"We Didn't Mean for This to Happen"

[dodie20]

I'm curious...

If you knew what caused the head bash, would it change who you would consider to be the person who caused it?
.

I don't thinks so, as long as it was accessible to each of them. flashlight, golf club, baseball bat, whatever. Whoever did it, probably just picked up what was handy.

 

[dodie20]

Oh this bloody case! Grr! Here is my opinion-- and soley my opinion, I don't know if I am correct.

One of the perps is dead. PR was involved on some level-- at the very least on the cover up. I feel quite sure she wrote the RN. JR was at the very least involved in the cover up, and was possibly abusing JBR. He might have been involved in the stangulation. He may have done the head bash, but I can more readily envision PR or Burke having done that. I thnk either PR or JR stangled JBR, whom in thier horror & sickness may have seen it as a mercy likking.(In addition to having to get JBR medical attention andset an investigation rolling that would have thier whole illusory, perfet world come crashing down.)

But look at all the obfuscation you mentioned. Dr Beuf-- I see red flags here in that he treated PR during the immediate aftermath and he wasn't her physician. His actions sheilded her. Why? He won't release JBR's medical records-- why? There are so many players (including DAs and hired guns like Lou Smit that covered for the Ramseys-- why? (Although in Smit's case I feel I know why and it paints an ugly picture of Christian bias which is endemic in western society, plus points that the old fart was on his way out as a "crime solving genius" and his faculties may have been severly impaired.)

When JR talks in interviews or babbles in his books, his focus is off--- wants to know the "whys" rather than the "whos". If it were my child and I hadn't been involved my first question would be "who" for that would likely lead to the "why". By skipping that step in reasoning we could infer that he likely knows who-- and he is covering for either himself, Patsy or Burke (or even JAR, although that is fairly far-fetched but not implausible; JAR may have been the molestor, but not on the night of the murder.) His plaintive, whining asking "why"-- whilst seemingly a normal human reaction, aren't we all asking "why!"-- is IMO crocodile tears and misdirection.

What galls me is why anyone in their right mind would cover for these Ramsey's. Friendship? (How sick does one have to be to have loyalty trump getting justice in a murder?) True belief in R innocense? Money-induced? Could be any of those & other things not mentioned. Is it just too awful to beleive that horrific things happen in seemingly average families? Yes, of course.-- but it does happen. Even if it came to light that PR, JR and/or BR didn't do it, they haven't acted with any sort of integrity. They appear to see themselves as superior, elect and above the law. That is a hurdle I just cannot get past.

Yes I agree (and have said in my other recent posts) that the Ramsey household was a ticking time bomb. We may be looking at more than one crime here-- the sexual abuse of a child (or children) by PR, JR, JAR, any other close family memebr or friend, or even BR upon JBR) and then a murmurderous intent. The staging & cover up is yet another crime to further mask the sick Ramsey dynamic. It may be a "perfect storm" of events, which would make solving this crime even more difficult.

what you said about JR wanting to know the why versus the who, reminded me of something. I don't have the exact quote, but when PR's mother was dying, she said something that struck me as odd. She said something like, 'now, her mother would know everything'. She then, if I'm not mistaken, told a reporter something like, 'if she could, she would come back and tell her what happened'. This all seemed odd, because IMO, a normal response to her mother dying, would be to ask her to tell JB that she loved her, and missed her, and would be with her soon. But PR, IMO, seemed nervous and preoccupied with what her mother would find out. moo

 

[dodie20]

I agree that one or both parents did the staging. I have no reasonable doubt about that. I still think it's 50/50 that Patsy makes just as good a suspect as Burke. She had the means and opportunity. I think Steve Thomas saw the same evidence Jim Kolar saw yet they came to two different conclusions. Linda Arndt, well, she seems to have believed John Ramsey did it yet imo a BDI could also explain Arndt's belief that Patsy was imprisoned by secrets (yet any RDI could have imprisoning secrets).

I think Burke could have been just what Thomas and other officers said: a witness and a confused little boy. It would be devastating to see a parent kill your sibling if that is indeed what happened.

I believe Patsy wrote the note and I believe John and Patsy knew exactly what happened and that's as far as I'll go. :fence:

yes, LE had access to the same information, so for them to be given a pass, for not wanting to out BR, doesn't make much sense, IMO. If these LE thought BR was responsible, and there was evidence to back it up, they wouldn't have been suspicious of PR, and JMK, among others. So, until I see something substantial, I can't see BR, as a viable suspect. moo

 

[Anyhoo]

what you said about JR wanting to know the why versus the who, reminded me of something. I don't have the exact quote, but when PR's mother was dying, she said something that struck me as odd. She said something like, 'now, her mother would know everything'. She then, if I'm not mistaken, told a reporter something like, 'if she could, she would come back and tell her what happened'. This all seemed odd, because IMO, a normal response to her mother dying, would be to ask her to tell JB that she loved her, and missed her, and would be with her soon. But PR, IMO, seemed nervous and preoccupied with what her mother would find out. moo

I think that was just PR trying to give everyone the false impression that she didn't know what happened to JB. I believe PR did know what happened. Knew what, who, and why.

 

[dodie20]

I agree that one or both parents did the staging. I have no reasonable doubt about that. I still think it's 50/50 that Patsy makes just as good a suspect as Burke. She had the means and opportunity. I think Steve Thomas saw the same evidence Jim Kolar saw yet they came to two different conclusions. Linda Arndt, well, she seems to have believed John Ramsey did it yet imo a BDI could also explain Arndt's belief that Patsy was imprisoned by secrets (yet any RDI could have imprisoning secrets).

I think Burke could have been just what Thomas and other officers said: a witness and a confused little boy. It would be devastating to see a parent kill your sibling if that is indeed what happened.

I believe Patsy wrote the note and I believe John and Patsy knew exactly what happened and that's as far as I'll go. :fence:

There's something I've been wondering, presuming that LE had access to the same information that Kolar did. 1st of all, what about the feces covered chocolate. Obviously, it didn't belong to an adult, or something would have been done about it, so that leaves BR and JB. Though BR reportedly had smearing issues in the past, I'm not convinced this rules out JB. IMO, it's very likely that she suffered from the same issues-either learned behavior, genetic, or whatever emotional factor caused BR to act out also caused JB to act out. IMO, this kind of behavior is a cry for help, and from what I've read, both of these children had reason to cry out. But, if it was JB's feces, why didn't Steve Thomas, for instance, use this in his bed wetting theory? But, by the same token, if the feces belonged to BR, why wasn't he seen as a viable suspect? because come on, if a brother would do that to his little sister's candy, there's a major problem between the 2. Ok, the other thing I've been wondering about, is the time lapse between the head bash and strangulation. Where does this close to 2 hours, play into the accident, panicked mother theory? Did Steve Thomas, for instance, have access to this information? because regardless of what caused the head bash, that strangulation was no accident.

 

[BOESP]

There's something I've been wondering, presuming that LE had access to the same information that Kolar did. 1st of all, what about the feces covered chocolate. Obviously, it didn't belong to an adult, or something would have been done about it, so that leaves BR and JB. Though BR reportedly had smearing issues in the past, I'm not convinced this rules out JB. IMO, it's very likely that she suffered from the same issues-either learned behavior, genetic, or whatever emotional factor caused BR to act out also caused JB to act out. IMO, this kind of behavior is a cry for help, and from what I've read, both of these children had reason to cry out. But, if it was JB's feces, why didn't Steve Thomas, for instance, use this in his bed wetting theory? But, by the same token, if the feces belonged to BR, why wasn't he seen as a viable suspect? because come on, if a brother would do that to his little sister's candy, there's a major problem between the 2. Ok, the other thing I've been wondering about, is the time lapse between the head bash and strangulation. Where does this close to 2 hours, play into the accident, panicked mother theory? Did Steve Thomas, for instance, have access to this information? because regardless of what caused the head bash, that strangulation was no accident.

I no longer have Thomas's book but, iirc, he used the word "soiling" and not bed-wetting exclusively. I took what he wrote as meaning JonBenet had issues of "soiling" herself. That's my take on that.

Like you, I wonder if JonBenet didn't suffer the same issues as Burke.I've wondered if perhaps Patsy smeared the feces on the candy box as a rebuke.

I don't think it has been established beyond doubt what amount of time lapsed between the events (head trauma and ligature strangulation).

 

[midwest mama]

Dodie20 - You have made some good points in your recent posts which give pause to looking at BR as JB's perp. Most convincing statement is that if LE did have reason to suspect BR, why would they keep investigating and looking at the parents, and then go after JMK. They have put a lot of emphasis on the DNA, though that gets continually debunked by many in arguments against it's validity.

I know the R's have been accused of buying themselves off all these years, but to continue to do so with each newly assigned LE spearhead seems somewhat unlikely, doesn't it? It seems unbelievable that someone within LE would not have come forth with a resolved BDI case scenario by now if they were certain of it, since it would totally exonerate any other suspects. Unless they really are not willing to make themselves look like major idiots for not wrapping up the case earlier, since the DNA is really all the later information that was added to the case.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Dodie20 - You have made some good points in your recent posts which give pause to looking at BR as JB's perp. Most convincing statement is that if LE did have reason to suspect BR, why would they keep investigating and looking at the parents, and then go after JMK. They have put a lot of emphasis on the DNA, though that gets continually debunked by many in arguments against it's validity.

I know the R's have been accused of buying themselves off all these years, but to continue to do so with each newly assigned LE spearhead seems somewhat unlikely, doesn't it? It seems unbelievable that someone within LE would not have come forth with a resolved BDI case scenario by now if they were certain of it, since it would totally exonerate any other suspects. Unless they really are not willing to make themselves look like major idiots for not wrapping up the case earlier, since the DNA is really all the later information that was added to the case.

I don't think any of us believe the R's have been given $$ to Boulder PD for the past 17 years. I don't want to speak for everyone, but I think the main theory is the R's had the $$ to hire the best lawyers, and these lawyers had connections up to the state government which put a stop to justice. For example, LE has never been able to access the R's phone records from December 1996. Steve Thomas says they were "prohibited" from obtaining them.

 

[4Jacy]

There's something I've been wondering, presuming that LE had access to the same information that Kolar did. 1st of all, what about the feces covered chocolate. Obviously, it didn't belong to an adult, or something would have been done about it, so that leaves BR and JB. Though BR reportedly had smearing issues in the past, I'm not convinced this rules out JB. IMO, it's very likely that she suffered from the same issues-either learned behavior, genetic, or whatever emotional factor caused BR to act out also caused JB to act out. IMO, this kind of behavior is a cry for help, and from what I've read, both of these children had reason to cry out. But, if it was JB's feces, why didn't Steve Thomas, for instance, use this in his bed wetting theory? But, by the same token, if the feces belonged to BR, why wasn't he seen as a viable suspect? because come on, if a brother would do that to his little sister's candy, there's a major problem between the 2. Ok, the other thing I've been wondering about, is the time lapse between the head bash and strangulation. Where does this close to 2 hours, play into the accident, panicked mother theory? Did Steve Thomas, for instance, have access to this information? because regardless of what caused the head bash, that strangulation was no accident.

OMG, Dodie, I've followed this case from the beginning. Don't post much anymore because this murder (AND THE WAY PATSY EXPLOITED JBR) drained me. Anyway, I had forgotten about the "smearing". OMG, if that (smearing) had ever happened, in any other family, we would all would have a live-in shrink! God bless JBR and condemn whoever molested, hurt and murdered her.

 

[dodie20]

I'm curious...

If you knew what caused the head bash, would it change who you would consider to be the person who caused it?
.

Imo, anybody in the house could have used any accessible object to bash JB, but there are certain things that might make me lean towards a certain person. For instance, if it came out that the bathroom sink was used, I'd lean towards PR...because of the bathroom fights between the 2, that were reported. If one of JB's new Christmas toys was used, for instance, I'd lean towards BR and jealousy. But honestly, the bash seems so unplanned, that I think someone probably literally grabbed the 1st thing he/she could. Now, the strangling, is a different story. This was obviously planned, and the items used to make the garotte, seem to point to PR. That is, if we take into consideration that a killer might be inclined to use items that he/she is familiar with. MOO.

 

[azwriter]

I agree with you that the flashlight and battery wipe-down suggests to us that whoever did it was forensically aware, but if that is so then how do we explain the presence of the practice note being left where LE could find it? These two pieces of evidence are totally contrary or contradictory to each other, would you agree with me on that? And if they are contradictory, it indicates to me that one of them is a deception/ruse, such that one of the following is true:

1. The flashlight and batteries were wiped down to give the impression of a non-R intruder when in fact no such intruder existed.
2. The practice ransom note was meant to be found and point guilt toward the R's.

Of these two, the first one is most likely.

If we make the assumption that one or both R's created the ransom note, then how do we explain the presence of the practice note? Does anyone believe that someone perceptive enough to wipe down batteries in a flashlight to give the false impression of an intruder using the flashlight would be careless/stupid enough to leave a practice ransom note just lying around?

Liked your ideas, but I do think you might be making too much of the practice note. In fact this note in particular might not even be a practice note. But, it seems to have earned that title somehow.

I don't see the parents as being well-trained criminals who could think of everything in perfection in order to hide what happened to JonBenet. I think instead the so-called practice note was forgotten about and not remembered until it was handed over to LE and then it was too late.

I imagine Patsy and John being pressed for ideas and time to cover up the real story of that night. In haste, some things were not looked after or hid and surfaced. I am also sure they expected LE to find the body in a short time but it didn't happen and John had to discover the body. Can you imagine how frustrated the parents might have been waiting for the cops to do their search and find the child? I think John would have been jumping out of his skin but hiding it quite well in his cool attitude.

 

[dodie20]

Liked your ideas, but I do think you might be making too much of the practice note. In fact this note in particular might not even be a practice note. But, it seems to have earned that title somehow.

I don't see the parents as being well-trained criminals who could think of everything in perfection in order to hide what happened to JonBenet. I think instead the so-called practice note was forgotten about and not remembered until it was handed over to LE and then it was too late.

I imagine Patsy and John being pressed for ideas and time to cover up the real story of that night. In haste, some things were not looked after or hid and surfaced. I am also sure they expected LE to find the body in a short time but it didn't happen and John had to discover the body. Can you imagine how frustrated the parents might have been waiting for the cops to do their search and find the child? I think John would have been jumping out of his skin but hiding it quite well in his cool attitude.

The only significance of the practice note IMO, is that no matter who wrote it, he/she didn't bring it in from another location, and he/she didn't feel pressed for time. This is what I think about the note, among other things, not being gotten rid of. IMO, the killer had to decide if getting rid of evidence was worth the risk of maybe being seen out of the house, and IMO, he/she decided it wasn't.

 

[midwest mama]

The only significance of the practice note IMO, is that no matter who wrote it, he/she didn't bring it in from another location, and he/she didn't feel pressed for time. This is what I think about the note, among other things, not being gotten rid of. IMO, the killer had to decide if getting rid of evidence was worth the risk of maybe being seen out of the house, and IMO, he/she decided it wasn't.

So, the killer (RDI) now has JB's dead body to deal with.

Ransom note story has been written to provide reason she is dead other than family member killing her.
Dumping body? Would have to take risk of either doing it during the night
when it is dark or before police get involved, because too risky if police are
involved. Besides, can't dump body - just can't.
Hide body! Would later tell police that once money was delivered, just as
note says, kidnappers would tell him he could "pick up" his daughter from
the wine cellar, where they stashed it after one of their perverted gang
attacked and killed her. (Too bad, JR - Wasn't it good of them to try to
take such good care of her body).
Call police to circumvent travel plans. (They would never find body hidden away in wine cellar since they'd believe note and them saying she was gone).

Broken window might lend towards intruder, plus several other suspect friends or people with keys could explain an 'inside job'.
Everything crazy and confused for hours and Arndt is not going away. How can we go through with ransom plans? Call is due to come in on 27th.

Getting nervous, what to do?

Arndt provides escape hatch - can rush to "find" daughter and all is finished with a kidnapping/killing gone awry, and this also explains why call didn't come in on the 26th as Arndt was thinking.

Off the hook.
For nearly 16 years.

 

[dodie20]

I think that was just PR trying to give everyone the false impression that she didn't know what happened to JB. I believe PR did know what happened. Knew what, who, and why.

yes, but I also got the sense that PR was worried about what her mother would find out about her. At times, PR came across as very childlike, and IMO, this was one of those times. IMO, it was a very immature and childish reaction to her mother dying. It reminded me of a young girl worried about what her mother would think, after catching her in a lie. But, if PR Was involved in JB's death, it's moo that her mother knew her so well, that she probably already had an idea . moo

 

[UKGuy]

yes, but I also got the sense that PR was worried about what her mother would find out about her. At times, PR came across as very childlike, and IMO, this was one of those times. IMO, it was a very immature and childish reaction to her mother dying. It reminded me of a young girl worried about what her mother would think, after catching her in a lie. But, if PR Was involved in JB's death, it's moo that her mother knew her so well, that she probably already had an idea . moo

dodie20,
ITA. And why did we hear nothing from the Paughs, no charities or foundations to honor JonBenet or find her killer?

Patsy knew her mother knew, not to mention her father!


.

 

[cynic]

PR wrote the note. Maybe she had some input from JR, but she put the pen to paper and wrote. Face it, doubters, PR wrote the note.

It’s one of life’s absolutes; death, taxes, and Patsy wrote the note.

 

[redheadedgal]

That's a lot of force. A nine-year-old would be capable of that much force I have no doubt but it would have to be very intensional, not an accident. You don't hit someone hard enough to do that kind of damage by accident. You do it purposefully, with the intent to 'at least' hurt, if not kill...

you sure? if a 7 yr old can do it by accident...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8195170&postcount=427"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - James Kolar's New Book Will Blow the Lid off the JonBenet Ramsey Investigation[/ame]

 

[redheadedgal]

Dodie20 - You have made some good points in your recent posts which give pause to looking at BR as JB's perp. Most convincing statement is that if LE did have reason to suspect BR, why would they keep investigating and looking at the parents, and then go after JMK...

the JMK farce/fiasco was all DA's office...

 

[madeleine]

I'm curious...

If you knew what caused the head bash, would it change who you would consider to be the person who caused it?
.

Nope.....

And I would add another question,curious what you guys think,if you knew for sure that the marks on her back/face/neck were caused by a toy ,would that change your theory?

btw,question for those who know more anatomy than I do....could that skull fracture have been caused by the handle of a knife?
not sure where I am going with this but I was thinking about Burke mentioning that a knife was involved in his sister's killing+his knife found down in the basement...wonder if there is some sort of link here?

 

[midwest mama]

the JMK farce/fiasco was all DA's office...

I need to clarify my earlier post. I should not have referred to the investigative process that might have been tainted by the R's as "LE". My Bad!! The major glitches were due to the DA's involved in the case. I recognize that. And most of the BPD detectives and investigative team got a bad shake too many times during the process - not getting records or warrants that would have helped them.

The R's probably didn't feel it would be necessary to worry about those officers. They knew who the "higher ups" were who could make things happen for them, and I have no doubt they all did what they did. Besides, the R's could look more innocent and cooperative if they didn't mess with the investigating officers or investigative reporters.