what does the BLOOD tell us

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    according to the sources available in books and online blood was found:

    on JB's panties (her blood)
    on her inner legs (was cleaned up,her blood)
    on the nightgown (JR said the gown shouldn't have been in the basement,why?!) (I assume it was her blood)
    on JB's pillow (I assume it was her blood)

    I always thought that she died or what happened happened when she was wearing the pink nightgown,after she was put to bed by her parents.

    The blood and where it was found+JB wearing the nightgown (which was conveniently changed with the other clothes in the cellar staging) tells me the crime scene is the bedroom.

    Makes sense that she was then moved to the basement (carried in that blanket) for the clean-up (maybe they were afraid neighbors might see light in the house and wonder) and the staging.They forgot the nightgown next to her body.(this is a very important detail in this case IMO)

    What happened in the bedroom.Probably sexual assault,she screamed,head bash and she was choked in order to be silenced.
    What happened in the wine cellar.She was cleaned up,redressed,the ligature was applied in order to cover up the original neck bruises and the tape was put on her mouth,her hands were tied suggesting kidnapping.Then the RN was written.

    Just a theory.I always considered that the blood traces in a murder case tell a huge part of the story.Any thoughts?
     
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  3. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    another thing:cops claim JR's first statement was that he read to JB,this means she was put to bed and I am SURE she wasn't put to bed wearing the party clothes duh.never bought that.
     
  4. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    JOHN RAMSEY: It wouldn't be, no,
    6 it would be unusual for her to have those on.
    7 Leggings, kind of just a regular nightgown. She
    8 didn't always wear a nightgown to bed. If she
    9 was awake when she went to bed, she got into a
    10 nightgown
    and brushed her teeth, got into bed.
    11 But if she was asleep, we usually just tried to
    12 make her comfortable, make sure she was warm.
    13 Didn't go into the trouble of getting her into a
    14 nightgown, necessarily. Sometimes she had a tee
    15 shirt on.


    JOHN RAMSEY: I laid her on the
    21 bed. I didn't -- I don't remember the cover,
    22 if the bed was made or not, but I laid her on
    23 the bed. Because I knew Patsy would follow up
    24 to put her nightgown on
    and get her ready for
    25 bed.
    0498



    LOU SMIT: We have heard
    16 that a Barbie nightgown was one of her
    17 favorite nightgowns. What can you tell us
    18 about that?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I think she had a
    20 Barbie nightgown, yeah, as I recall. Pink,
    21 maybe.

    22 LOU SMIT: The night you put
    23 her in bed, do you remember anything about
    24 a Barbie nightgown?
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: When I put
    0686
    1 her to bed she had on, when I laid her
    2 down in the bed, she had on what she had
    3 worn to the Whites. She had that same
    4 shirt on when I found her.
    (<<BLAH!this is a lie IMO)


    JR doesn't recall so many important things but he does recall a lot about the pink gown.and he's confused (?) about the gown being in the cellar.not having problems with the blanket though.WHY?did he even know there was blood on the gown?
    this nightgown is important to him.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    madeleine,
    This is the conventional view, but JonBenet may have been assaulted elsewhere, then relocated to her bedroom, which was setup to appear as if an intruder had killed JonBenet?

    If you think the the wine-cellar crime-scene is a last minute staging then why was JonBenet left in her own bedroom for so long, what was the issue?

    If the blood-stains have not been arrived at by cross-contamination, then they place an assaulted and bleeding JonBenet in her bedroom, which as we already know, is redundant since the 911 call has as its subject an abduction.

    John Ramsey's version of events is inconsistent with both the autopsy results e.g. pineapple residue in her stomach, and Burke Ramsey's statement that she walked into the house. Both these independent statements corroborate each other.

    The importance regarding the pink nightgown is that it likely formed part of a prior staging. JonBenet was possibly redressed in it and placed onto her bed, where the pillow was then blood-stained. Otherwise why bother with a convoluted legend about putting JonBenet straight to bed, when you can say what JR. did indeed say, line perfect, that JonBenet would dress herself in that nightgown.

    The pineapple snack and the size-12's demolish the Ramsey version of events. At some point after her snack JonBenet was sexually molested e.g. Coroner Meyer states this. Some kind of altercation followed which involved JonBenet being whacked on the head, possibly her windpipe being compressed and her body being assaulted manually or with some instrument?

    Without the evidence of molestation PDI due to wetting the bed should be the front-runner, you have to wonder why it was ever given first billing in Steve Thomas' book?

    Its possible that PDI is indeed the right theory as it may have occured after she had been molested and then wet the bed, calling on Patsy for assistance which led to the altercation?

    Not sure what you mean here. My interpretation is that the nightgown was deliberately placed into the wine-cellar. I also think there will be other items, in the wine-cellar, that should not be there. Consider those dolls, just what are they doing in a dusty, dark cellar? Bear in mind when Patsy stated she recognized the Barbie Doll, no more was asked about dolls per se.

    Actually I am no longer so certain that Patsy's story about these Christmas gifts being placed in the wine-cellar out of the childrens reach, appears credible.

    There is nothing about the wine-cellar per se, that would stop Burke from gaining entry. The latch might prevent JonBenet entry, but there were no gifts for her, were there?

    Revising, I think its possible that most of the relevant contents of the wine-cellar have been placed there because they form part of a prior crime-scene. Patsy did not need to open all the gifts that were opened, since she wrapped them she would have known what was what. So as far as I am concerned there is an inconsistency here.

    At a minimum artifacts from a prior crime-scene were dumped into the wine-cellar along with the opened gifts, since these have been transparently opened.

    The intention was to claim someone has kidnapped JonBenet, hide any obvious evidence in the wine-cellar along with JonBenet, and if she was not found the Ramsey's intended leaving Boulder ASAP.

    Also why would the size-12's still be lying down in the dusty cellar when the Ramsey's were due in Atlanta the following day, whereupon at some point the size-12's were intended to be handed over?

    There is obviously some connnection between the dolls left in the wine-cellar and JonBenet's death?




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  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The size 12s weren't handed over until 5 years later. When JR tried to plan the getaway plane, I am sure they weren't thinking about taking the panties along to hand over to LE. The rest of the never-found panties were hidden and taken from the house, either that night by the Rs or by Patsy's sister when she raided the house. There is also a possibility that any one of the R "friends" who were there that morning may have been given some "items" to take out of the house, though that might have been risky in case they might have been kept for blackmail or simply a matter of conscience.
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Of course not, but was it not the R's position that Patsy intended to take the underwear with her to Atlanta, as a gift for Jenny. This predates Patsy's legend about placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, which few accept as fact?

    That is prior to the White's party, is it safe to assume that Patsy intended to take the size-12's with her to Atlanta, otherwise why bother with the purchase?

    Has to be Patsy's sister, a police car filled with household items, and not a question asked, except for: which MacDonalds Maam?

    I'm assuming all the gifts in the wine-cellar were opened, if so, why? Does this mean the last gift opened was the size-12's?

    What I am questioning is the RDI assumption that the size-12's gift package was opened in the wine-cellar. They may have been located somewhere else in the house, particularly if you intend them to fly with you, the day after the White's party?

    Also what are those dolls doing down in the wine-cellar? They never arrived via static cling, thats for certain. Could JonBenet have spurned the Barbie Doll as a gift, a continuation of her discontent with her Christmas gift, or was it intended to be given to JonBenet in Atlanta.

    Were the dolls part of a prior fabricated crime-scene? I doubt a Barbie Nightgown and Barbie Doll found in close proximity is simply coincidental.

    The simplest explanation is that they were Christmas gifts opened in the search for the size-12's, but surely some packages, by size alone, would suggest these are not the size-12's.

    Since the Christmas gifts are not extremely valuable then I doubt they would be used as a motive by an intruder. So it seems more likely they formed part of a prior crime-scene staging.

    Not unless you wish to advance Gift Rage as part of the motive for JonBenet's assault, e.g. she found the Christmas gifts and opened them?

    Whatever the reason I reckon the Christmas gifts, dolls, nightgown etc were dumped in the wine-cellar along with JonBenet, so to clear the path for the Abduction Staging.

    This brings me to question another RDI point. The ligature and paintbrush handle, why was this done? In a sense it contradicts the kidnapping scenario, so would it not predate the decision to adopt the kidnapping strategy? And once done, could hardly be undone?

    So I am speculating that a prior crime-scene was created in JonBenet's bedroom, with her dressed in the pink nightgown, possibly with the dolls lying beside her, because as John Ramsey stated, this is what she would dress herself in for bed. The ligature and paintbrush is placed around her neck, all to fabricate a bedtime assault by an intruder.

    When the decision was taken to revise this for a Kidnapping, all the obvious evidence is relocated down to the wine-cellar, hidden out of sight. Just as the size-12's and size-6 underwear was hidden from view?


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  8. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    I think I recall reading that Patsy told LE that she had intended to mail the panties to Jenny before Christmas but didn't get to it, and figured she'd do it when they got home from their vacation. I don't think they planned to take the panties to Atlanta, because they hadn't originally intended to go to Atlanta. That was an impromptu get-away plan (that failed). Their vacation plans were Charlevoix and Florida cruise.
    I am not sure there was more than one doll. There was a Barbie still in the box lying on the floor a few feet away from the body. I don't think there was another doll in the WC. There is no evidence that the American Girl Doll was there. There is speculation that the piece of duct tape was taken from the American Girl doll's neck, where it may have been placed (according to the doll's manufacturer's suggestion). That doesn't mean the doll was in the WC, though it may have been in her bedroom. The doll was missing anyway, wasn't it? And a "replacement" doll was ordered under mysterious circumstances and mailed to JR's office at Access Graphics after JB's death.
    JB couldn't get into the wineceller herself if the latch was in place (she couldn't reach it). That was a creepy, dark room. If I were 6 years old I'd never go in there. But then- I do not believe Patsy hid gifts in there. She may not have had a tidy home, but that WC was too filthy to imagine Patsy putting gifts in there. I also cannot picture Patsy bashing JB because she found some presents. The initial events may have taken place in JB's bedroom, but I don't think there was a staged scene in there with her dead body. For one, I believe both parents staged the body and BR was not involved in that. I don't think they'd stage her body in her room, just down the hall from BR. That would be horrible for him to have seen, regardless of whether he may have been involved in the crime. If JB had been killed in her bedroom and carried down to the basement, the staging took place there. The paint brush was there, and I can't see them breaking the brush in the basement (there were splinters from the broken brush in the basement, so we know it was broken there) and taking the broken brush back up to her bedroom.
    She may have been sexually assaulted in her bedroom, and the head bash may have taken place there, but I think the garrote was made in the basement. I think she died in the basement, wearing the long johns (they had urine on them). I think if she was wearing the nightgown, it was for the sexual assault and if it got blood on it, it was changed for that reason. Possible she was carried down to the basement in the pink nightie and changed there.
    But a more likely scenario (for me) is that she did nit wear the pink nightie at all that night, it was pulled out of the dryer by mistake, stuck to the white blanket, and the blood drops/spatters on it got there accidentally from the act of wiping her down. Whether the blood on the nightie was in the form of drops, splatters, or smears is very important, and it has never been established. It could be a way of determining if she was assaulted wearing it, if the blood got on there because it was on the hand of whoever took the nightie off her, or if it got bloodied from being in proximity to her as she was wiped down.
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Yes you are correct, I mixed Charlevoix and Atlanta up. Here is what Patsy said:
    Patsy's statement seems at odds with the actual evidence. Also during the interview Patsy cannot remember is she purchased one or two sets of Bloomingdales. Why would that matter, not unless there are no Bloomingdales in JonBenet's underwear drawer? Yet Patsy states JonBenet chose her underwear, which surely would not be a size-12, curious that. Conclusion, Patsy has been advised to not remember.

    Tricia is quoted somewhere saying there was more than one doll, maybe her radio show?

    Whatever the explanation is for the Pink Nightgown, static cling, does not do it for me. The Ramseys would have seen the nightgown at some point either outside or on the inside of the wine-cellar bear in mind the white blanket was wrapped around JonBenet, this would have exposed the nightgown on the outside, and when JonBenet was laid on it, the nightgown would have been visible, if it was on the inside. Blood contamination suggests visibility too, even if its only accidental.

    Then there is blood on the Pink Nightgown, which alike the blood on JonBenet's pillow slip, is significant. There was blood on her underwear and smears on her thighs, but no blood on her longjohns or on the carpet in the basement, how so? There might be blood on the carpet in her room, since a square of carpet was removed. All suggesting a common location for its origin, otherwsie you might expect blood on some basement object?

    There are three variables for JonBenet's bedtime clothes e.g. Pink Nightgown, Pink Top & Bottoms the latter appears unaccounted for, and the Gap Top. I find it curious that the pink top can be found, but not the pink bottoms. I reckon its safe to assume JonBenet was not wearing the Gap Top to bed, that is Ramsey staging, so leaves the other two items to be explained away. Looks to me as if the Pink Bottoms were forensically contaminated along with JonBenet's size-6 underwear, so took the same route out of the house?

    Here is an observation, whilst on the underwear topic: I think the pants and underwear found on JonBenet's bathroom floor were deposited there when she came back from riding her bike outdoors that afternoon, tellingly, we have not been told if they featured a Day-Of-The-Week or were Bloomingdales, and I reckon that is significant? e.g. Is this evidence consistent with whatever the size-12's suggest?

    This allows for the possibility that JonBenet wore no underwear to the White's Party? Patsy says JonBenet never had a bath that night, since she normally supervised JonBenet bathing.
    Patsy does not want to discuss JonBenet's underwear, but will discuss stuff about the red turtleneck, mmm.

    Here is Patsy on the Days-Of-The-Week, yet if she selected the Wednesday size-12's, why answer in the negative, does that not mean any pair of size-6 underwear would have satisfied the wine-cellar staging?
    Just in case there is any doubt here is a quote from Death of Innocence
    After leaving the White's home, the Ramseys drove around Boulder delivering Christmas gifts. JonBenet was allegedly asleep in the car. So this must mean Patsy was in the basement dealing with gifts at some point, or wherever she did it? I forget but did John not travel to the airfield with some gifts to preload the plane?


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  10. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    JR supposedly spent some time going to his plane, either Christmas Eve or earlier Christmas Day.
    I recall another interview with Patsy where she tells LE that she would have noticed if JB had NO underwear when she dressed her for bed after they returned home from the White's. She says it would have been unusual, and she would have noticed if she was not wearing any panties at all. This was the interview with LE where they discuss the fact that the panties found on JB were much too large for her. Patsy fudges about it, claiming that there isn't much difference between the sizes of "these little panties" as she puts it. There might not be much difference between a size 6 and a size 8, but there is plenty of difference between a size 6 and a size 12.
     
  11. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    My interpretation of much of what Patsy says, is the she was advised to not remember since at that point the status of the size-12's was unknown, but she was claiming to have purchased a set. We now know the outcome on that subject, but initially the R's legal advisors were likely playing it safe.

    On the size-12's, since they were intended to have been sent to Charlevoix then there is no reason for Patsy to hide them away in the wine-cellar. JonBenet was present when Patsy purchased them, they did not fit JonBenet, so she is not going to want to wear them. Presumably she has her own set.

    So the RDI assumption that the partially opened gifts in the wine-cellar represent the consequence of a search for the size-12's, appears very weak. Particularly when Patsy would know where the size-12's were since she purchased them and knew who had gift wrapped them. Assume JonBenet had lived and it was Burke's birthday was she intending to open his gift to see if it was the right one? Or any other gift, Duh!

    Patsy's answer represents an after the fact response to a situation she never thought would arise. For the R's it was the Federal Penitentiary or Abroad. There must have been some straight talking between Patsy and John the days after JonBenet was found.

    I reckon there are probably other items dumped somewhere else in the basement that are the result of the staging. Those Christmas gifts need a closer look at, and why they ever ended up in the wine-cellar. Never mind that Barbie Doll!



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  12. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The panties weren't intended to be sent to Charlevoix. They were intended to be mailed to Jenny at her home, wherever she lived. She didn't live in Charlevoix.
    I don't think JB was with Patsy when she bought the panties. If she had been, she would certainly have asked for a set of her own, and Patsy would have bought them in her proper size (which she may have done anyway). Patsy made TWO trips to NYC that year- one with JB and one without.
     
  13. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    the thing is she bled also AFTER her panties were changed,which means it wasn't just a scratch down there:furious:
    something really bad happened that night,this murder was violent.that's why I never bought the "just an accident" theory.cracked skull,bleeding vagina (probably bad cause that's why she needed to be cleaned up and her panties changed),neck bruises.someone really lost it in that house!the question is WHO lost it.not why and "how come if there is no history of violence" (could be tons of reasons which make someone snap).and WHY the other one went along with the cover-up.

    guess most sense makes the "daddy molested her and mommy lost it" (jealousy,rage,attention seeking)??DUNNO!

    but taking all of this into consideration there MUST be a HUGE reason why the other one kept his/her mouth quiet and they never broke up but continued to raise the son together.

    was mommy tired of the child getting ALL the attention?first the pageants,now also daddy's?
    or is daddy not only an abuser but also a cold blooded monster?then why did mom went along with covering up?

    ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:banghead:
    it drives me nuts!
     
  14. Squishified

    Squishified Active Member

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    I may be wrong (and trust me it wouldn't be the first time), but I thought Patsy made one trip to get the panties. She got one package in JB's size and one in Jenny's size. The panties were from Bloomindale's, which I imagine Patsy thought was wonderful. "We're so rich and important that we even buy our underwear at Bloomie's!"
     
  15. Squishified

    Squishified Active Member

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    Respectfully snipped. I think this is something we all can agree on.

    O/T : madeleine, I see that it's almost time for your baby to arrive. Congratulations!
     
  16. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

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    sorry for OT too but THANK YOU! :)
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    That was me being lazy, it was easier to write Charlevoix than Jenny's house etc.

    It is notable that Patsy had not mailed them!

    The salient point, is that Patsy had no reason to keep the size-12's gift-wrapped, if they were, down in the wine-cellar!

    This makes the RDI assumption about all the Christmas gifts being partially wrapped because someone opened them to find the size-12's, particularly weak, e.g. was the last gift opened the size-12's?

    The reasoning surrounding the size-12's and Christmas gifts is questionable.

    Make of that whatever you like.

    Do you know if it was ever stated anywhere that gift wrapping paper intended for Jenny Davis was found in either the wine-cellar or the basement?



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  18. Squishified

    Squishified Active Member

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    O.K. so now I am more confused than ever. Patsy says she doesn't remember buying one or two packages of panties? I thought that at some point (in some interview) she said that she bought one package for JBR and one for Jenny??
    I could've sworn that JBR had those Bloomies (size 6) in her dresser.
    I used to know this case like the back of my hand, but have now forgot a lot of details. I should have never taken a hiatus from WS! :crazy:
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    madeleine,
    I agree, this aspect of her death is totally under-reported or commented on.

    Not impossible, but why would an intelligent woman such as Patsy ever be jealous of JonBenet in such circumstances, surely any anger would be directed at daddy?

    I reckon whatever the details actually are, someone was molesting JonBenet and very soon after this event someone lost it completely and savagely assaulted JonBenet resulting in her head injury.

    It might be that PDI is correct, but for a completely different reason than we suspect, but prior to this a male Ramsey sexually assaulted JonBenet. Coroner Meyer says so.

    So the question is was the person who sexually assaulted JonBenet the same person who physically assaulted her, resulting in her head injury?

    Answer that, and you are on your way to some kind of resolution.


    Allied with that is the red turtleneck sweater, did it play any part in this final episode, or was it fabricated by Patsy to cover something else up? e.g. MyTwinn doll episode?


    Congratulations on your baby, will it be Christmas joy then?


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  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Squishified,
    We have never been told. But if they were absent, then that along with the questions about the size-12's would have sunk the Ramsey's completely. So there must have been Bloomingdales size-6 underwear in her drawer. We have never been told if there was a pair of Bloomingdales size-6 featring Wednesday in her underwear drawer. To do so could explain the rationale around the size-12'.

    The partially opened Christmas gifts, Barbie Doll, Pink Nightgown found in the wine-cellar have never been explained.

    Patsy's story about her looking for whatever does not make any sense at all!

    This all points to the crime-scene being elsewhere and what was found in the wine-cellar was simply dumped there, out of sight!


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  21. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    She bought the panties on ONE trip, but she made TWO trips to NYC that Fall.
     

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