Was Tommy really afraid to tell the truth?

[bessie]

I find this to be a fascinating statement. If LE had any indication that RC lied about his alibi, he would have jumped to the top of the suspect list. Certainly, LE has to have looked at the whole timeline issues (as Misty's story was not believable from the get-go); LE would have had to verify Ron's whereabouts based on witnesses at work, surveillance photos, cell phone pings, etc.; they would have had the AC guy as a witness to help establish the time line; they have forensics from the trailer, etc. If RC was involved, it would have been in Misty and Tommy's best interest to have thrown him under the bus a long time ago. As the natural parent, if he was Haleigh's killer, he would go to jail for life. No need to be afraid of him at all. Even if Misty was blinded by love, Tommy was certainly not. At best, if Misty and Tommy were present when a parent killed Haleigh, they would be witnesses or perhaps accessories who could have quickly and easily turned on RC to help themselves.

The only thing that makes sense is that they were present when Haleigh was murdered (not dead by accident) and can't prove who did or did not do it and/or she died in a situation that would be felony murder and put all of them in prison for life or on death row. As it stands right now, we can see the three of them (Misty, Joe and Tommy) are in a finger-pointing game. There would be no need to do that unless they knew RC could prove he wasn't at the mobile home after Haleigh was last seen alive. To top it off, no DA would let Tommy, Misty and Joe be held up as the perpetrators if there was an idea that the natural parent was responsible. I just don't see why, given the turn the case has taken, that people are still convinced that RC is some kind of criminal mastermind that has enthralled Misty and Tommy and LE. The guy is in prison for drug dealing. He's not a threat to anyone but himself anymore.

You've made some excellent points, none of which are new to me, some of which I concur, and all of which I've deliberated conscientiously and repeatedly over the course of the past fifteen months. But you've taken my statement out of context. I've considered just about every possible angle to this case, but I've never been able to solidify a theory that places Ron, Misty, Tommy, and Joe at the same location, at the same moment that Haleigh drew her final breath. No, my comment referred to the characterization of cousin Jo as a young man so evil and volatile that he held the ability to impart paralyzing fear into Tommy and Misty. In my opinion, based on his known behavior both before and after Haleigh's death, that description is more befitting of Ron.

One threat I do believe powerful enough to render Tommy silent, among other things, is a potential felony murder charge. If you'll take a gander over at the "Werter Speaks Out" thread, you'll see that I stated as much Thursday night, referencing some of the same material you've posted here today.

 

[Wendy101]

Well I guess that answers my question regarding who was making the couch bounce like Jr reported.

ToC and MC are on the hook for the murder, as I don't think they could ever prove "fear of Joe" and thereby make him look like he acted alone in all this. Anyway, MC says that she was hiding out in the bedroom (according to Flo), and now ToC says that he was in the livingroom while JO went into the bedroom where Haleigh was sleeping--so yet another lie in action by the siblings. :twocents:

 

[dodie20]

Yes, ToC was and may still be afraid to speak the truth about what his role was in the events leading up to the homicide and disposal of the body, but not because JO was a physical threat to To's family. The real fear ToC had been grappling with was the loss of his wife (divorce) and family (doing time if charged) due to the consequences he believed he would face as a result of his actions and/or participation in the events of that evening and after (failure to tell the truth until "April"). Evidently, ToC has inserted himself on the scene from start to finish. Seems he was in the MH, in the transport vehicle (likely) and at the dock.

In order to believe ToC's explanation of fear of JO harming his family as the explanation of why he failed to be truthful prior to April, I must make an effort to enter ToC's world and, when I do, I must suspend rational thinking and logic. I don't have a problem with that. I have to do that for most of the players anyway since my life experiences are dissimilar.

Weapon of Intimidation, Homicide, Body to Dock>JO did it>JO lives in TN - I am terrified of JO. Therefore, I do not report the events of that evening to the police, not even within a reasonable amount of time after, because I am terrified of what Joe might do to my family.

OK, I've got that.

Headless Rat in Mailbox>Ron did it>Ron lives in Area - I am terrified of Ron. Therefore, I report the rat-in-my-mailbox to the police because I'm terrified of Ron and what Ron might do to me.

OK, I've got that.

Irrational - not a problem.

Why do I report a headless rat in my mailbox to the police, but not the true events surrounding the homicide? After all, I am traumatized after the events I have witnessed, and paralyzed by fear of harm to my family from JO.

Perhaps, because ToC is not really afraid of Ron - that's why he reported the Ratty, but not the terrifying events of that evening. Well, until or unless, or in case R or Linds begin to wonder whether ToC had some role, even an eyewitness one, in the events of that evening. After all, the Ratty-In-My-Mailbox incident is small by comparison to the events of that evening.

ToC was not afraid of Ron, per se, any more than it is likely that he was afraid of JO harming his family. After all, ToC knew he was in the MH, in the vehicle (likely) and at the dock. ToC was/is afraid, but of the consequences of his role in the events and actions of that evening which in his mind might result in the loss of his wife and family were he to tell the truth. His fears were/are directly related to any consequences he believed he could face.

If we're expected to make sense of these crazy Joe/Tommy stories, (& I'm trying), the whole rat incident is weird. Why did Ron send it? & why did Tommy report it? obviously, Ron wanted Tommy to keep quiet about something. I never bought Ron's ridiculous story of 'testing' Misty. But, if you think about it, Tommy was either pressured into reporting it, from an unsuspecting Linsey, or an opportunist Tommy seized a chance to take any suspicion off of himself, & put it on Ron. Personally, I think Ron was warning Tommy to keep quiet about Joe, & of his, (Ron's), & Misty's involvement. If this stuff is true, Misty may not have told Ron of Tommy's full involvement. because if he knew, why in the world would he expect Tommy to talk? like I said, ratgate is weird, & puts a kink into just about every theory.

 

[bessie]

If we're expected to make sense of these crazy Joe/Tommy stories, (& I'm trying), the whole rat incident is weird. Why did Ron send it? & why did Tommy report it? obviously, Ron wanted Tommy to keep quiet about something. I never bought Ron's ridiculous story of 'testing' Misty. But, if you think about it, Tommy was either pressured into reporting it, from an unsuspecting Linsey, or an opportunist Tommy seized a chance to take any suspicion off of himself, & put it on Ron. Personally, I think Ron was warning Tommy to keep quiet about Joe, & of his, (Ron's), & Misty's involvement. If this stuff is true, Misty may not have told Ron of Tommy's full involvement. because if he knew, why in the world would he expect Tommy to talk? like I said, ratgate is weird, & puts a kink into just about every theory.

Tommy was the weakest link, the least culpable and vulnerable to Lindsy's persuasion.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

snipped- I completely agree this makes the most sense to me. Ron is controlling this "circus."

Would you mind sharing what leads you to that conclusion?

I keep seeing references to how "Joe" is really "Ron" in the latest story and how this whole thing is Ron's fault. What I'm not seeing is anyone backing up those words with evidence that points to that end.

There are a several possibilities of who did what. I honestly don't see any fear of Ronald. That doesn't mean Ronald isn't involved, because you'd have to be deaf & blind not to recognize his involvement, but I'm at the point, (because of Tommy's blabbing mouth), of wondering how much & when it started. I don't see any reason for Tommy to be more scared of Ron than Joe. Yes, he has a lot of extended family members, but does he really believe that GGS or Teresa would kill his kids for his snitching? My impression of the Croslin's attitude towards Ron is this:They don't like him, he gets on their nerves, but they're not scared of him. When Misty was talking to Chelsea on the phone, Ron was brought up. Chelsea said she couldn't stand that 'mother effer'. & then Misty was so dismissive towards him. (& although there was no video, I could 'hear' Misty rolling her eyes, when she said that she wasn't protecting Ron. She was talking about the 2 who were involved-1 who they cared about & 1 who they didn't. & Misty @ some point claimed that Tommy had left the trailer, but then later came back. But in an interview, when GGH was asked who was in the room with Haleigh, she replied with something like, 'Joe & I guess Tommy '. I tended to believe her, because it made sense. Now, when did Ronald find out & become a part of the cover-up? Soon, I think, & the headless rat makes almost no sense, except maybe Ronald had decided he didn't want any of the truth to come out-maybe because it had started over his own illegal activities...stolen guns, drugs, fights, whatever. So, I don't think Tommy is scared of anybody...just protecting his own hide. If Ron or Misty was responsible, I don't think Tommy would hesitate in snitching. Now, Misty is a different story. She early on, pointed her finger at Joe & Tommy.

Again, how so? What evidence points to Ron's involvement?

 

[suspicious1]

If we're expected to make sense of these crazy Joe/Tommy stories, (& I'm trying), the whole rat incident is weird. Why did Ron send it? & why did Tommy report it? obviously, Ron wanted Tommy to keep quiet about something. I never bought Ron's ridiculous story of 'testing' Misty. But, if you think about it, Tommy was either pressured into reporting it, from an unsuspecting Linsey, or an opportunist Tommy seized a chance to take any suspicion off of himself, & put it on Ron. Personally, I think Ron was warning Tommy to keep quiet about Joe, & of his, (Ron's), & Misty's involvement. If this stuff is true, Misty may not have told Ron of Tommy's full involvement. because if he knew, why in the world would he expect Tommy to talk? like I said, ratgate is weird, & puts a kink into just about every theory.

Dodie,(something) cannot be explained away....it is what it is. A message to not talk....Oh, and let's not forget the reason Ron gave-"I wanted to see how well she could LIE". That's what Ron said about Misty and Ratgate. "See how well she could LIE?" It seems Misty is pretty good at it.

JMO though

 

[Wendy101]

WOW!! I love this!!

BBM:
Did Granny H say something about Haleigh being molested that night? I know I read that somewhere, but can't remember if it came from Granny H or not. if Granny H did say that, there might be some truth to the statement - after all, she didn't lie about the Tommy phone call -

Now, to why Tommy should be afraid: felony murder.


http://miamicriminallawyersblog.com/2009/05/floridas-felony-murder-rule.html

Let's postulate that Joe, Misty and Tommy were present and involved in committing a dangerous crime when Haleigh died and that one of the three murdered her. (That crime might have been drug trafficking, theft, burglary or worse--see below.) Thus, if Haleigh was killed or murdered as a result of the crime, all three could be charged with felony murder.

Now, one of the most serious felonies in Florida is "lewd and lascivious molestation":



So just molesting Haleigh would have meant a life sentence for the perpetrator. If she had been badly injured or killed in the act, and the perpetrator implicated the other two as part of the assault (e.g., giving the molester access or permission)--felony murder, again. Such an assault would mean multiple charges for the rape of a child and murder. That looks like the death penalty to me.

Now, let's think about how this scenario fits into Misty's various stories. Early on in the case, she said that she had been molested by Joe and Tommy. What if the grain of truth in this story is that there was a molestation, but it wasn't Misty; it was Haleigh. And both Joe and Tommy were involved. If Haleigh was badly injured or died, or if one of the perpetrators decided she had to be killed to cover up the assault--well, all three of them were on the hook for murder. There would be no explaining to RC or LE why Misty didn't stop the assault or call 911.

This scenario also fits with Junior's story (seeing a man take Haleigh and seeing the "bouncing couch," which could have been either a sexual assault on Haleigh or her murder.) It fits with the need to change sheets, talk about washing bedding, and Misty's confusion about what Haleigh was wearing. It fits with the blood in the van, the van being moved, and the damage on the vehicle. It fits with the rope and cinder blocks and the need to stage the crime scene. It fits with Misty's decision not to talk to Ron (she was partying earlier and then there was dealing with what happened to Haleigh). It fits with the decision to wait until RC came home to call 911, because it needed to look like Misty just woke up. If Ron had been involved, it would have worked better as an alibi for him to get an emergency call at work, to cement the alibi.

I suppose that Joe O. could just be a crazed homicidal maniac who was thwarted in stealing a gun. But that story is, I think, the last desperate lie that Tommy and Misty are telling to cover up whatever it is that all three of them were involved in that night.

 

[gngr~snap]

my tee mouse~

my delimma:banghead: is why on earth Ron said JO was NOT there... and that there was NO gun....while at the same time Ron was claiming he was at work. Unless JO was with Ron at work there is something hinky with Ron's statements.
Am I making any sense?

 

[Wendy101]

Maybe it was Misty that put Ron up to it...spun off a lie to Ron, and Ron did it?
Who said it was Ron that did that anyway?

If we're expected to make sense of these crazy Joe/Tommy stories, (& I'm trying), the whole rat incident is weird. Why did Ron send it? & why did Tommy report it? obviously, Ron wanted Tommy to keep quiet about something. I never bought Ron's ridiculous story of 'testing' Misty. But, if you think about it, Tommy was either pressured into reporting it, from an unsuspecting Linsey, or an opportunist Tommy seized a chance to take any suspicion off of himself, & put it on Ron. Personally, I think Ron was warning Tommy to keep quiet about Joe, & of his, (Ron's), & Misty's involvement. If this stuff is true, Misty may not have told Ron of Tommy's full involvement. because if he knew, why in the world would he expect Tommy to talk? like I said, ratgate is weird, & puts a kink into just about every theory.

 

[gngr~snap]

pittsburghgirl~

So just molesting Haleigh would have meant a life sentence for the perpetrator. If she had been badly injured or killed in the act, and the perpetrator implicated the other two as part of the assault (e.g., giving the molester access or permission)--felony murder, again. Such an assault would mean multiple charges for the rape of a child and murder. That looks like the death penalty to me.


I'm not trying to be mean or anything but seriously? with this group of Croslin's? They could not know anything more than if ya get caught ya go to the pokey!!!

But then again here we are 16 months later and they have not cracked yet LE has found no evidence that we know of and Haleigh has not been found so they are smarter than I would have given them credit for. Guess I'm the dummy!:waitasec:

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I find this to be a fascinating statement. If LE had any indication that RC lied about his alibi, he would have jumped to the top of the suspect list. Certainly, LE has to have looked at the whole timeline issues (as Misty's story was not believable from the get-go); LE would have had to verify Ron's whereabouts based on witnesses at work, surveillance photos, cell phone pings, etc.; they would have had the AC guy as a witness to help establish the time line; they have forensics from the trailer, etc. If RC was involved, it would have been in Misty and Tommy's best interest to have thrown him under the bus a long time ago. As the natural parent, if he was Haleigh's killer, he would go to jail for life. No need to be afraid of him at all. Even if Misty was blinded by love, Tommy was certainly not. At best, if Misty and Tommy were present when a parent killed Haleigh, they would be witnesses or perhaps accessories who could have quickly and easily turned on RC to help themselves.

The only thing that makes sense is that they were present when Haleigh was murdered (not dead by accident) and can't prove who did or did not do it and/or she died in a situation that would be felony murder and put all of them in prison for life or on death row. As it stands right now, we can see the three of them (Misty, Joe and Tommy) are in a finger-pointing game. There would be no need to do that unless they knew RC could prove he wasn't at the mobile home after Haleigh was last seen alive. To top it off, no DA would let Tommy, Misty and Joe be held up as the perpetrators if there was an idea that the natural parent was responsible. I just don't see why, given the turn the case has taken, that people are still convinced that RC is some kind of criminal mastermind that has enthralled Misty and Tommy and LE. The guy is in prison for drug dealing. He's not a threat to anyone but himself anymore.

According to his Lawyer Ron was at the top of the list. LE has never said anything about a list.

 

[TrialAddict]

Didn't Misty feed the rape of Haleigh story to GGH?

 

[kimmera]

my tee mouse~

my delimma:banghead: is why on earth Ron said JO was NOT there... and that there was NO gun....while at the same time Ron was claiming he was at work. Unless JO was with Ron at work there is something hinky with Ron's statements.
Am I making any sense?

Well you are making sense to me!!! This point has been sticking in my craw throughout this whole ordeal...why in the hello has RC vehemently denied, from the very beginning, that JO was even there that night? :waitasec:

 

[Wendy101]

OK. Is Joe Misty's cousin, Ronalds cousin or both?

Well you are making sense to me!!! This point has been sticking in my craw throughout this whole ordeal...why in the hello has RC vehemently denied, from the very beginning, that JO was even there that night? :waitasec:

 

[gngr~snap]

OK. Is Joe Misty's cousin, Ronalds cousin or both?

JO is Misty's cousin.

 

[gngr~snap]

Well you are making sense to me!!! This point has been sticking in my craw throughout this whole ordeal...why in the hello has RC vehemently denied, from the very beginning, that JO was even there that night? :waitasec:

Yet Misty and ToC say JO was there and there was a gun?!!:banghead:

 

[kimmera]

Something else I just thought about --

From day 1 - TC, CC, RC & MC were throwing out little "hints" pointing the finger in Joes direction without actually coming out and saying he did it. If it's true Joe did this and they feared for their lives, they wouldn't be saying ANYTHING. MC wouldn't have said "Joe messed with me" or "Bumping locks & cinder blocks is Joes MO". RC's statements would have definitely sent MC & TC into hiding. They weren't afraid of him. They've been pointing to him since the very beginning.

ITA! Not to mention TN as well, planting the seed with the media early on that JO was a sex offender (which is NOT TRUE). When you look at some of the early statements to the media by almost every one of the players involved, particularly in light of the recent developments with TC and Werter, it is pretty obvious to me that they were trying to frame JO from the jump! I am not buying for a minute that BOTH of these families have been scared witless for 15 months of a 140 lb. (something) that lives two states away and doesn't even have a car! It just doesn't wash, in my mind...MOO, and all that...

 

[krkrjx]

Tommy was scared of being charged for his own involvement in the crime or of someone else involved in the crime. And it wasn't JO. Not saying JO was not involved, because he may have been. But JO did not scare a totally innocent Tommy and/or Misty into silence. If this were true, they would still be too scared to point toward JO.

Tommy remained too scared to talk even after JO had gone back to Tenn. I think he may have received threats--let's not forget that a dead rat was placed in Tommy's mailbox, and it was placed by someone locally; it was not delivered by USPS bearing postage.

IMO, yes Tommy was too scared to talk. But not of JO.

 

[bessie]

Maybe it was Misty that put Ron up to it...spun off a lie to Ron, and Ron did it?
Who said it was Ron that did that anyway?

Ronald Cummings denied any ties to (something) and claimed he was partying, with Misty as a witness.
But Tim Miller, director of Equusearch, the non profit search outfit dedicated to finding the missing who arranged the polygraph, hypnosis and a voice stress test for Misty, tells me in an exclusive interview that Ronald admitted he planted the rat –with Misty — as his own test of truth, as bizarre as it may sound.
The reason? “He said he wanted to see how good Misty could lie to the police so he could tell how good she was lying to him,” Miller told The Bald Truth. Another well respected attorney confirmed he heard Cummings relate the same story.


http://www.artharris.com/2009/09/15...gation-update-haleigh-case-break-coming-soon/

 

[pamandabear]

Didn't Misty feed the rape of Haleigh story to GGH?

That is what I had heard, she had said that her and Jr were in the room hiding under a blanket while Haleigh was being raped in the living room..