What does Kolar say about

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Maureen92, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Flatlander

    Flatlander Member

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    When I was reading this thread about how young boys don't kill this is the young man that keep coming into my mind. And oh, yes they do commit horrific crimes; perfect example. I am sorry for Robie's family and their lose.
     


  2. Roy23

    Roy23 Well-Known Member

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    I lean IDI but JR's comments concerning the morning are alarming. It could mean nothing but it could mean something. So I have changed in some ways since before reading the book. He brings this on himself and they should get their butts to Boulder and start talking or explaining. The Ramsey's and the BPD need to have a relationship now.
     
  3. Flatlander

    Flatlander Member

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    Thank you so much for this link: It's states some things I had been addressing for some time on websleuths:
    1) page 151: Barbara Fernie's statment has changed my mind about maybe Doug had a sleep over with Burke.

    2) Boulder investigators did get one preliminary opportunity to speak with Burke, however, and Detective Fred Patterson had the foresight to scramble to the White residence not long after the discovery of JonBenét’s body. This interview took place at approximately 1500 hours on the afternoon of December 26, 1996, and a woman at the residence, identifying herself as Burke’s grandmother, sat in on the interview. The transcript of the recording was the first glimpse I had into Burke’s thought processes - Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?, James Kolar, page 346

    3) Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.
    Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.” - Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 353
    When asked again what he thought had happened, Burke advised without hesitation that he knew what had happened to JonBenét and that she had been killed. He stated that he thought someone had quietly carried her downstairs to the basement and that person had then either stabbed JonBenét or struck a blow to her head with a hammer.
    A chill ran down the back of my neck as I watched Burke twice physically imitate the act of striking a blow with his right arm during his casual discussion of this matter.
    Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 353

    4) Barbara Fenie asking why Burke was still sleeping and it wasn't like him to be sleeping he's a early riser like Doug. So, I think if Doug was there that night the R's would have told the F's what the boys did. I don't think she would have brought it to everyones attention that it was unusual and not normal Burke still sleeping. I think Burke staying bed looked very suspicious.

    5) This chapter on the 911 call is definitive. Team Ramsey will be livid.
    Kolar's explains the call and that the actual 911 dispatcher was the person who first alerted LE to the "voices" on the end of the tape. She heard them FIRST HAND. Kolar details that the enhanced 911 tape elicited numerous independent conclusions about the actual words and voices heard by Aerospace and the BPD rep who went to review the enhanced tape. As Thomas told us, they all came to the same conclusion as to what was said and the gender and age of the speakers. Thank you, Chief Kolar. I know right now you're thinking of much more than this case, with the horrible attack in Aurora and the resulting devastating tragedy of the victims. Our hearts and prayers go out to all. But you have put to rest a long debated piece of evidence: the enhanced 911 call is real and it's evidence that holds up: three speakers were recorded in the house on the 911 call that morning.
    So we have definitive proof Burke was up and standing close enough to his parents for his voice to register on the phone receiver as Patsy made her 911 call. The 911 dispatcher heard it. The independent voice technicians heard it.
    THE RAMSEYS LIED. BURKE WAS NOT ASLEEP AND/OR IN BED THROUGH EVERYTHING THAT MORNING, AS THE RAMSEYS CLAIMED. HE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE NEXT TO THEM.
    Maybe that's one reason Patsy hung up on the dispatcher so quickly, she didn't get the receiver placed correctly and the call didn't disconnect. Patsy didn't want the dispatcher to hear Burke's voice and John's reply.
    Which also raises another important detail which could have possibly over looked but addressed here: The phone in the basement could have been used to call 9-11 not the one in the kitchen. I have an old land line (several aamof)
    here in my house and if you don't hang up the receiver correctly when they are lying down you haven't actually hung up. This has happened to be on many occassions. It's not a button you push you have to hang up the phone.

    6) STINES AT THE HOUSE THE MORNING OF THE 26th? News to me!
    Over the course of interview, conducted on January 1, 1997,
    Barb Fernie shared a concern that had raised a question for her.
    As things were developing in the house on the morning of
    December 26th, she had begun to ask if Burke had awakened
    yet. She was aware that like her son, Burke was an early riser
    and typically got up in the morning around 5:30 a.m. She and her
    husband had been at the house for a while, and like others,
    were beginning to wonder if Burke was sitting up in his bedroom,
    awake and alone, while all of the commotion was going on
    downstairs.
    She pointed out a discrepancy that created some additional
    concern for her. She told the investigators that Patsy Ramsey had
    told her on the morning of December 26th
    that she had just “given
    the ransom note to John,” after finding it on the spiral staircase.

    More importantly, however, Mrs. Fernie stated that she didn’t
    know Patsy had screamed out for her husband that morning.
    She apparently was under the impression, based on her conversation
    with Patsy on the morning of the kidnapping, that she had
    somehow just handed off the note to her husband. Several days
    later, it didn’t make sense to her that Burke would not have been
    awakened when Patsy screamed John’s name.

    Mrs. Fernie had been pondering the question: If John
    Ramsey had been able to hear Patsy scream from his bathroom on
    the 3rd floor of the house, why not Burke? His bedroom was just
    down the hall.

    MOO - I'm wondering about the sleepover?
     
  4. eileenhawkeye

    eileenhawkeye Active Member

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    #2: 1500 hours is 3 PM. Nedra was in Boulder by then? I believe in JBR's obituary, it said John's parents lived in Florida, and I also don't see how they could have arrived in Boulder that soon.
     
  5. Whaleshark

    Whaleshark New Member

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    So when Burke is discussing her strangulation and head hit with Doug, how did Burke 'supposedly' know about what happened to her at that time? If he really was never told by anyone, then we know why he knows...

    But it's always been a point of confusion as to whether he was told or not about how she died, or if he already 'knew' because he was directly involved.

    Ramseys of course denied discussing it with him ever. But of course we know he was even up during the 911 call...

    So, I mean, was it not 100% giveaway for the detective to hear him describing the death, if he supposedly wasn't there or involved, or was it presumed or known that someone else - of all those people, told Burke what happened, or whatever? Did he supposedly see her body being brought up, or was he already removed from the house at that time?

    Trying to establish if there was an answer as to anyone having 'supposedly' informed him of the strangulation and hitting on the head for him to discuss it with Doug, if he 'supposedly' wasn't supposed to know what happened to her -- innocent explanation for him to have found out (overheard adults talking about it at the Whites, etc.) and then be discussing it with Doug, or if there was no opportunity for him to have known otherwise, and him describing it was a dead giveaway of firsthand knowledge?

    I mean, for us to know the answer to this, of course, we have to know the exact timeline of where he was with witnesses at all times, aside from the knowledge of him being up and involved already - awake, etc... I'm just saying, does it slamdunk the BDI theory, or is there other possible discussion from Kolar, statements, etc. in which Burke 'supposedly' could have heard about the manner of death and then was discussing it with Doug.

    Cuz this is the first we have heard about him talking about it like that - that day, that early... only have we heard about him talking to the counselor - asking him if he knew how she died - he knew she was killed.

    But did he know she was killed by strangulation and hit on head (or stabbed, as he says, of course) from overhearing people talk, or being informed, or his own knowledge?

    I know we know he was involved -- I'm asking is it definitized once and for all due to this piece of information we have now, because he for sure wouldn't have known that otherwise, supposedly, based on the timeline of where he was at that day, or could he possibly have 'supposedly' overheard it or was told it, and it's not for sure?

    This is not a question about him having any knowledge or involvement at all -already know, yes - but a question of the possibility of being able to confirm, based on this, his direct involvement and/or firsthand knowledge, once and for all...
     
  6. ozazure

    ozazure Active Member

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    If the adult Ramseys' covered for Burke, as if Burke is responsible for JonBenet's abuse and murder, that night would have been a continuation and escalation of events transpiring for a period of time.

    The dynamics I spoke of earlier - parents get disenfranchised when their efforts to curb behaviour are unsuccessful. Trained professionals make slow or no headway with people who have neurological or personality disorders, most parents don't stand much of a chance against it. If parents reach a state like learned helplessness, they now have two problems, the behaviours causing them upset, and their own failure to mitigate it. This might be their first significant challenge they cannot surmount in life, and it is very damaging to their self image. Our strongest impulse is to avoid pain and discomfort, physical and emotional. So now they must start minimising the impact of the child's behaviour, they ignore or deny. They no longer put much effort into discipline to avoid the emotional pain of failure to affect change. They keep to themselves distressing incidents because if others know their failure to act will be questioned, they will see their own poor self image reflected back at them. The child goes unchecked but for the parents the situation is more tolerable.

    I don't think it would be a verbalised or rational discussion about what they hope to achieve by covering-up. That would require a degree of insight into their shame at exposing their failure, and how deeply they value their public image, and their conflicted feelings about their child. It would have just been their emotional impulse to do it.

    Another benefit of creating this awful coverup, there is further mental and emotional distraction from the horrible truth. Yourself innocent, you do not know how the intruder went about it. For the rest of your life this is the framework with which you talk about her murder, it is a safe haven from the truth.
     
  7. Flatlander

    Flatlander Member

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    To further quote from FFJ:
    Although we were unaware of it at the time, the police had interrogated Burke quite extensively on the morning of December 26 while he had been at the Whites’. Police cannot legally question a child without a parent or guardian’s permission. They claimed in their written report that they had received permission from his grandmother to do the interview. (At the time his maternal grandmother, Nedra Paugh, was in Atlanta, and his paternal grandmother had died before Burke was born.) The police tape-recorded the session. However, we didn’t learn about this interrogation until Burke was subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury in 1999.
    Death of Innocence, John and Patsy Ramsey, page 31
     
  8. Flatlander

    Flatlander Member

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    I got my original information here:

    It was a first for me as well to hear that BR had been questioned by the BPD the 26th @ the White's before his parent's arrived. I guess you will come to the same conclusion as I did when learning about his discussion with DS - how did he know? His parents stated that they never talked to him about JB and how she passed and didn't know about his prior knowledge before the GJ. But we both know that the R's said a lot of things they simply don't remember, HTH. Also I just listened to Kolar's radio broadcast with Tricia and he didn't even want to discuss BR period. Interesting!
     
  9. Flatlander

    Flatlander Member

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    I thought I should share this with you:
    http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96736&highlight=Che+Guevara#shine 3
     
  10. Whaleshark

    Whaleshark New Member

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    Well I did know about them sending someone to question him that morning over there...

    But what I didn't know was that he was having a discussion with Doug about the strangling and the hitting on the head, that sounded like they were describing a regular tv show, that the investigator or policeman over there, overheard.... That is new information.

    I knew he described to a counselor later about his sister's death, and all that involved....

    The other side of that too, though, is.... Say if he is the one who killed her and was describing it in detail like nothing.... If there would be no fear of anything to hide, no conscience of wrongdoing.... There is a serious mental and/or emotional issue going on there- Antisocial personality disorder? Autism after all? Cruel revenge jealousy issues - emotionally disturbed? Detached due to his own abuse?

    ..... Or, he didn't do it anyway and there was nothing for him to feel guilt about - and he was just repeating what he heard happened to her - but that doesn't fit well either, because there was still no grief that we are hearing of... I mean, either way, the child's response is abnormal and/or inappropriate based on the descriptions.... Even his responses in interviews - all cold.

    There's definitely a reason his records were made unavailable...

    I want my book already.
     
  11. qtc

    qtc Member

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    Burke also says that JB was stabbed, which wasnt the case, so who knows?
     
  12. Whaleshark

    Whaleshark New Member

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    Unless you consider that she was 'stabbed' with the paintbrush in her vagina....
     
  13. ILikeToBendPages

    ILikeToBendPages Well-Known Member

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    She was "stabbed" in her vagina by a paintbrush.

    never mind. I was reading and posted before I got to the last one
     
  14. txsvicki

    txsvicki Active Member

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    The ramseys didn't even know that jonbenet had been bashed in the head on the 26th did they? Burke could easily have known or heard adults say she was in the basement but there was no reason for him to assume any manner of death at such a young age.
     
  15. katydid23

    katydid23 Well-Known Member

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    If Burke was the killer then I think he would have done more crimes in the past years. JMO
     
  16. Whaleshark

    Whaleshark New Member

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    Not necessarily, especially if he's protected by lawyers, counselors, his dad, etc. for the rest of his life.... They will make sure he stays under the radar, doesn't ever talk, and has his future protected, if he's the one who did it, and they staged and covered up to protect him in the first place.
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Flatlander,
    And for those that wondered how could we ever find out if there was a non-disclosure order slapped on everyone involved?

    This is an example, and if you feel energised go through the whole case, and consider points of contact between Burke and others, and ask was this investigated, if not why not?


    .
     
  18. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    Wow. Thank you. Brilliant, as well.

    I think most of us can relate to it this way, being parents and knowing that sometimes we fail and have to do just what you said: try to live with the repercussions of that.

    Denial is so powerful. So powerful.

    It's a defense mechanism which helps us get through situations we can't resolve or accept any other way.

    I am going to keep your assessment close by, because you explain so well the psychology of this crime.
     
  19. redheadedgal

    redheadedgal Well-Known Member

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    everyone says this about karla homolka... that she will re-offend... but SEVEN years after getting out of prison she still hasn't...
     
  20. KoldKase

    KoldKase New Member

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    You know, I think there's an element here that's getting lost in the cold, hard light of day.

    Siblings fight. Sometimes quite brutally. That doesn't result in all of them going on to be adult abusers. Usually parents bring training and socializing into the equation, and that's how we learn.

    It's also hard for parents to supervise children every minute of every day, after all. And does that mean being present, at their side, every second? I don't think that's realistic for any parent, and maybe unhealthy going to another extreme.

    In truth, it's probably a miracle most of us reach adulthood, considering the nature of children in general.

    The reason there is an age limit on charging a child with a crime is called "intent": if a child's brain development and experience are at a stage where the child has no ability to truly grasp the reality of death or its finality, they can't be accused of meaning to end the life of someone. A child also cannot be held accountable for miscalculating strength and resulting injury in a fast growing body. Now factor in just pure accident, which even we adults sometimes have.

    In these days of videogames, I wonder if even older children aren't confused about what being "dead" means, as the characters just start over in a new game.

    If Burke was in some way involved in the series of events that night, what I find incriminating for the Ramseys are the older injuries, especially the prior molestation. If they knew about that, even if neither of them was the perpetrator, then it was their duty to protect JonBenet AND Burke.

    Clearly they failed miserably there.
     

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