife that she GAROTTED HER DAUGHTER.
 

OldBackstop

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During the interview with Dr. Bernhard, Burke first described a knife attack which didn't happen. It's impossible that he didn't ever overhear anyone talk about what happened.

Parsing your double negative.....so you are saying Burke made up the knife attack part as misdirection, because in reality he must have known there wasn't a knife involved? And he then immediately followed it up with the hammer and arm movement people find so damning?

The 9 year old did this?

Are any of the BDI's parents?
 

Rain on my Parade

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Parsing your double negative.....so you are saying Burke made up the knife attack part as misdirection, because in reality he must have known there wasn't a knife involved? And he then immediately followed it up with the hammer and arm movement people find so damning?

The 9 year old did this?

Are any of the BDI's parents?

OldBackStop,
All three remaining members in the house that night played some part. The evidence points to all of them.
 
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