GUILTY - Wayne Millard Murder Trial - Dellen Millard Charged With Murder - #4

[Claroon]

My self-righteousness here. I don't think we are to slam people who are not on trial (eg. MM). I may have done it myself but we don't know much about these people to-date, and opinion and assumption aren't fact or truth.

<modsnip: Please don't tell others how to post or try to moderate the thread. Websleuths has staff who do that. >

 

[ABro]

Why would MM think a cell phone DM left at Smich's house could be a birthday present for her? Her birthday was over 2 months away in February. Why not a xmas present? She also said that Laura's iPad was supposed to be a present for her but Mark claimed it. Doesn't make sense. A lie IMO.

Maybe he had already said he would get her a cellphone for her birthday. Maybe he had told her he was getting her something else for Xmas. Maybe they decided they weren't giving each other Xmas presents.

As for the iPad, DM is the guy who gave Schlatman half a car, isn't he? Is it really so outlandish he would have given the iPad to both Smich and MM?

There are many possible explanations other than she must be lying.

Anyway, I think I'll give up on the topic of MM since so many people are committed to seeing everything she does or doesn't do in the worst possible light.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

My book has a few more details about the relationship. My description of the relationship as deeply toxic is my interpretation based on the facts as we know them.

Wayne was a very strange and troubled man but also had a "sweet" side. I suspect he was in denial about his son.

He did have financial leverage over DM, which is ultimately why I believe DM killed him.

MB is another strange figure, described to me by someone who has dealt with her in recent years as astonishingly lacking in empathy, just like her son. She is in complete denial and uninterested in the truth.

Interesting!
(I'm looking forward to the book if i can read it on kindle. )

 

[Errrr]

Why would MM think a cell phone DM left at Smich's house could be a birthday present for her? Her birthday was over 2 months away in February. Why not a xmas present? She also said that Laura's iPad was supposed to be a present for her but Mark claimed it. Doesn't make sense. A lie IMO.

Maybe, like the news reporter who puts the word jigsaw before puzzle, MM says birthday before present most of the time.

 

[tmar]

I think the difference is, if DM is found guilty, it overrules the suicide death ruling and indicates govt and civic incompetence while conducting the initial investigation. And if WMs death been viewed as even slightly suspicious, it might’ve prevented DM from being free to go on to commit TB’s murder.

I also noted on the witness stand how the coroner defended his death by suicide ruling. If DM is found guilty, will all the prior death investigation he was involved in be reviewed?

This case seems to be very unique - I’ve not been able to find another (outside of instances of confessions) where a closed suicide file was later prosecuted as murder. If DM is found guilty, I strongly suspect there will be other repercussions well beyond his sentencing... but on the other hand, I can’t say I’m convinced that the Crown put forward their best effort in achieving a conviction. Time will tell.

Look at the ?? findings of the Rebecca Zahau case, which is in the lime light.
Suicide and now.........
Look at similarities in ? staged.

 

[winter2017]

Maybe, like the news reporter who puts the word jigsaw before puzzle, MM says birthday before present most of the time.

To try to figure out most of what she says would not be easy and that is why I would not bother to. All I care about is what was said about DM being there with her and MS etc and how it relates to the case.

 

[winter2017]

(bbm) - MS's rap lyrics "They chose to call me MARK at birth but they should've called me MERK.
All I do is put in work, no fun and games, til someone's hurt."

Bosma Day 54: Crown cross of Smich

Yeah his sick raps about murder , he can do his raps in prison now where I am sure he will have some liking his raps about murdering someone.

 

[tmar]

I don't get why some people continue to defend a woman who was interviewed about 8 times with different results each time. A woman who admitted knowing that her boyfriend was involved in the murder of a man who still hadn't been found but went to a wedding with him professing her love and hoping he wouldn't get caught. This is evidence that yes, she did know of at least one murder. The same woman who admitted lying on the stand while under oath, more than once to the point where any info she gives on the stand is now met with skepticism.

This is also the same woman who was involved in MS's breach of the no contact order and who was trying to reach out to MWJ online around the same time. The same woman who was present during the commission of one murder and the cleanup, used as an alibi for another and was present during the planning of at least the truck theft. How naive can one person be? Considering she was all on board "not to tell them anything" at the time of her arrest, because she lied and held back info then, not that naive IMO.

MM did what was best for her just as CN did. The only difference is she does have a conscience and decided to give up information that didn't implicate her after she finally gave up on her dream of marrying MS and was satisfied that they would both likely spend their life behind bars. She always had a dislike for DM so she wanted to help convict him.

So yes, IMO, there is evidence that she knew more than she let on. But there is no evidence she was directly involved in any of the murders or the cleanup, except for her running around the farm and hangar apparently oblivious while they were burning LB's body.

So yes, some of us choose to believe that she knows more than she provided to LE. That is our opinion, which we are entitled to. And it's based on facts that are in evidence for all three trials. No one is bashing her. Some might be impressed on how she's been able to manoever and manipulate around a lot of LE and attorneys to keep herself out of trouble and at the same time appear to some, to be a sweet, young naive thing who knew nothing and was just confused.

MOO

Great Post, and summary.

 

[nuff]

I expected CN would be called as a Crown witness. What’s your thoughts on her?

She's a sociopath. She may never have killed anyone, but she was fully aware of what DM was doing, and in the Babcock case, was instrumental in egging him on and likely knew, at least after the fact, what had happened.

 

[nuff]

Thought experiment: If you were the judge and considered only the evidence you're allowed to consider, would you have a reasonable doubt that DM shot his father? (I've been thinking about this - it's difficult to disregard all we know about him from other cases, but I think I'd still be prepared to rule out suicide, and there's no-one else who had means, motive and opportunity.)

 

[LN33]

I imagine both RP and JC (along with KL) are very busy this weekend working on their closing statements and both will do their jobs well. I am interested to see if RP has anything to present other than casting doubt on the evidence. I do think that the Crown has a strong case. I don't believe that the evidence supports suicide especially because of the absent fingerprints. However, the thing I could see prompting, or perhaps goading WB to suicide would be learning about LB. I don't think if he came to know about LB that he would be thinking about protecting his son by leaving a note; he would not be concerned with him being under suspicion. I cannot imagine, what it would be like, as a parent, to realize that your son might be capable of such a horrific act - but again, because of the lack of fingerprints (let alone all the circumstantial evidence) I don't believe WM killed himself. I have no doubt that it was DM. MOO.

 

[winter2017]

She's a sociopath. She may never have killed anyone, but she was fully aware of what DM was doing, and in the Babcock case, was instrumental in egging him on and likely knew, at least after the fact, what had happened.

Definitely and who knows we may hear more about her in the future , she is as sick as DM, and any man that she hooks up with will probably have to be pretty warped.

 

[Kamille]

I defend MM for the same reason Tony Leitch did in his closing address to the jury at the Bosma case. Because she knew she had done wrong and has tried, through three trials, to correct her mistakes.

She spoke to the police 8 times because she was a key witness in three trials. She told lies to minimize her involvement and cast herself in a better light, which is a highly common practice for those involved with criminals.

Her lies -- which are far from as numerous as you maintain -- are easily explicable, and she was a highly credible witness at the Bosma trial, which is why her testimony was replayed over and over again by the Crown including in closing arguments. The jury understood why she lied.

If juries understand the motivation for a lie, they don't throw out a witness's testimony wholesale nor are they asked to. This is precisely why they are told they can believe some, all or none of a witness's testimony. Criminal courts are a constant stream of imperfect witnesses like MM.

Finally, there a lot of unsourced misinformation in your post to which I will not respond.

Not a surprise that the Crown attorney would defend one of his key witnesses and want the jury to believe she was trying her best to do the right thing. The rest is your opinion, unless you know what the jury was thinking.

My opinion is that she barely grazed on what she actually knew and could have tried a little harder. Although I agree with your reasoning for why she wasn't as truthful and forthcoming as she could have been. She wanted to minimize her involvement and cast herself in a better light. No matter how many witnesses do this in a courtroom during a murder or other criminal trial, it doesn't make it morally okay in my opinion.

And I only mentioned that she lied more than once on the stand. RP has caught her out on them and she's admitted to them. I'm not sure why you think I said she told numerous lies. My post was more about what I believe she didn't tell. Although I do believe she told many during her interviews.

Unsourced misinformation? Everything I posted was based on people spending hours sleuthing here at WS which generated tips that were called in to LE. The source and links for that information can be found within the Bosma threads on this board.

Bottom Line, MM is always going to be a topic for debate and there are two opinions regarding her (and others). And that's what they are...opinions. I was asked for mine regarding MM and I gave it.

MOO

 

[winter2017]

I imagine both RP and JC (along with KL) are very busy this weekend working on their closing statements and both will do their jobs well. I am interested to see if RP has anything to present other than casting doubt on the evidence. I do think that the Crown has a strong case. I don't believe that the evidence supports suicide especially because of the absent fingerprints. However, the thing I could see prompting, or perhaps goading WB to suicide would be learning about LB. I don't think if he came to know about LB that he would be thinking about protecting his son by leaving a note; he would not be concerned with him being under suspicion. I cannot imagine, what it would be like, as a parent, to realize that your son might be capable of such a horrific act - but again, because of the lack of fingerprints (let alone all the circumstantial evidence) I don't believe WM killed himself. I have no doubt that it was DM. MOO.

That is a good point you made that if Wayne did have knowledge of DM killing Laura in the house it would be a reason he would want to end his life.
The gf that spoke with him often up to when he died , did not hint that there was something was upsetting Wayne. If he did know that DM killed Laura he might not say what was upsetting but he might give some hint that he knew something that was hard for him to deal with.
The gf never said he talked about him being really upset.
He was drinking and taking some strong pain killers and I have a feeling he was really out of it, when Laura was murdered in the house.
MM I believe said he stayed in his bedroom. Who can blame him. No one was there to help him get DM out of his life.
I think his relationship with the new gf may have been what would help him to get DM out of his life and either sell his 1/2 of the house to DM and he would find a new place to live. I doubt DM would leave the house voluntarily. Wayne would have had to be the one to move.

 

[winter2017]

Not a surprise that the Crown attorney would defend one of his key witnesses and want the jury to believe she was trying her best to do the right thing. The rest is your opinion, unless you know what the jury was thinking.

My opinion is that she barely grazed on what she actually knew and could have tried a little harder. Although I agree with your reasoning for why she wasn't as truthful and forthcoming as she could have been. She wanted to minimize her involvement and cast herself in a better light. No matter how many witnesses do this in a courtroom during a murder or other criminal trial, it doesn't make it morally okay in my opinion.

And I only mentioned that she lied more than once on the stand. RP has caught her out on them and she's admitted to them. I'm not sure why you think I said she told numerous lies. My post was more about what I believe she didn't tell. Although I do believe she told many during her interviews.

Unsourced misinformation? Everything I posted was based on people spending hours sleuthing here at WS which generated tips that were called in to LE. The source and links for that information can be found within the Bosma threads on this board.

Bottom Line, MM is always going to be a topic for debate and there are two opinions regarding her (and others). And that's what they are...opinions. I was asked for mine regarding MM and I gave it.

MOO

I agree Kamille, on a few groups people are divided about her, and some really think she is a dirtbag as much as CN and a few of the people who worked with DM at the hangar.
Others are more sympathetic to her. I am one not sympathetic at all.
IF she stays out of trouble and can come to some realization that she got involved with some very bad people maybe she can stay out of trouble, but I would not hold my breath.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wayne Millard’s ‘state of mind’ to be focus in Dellen Millard’s next murder trial
By BETSY POWELLCourt Reporter
Fri., May 18, 2018
More than five years after Wayne Millard’s death, prosecutors have outlined the evidence, and witnesses, they plan to call to prove he wasn’t suicidal and that his murderous son, Dellen Millard, pulled the trigger.

“The central issue for you to decide is what was his (Wayne Millard’s) state of mind at the time” of his death, prosecutor Jill Cameron told Superior Court Justice Maureen Forestell on Thursday.

Wayne Millard’s ‘state of mind’ to be focus in Dellen Millard’s next murder trial | The Star

*******

BBM
The date was May 18, 2018.

Regarding WM’s state of mind, I got to admit I’m undecided if the Crown proved what they intended to, although it will certainly be good if the Judge has no doubt it a homicide. Closing statements will be interesting.

 

[MistyWaters]

That is a good point you made that if Wayne did have knowledge of DM killing Laura in the house it would be a reason he would want to end his life.
The gf that spoke with him often up to when he died , did not hint that there was something was upsetting Wayne. If he did know that DM killed Laura he might not say what was upsetting but he might give some hint that he knew something that was hard for him to deal with.
The gf never said he talked about him being really upset.
He was drinking and taking some strong pain killers and I have a feeling he was really out of it, when Laura was murdered in the house.
MM I believe said he stayed in his bedroom. Who can blame him. No one was there to help him get DM out of his life.
I think his relationship with the new gf may have been what would help him to get DM out of his life and either sell his 1/2 of the house to DM and he would find a new place to live. I doubt DM would leave the house voluntarily. Wayne would have had to be the one to move.

It’s really unfortunate that WM chose not to confide in JC regarding any issues with DM, especially if he was suspicious about unlawful activity. Her ex was reportedly a cop and I think she could've been supportive, at a minimum by giving him courage to deal with it.

May 31
marianne boucher
@CityCourtsTO
Crown Jill Cameron does not give an opening statement or overview when it is a judge alone trial. Janet Campbell is called as a witness. She says by way of background that she was adopted. Once married to a T.O cop. Met Wayne Millard as a kid, he was her cousin

 

[MistyWaters]

I imagine both RP and JC (along with KL) are very busy this weekend working on their closing statements and both will do their jobs well. I am interested to see if RP has anything to present other than casting doubt on the evidence. I do think that the Crown has a strong case. I don't believe that the evidence supports suicide especially because of the absent fingerprints. However, the thing I could see prompting, or perhaps goading WB to suicide would be learning about LB. I don't think if he came to know about LB that he would be thinking about protecting his son by leaving a note; he would not be concerned with him being under suspicion. I cannot imagine, what it would be like, as a parent, to realize that your son might be capable of such a horrific act - but again, because of the lack of fingerprints (let alone all the circumstantial evidence) I don't believe WM killed himself. I have no doubt that it was DM. MOO.

If the Judge were to consider the lack of fingerprints on the gun as evidence, just my opinion, I think the Crown would’ve been required to present expert testimony to introduce that evidence by outlining why lack of fingerprints is an indicator pointing to suicide, to prove their case. However that didn’t occur.

This article states the odds are very low, only 5%, for finding fingerprints on weapons and blames the CSI effect for setting the expectation.
Why We Don't Find Fingerprints on Firearms - Law Enforcement Today

 

[winter2017]

It’s really unfortunate that WM chose not to confide in JC regarding any issues with DM, especially if he was suspicious about unlawful activity. Her ex was reportedly a cop and I think she could've been supportive, at a minimum by giving him courage to deal with it.

May 31
marianne boucher
@CityCourtsTO
Crown Jill Cameron does not give an opening statement or overview when it is a judge alone trial. Janet Campbell is called as a witness. She says by way of background that she was adopted. Once married to a T.O cop. Met Wayne Millard as a kid, he was her cousin

I think that as the relationship went a long he would have said more, but he never had the chance.
It seems like Wayne had no one else that he could confide in. I wonder what the housekeeper had to say.
She must have seen the mess the house was in and that it was DM making all the mess.
I even read on google a few years ago that DM and MS amd MM were taking food out of the refrigerator that Wayne had bought.
Wayne never had the chance to confide in the gf, and I am sure DM wanted to make sure he didn't.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think that as the relationship went a long he would have said more, but he never had the chance.
It seems like Wayne had no one else that he could confide in. I wonder what the housekeeper had to say.
She must have seen the mess the house was in and that it was DM making all the mess.
I even read on google a few years ago that DM and MS amd MM were taking food out of the refrigerator that Wayne had bought.
Wayne never had the chance to confide in the gf, and I am sure DM wanted to make sure he didn't.

Yes, I agree it appears WM was very socially isolated and other than JC, his primary contacts were all people connected by a paycheque from him.

I also think I recall something about WM putting his foot down over the parties and couch surfers in the basement at Maple Gate as well. Then DM moved them into one of his other properties but after awhile they all returned. It’s not a long step toward elder abuse when the parent no longer has control over what goes on in their own home.