what does the BLOOD tell us

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    LE said that they found ONLY size 4 and 6 panties in JB's drawers (NO size 12). They never stated whether ANY of the panties found were BLOOMIES Day Of The Week Panties. So it is not certain that there were a set of Bloomies panties in size 6.
    In her interview, Patsy states that she does not remember whether she bought one set or two.
    As a mom myself, you WOULD remember whether you bought a specialty item like that for your own child as well as a niece. I simply do not believe she doesn't remember. I also can't believe that she would buy a set for her niece and not a set for JB. This is yet another instance of "Ramsesia".
     


  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Really, what is it that allows your uncertainty? When there are no size-12's BDP let you know immediately.

    Why did they not tell you there was no Bloomingdales in size-6?




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  3. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    I am puzzled by your question. "They" didn't tell ME anything. I wasn't there.
    What I said was that BPD made NO specific mention of whether any of the size 6 panties they said they found were Bloomies Day Of The Week Panties.
    If you know of a link showing police stating there WERE Bloomies panties in her drawer, let me know.
    I am UNCERTAIN as to whether there were any size 6 BLOOMIES panties in her drawer because I have never seen anywhere any statement by anyone in LE that they found any other Bloomies panties except the pair of size 12 found on JB's body.
    They let it be known that there were no other size 12 panties because when Patsy claims to have put the size 12 panties in JB's drawer, police tell her that they did not find them. They also tell her during this same interview that they found ONLY size 4 and 6 panties in there. They did not mention whether any of the 4 and 6 panties were Bloomies panties.
     
  4. Squishified

    Squishified Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your responses, UKGuy and DeeDee! So, LE found the correct size (for JBR) in her dresser, but they were not the "days of the week" panties??
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Patsy stated that she purchased Bloomingdales underwear for JonBenet, as selected by her. What was conveniently never asked was what size. Patsy emphasized she purchased a set for her niece Jenny Davis e.g. the size-12's.

    In that interview, if there had been no Bloomingdale underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer, then along with telling Patsy about the absence of the size-12's, this would also have been added and asked to explain this?

    I think we can all be certain that there was Bloomingdale underwear in JonBenet's drawer, what is much more salient is whether there was a Wednesday pair in the drawer, Bloomingdales or not?

    The absence of such a pair seals the staging and makes the case RDI!


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  6. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    How can we be certain there are ANY Bloomies panties in the drawer? Police said they found NO size 12 Bloomies panties there, but they did NOT state that they DID find any Bloomies of ANY size. So we can't be certain. If you have a link to a statement showing police did find Bloomies panties, please let me know, because I missed that.
    Now, I happen to believe there were Bloomies panties in JB's own size, and that she was wearing a Wednesday pair that day. And I believe they were bloodied in the assault or were soiled in some way that Patsy feared might implicate her in the death. And I believe these panties were destroyed (in the fireplace?) or removed from the house before LE searched it.
    I agree that their absence seals the staging. BUT we can't be CERTAIN the panties existed in the first place.
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Well Patsy stated she purchased them and BPD never stated they were missing, as were the Bloomingdales size-12's. So why bother to highlight the absence of one size and neglect the other? e.g. Patsy made categoric claims about both Bloomingdales sizes.

    I suspect there was no Wedesday featured Bloomingdales to be found in her drawer, and with Patsy locked into stating she purchased a set of Bloomingdales, which JonBenet chose herself. the missing pair becomes particularly relevant when contrasted with the size-12's.


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  8. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Patsy stated she purchased the size 12 panties for her niece. She said she did not remember if she purchased a set for JB (in her own size). We do not know for CERTAIN if she did. BPD never said they were missing because it was never proved they existed in the first place. They did ask her about it- and she only said she did not recall if she bought two sets or one.
    I do not remember reading where JB was with her when she bought the panties in New York and chose them herself.
    Do you have a link for that or remember where you read that?
    As far as I know, Patsy bought the panties on the trip to New York where she went WITHOUT JB. Patsy made two trips to New York that Fall, one with JB and one without.
     
  9. Squishified

    Squishified Well-Known Member

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    Here is a link that bolsters what DeeDee is saying.


    http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682505/Second%20Floor

    Scroll down a little to get to the underwear discussion. I'm with UKGuy that I SWORE Patsy admitted somewhere that she did indeed buy Day of the Week panties for JBR.
    I'll see if there's any other info out there.
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    I've posted on this topic so much I'm starting to recite it line for line. Now without being pedantic, what I interpret Patsy as stating is she could not remember if she purchased a pack of size-12's for JonBenet, but that she could indeed remember purchasing a set for Jenny Davis.

    Patsy's Atlanta Interview
    Patsy is being deliberately vague, she is attempting to wriggle out of dealing directly with the size-12's. She states she purchased Bloomingdales as selected by JonBenet, then she states she purchased size-12's for Jenny Davis, then she is asked:
    So the interviewer has nailed Patsy to the ground, and she invokes ramnesia to explain away why there will most definitely not be two packs of Bloomingdale size-12's to be found in the house!

    Then again you might be 100% correct that no size-6 Bloomingdales were found in her drawer and that her story about JonBenet selecting her underwear is fabricated to cover for the size-12's?

    Patsy does not state explicitly that JonBenet selected size-6 Bloomingdales, only that they were Day Of The Week Bloomingdales.

    Patsy is explicit here that she made a purchase for JonBenet and one for Jenny Davis. e.g.
    So Patsy might be attempting to deceive her interviewer, and that might be why she is eventually told no size-12's were found anywhere in the house. If correct then along with the pineapple it destroys the Ramsey's credibility?

    So what do you think, was Patsy being deliberately ambiguous, e.g. I purchased size-12's for Jenny Davis, but I forget if I purchased any for JonBenet, e.g. is that any Bloomingdale underwear of any size? Then she goes on to state she gave Jonbenet the size-12's to explain away how JonBenet is discovered wearing them?
     
  11. Squishified

    Squishified Well-Known Member

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    Also, Patsy describes in detail what the packaging on the Bloomies was (rolled up in a plastic tube, if I read it correctly). How does she not remember how many packages she bought? If she was "drawn" to the Bloomies, why did she start at Jenny's size? I have never even thought to buy my nieces underwear (it seems kind of weird). I would think Patsy would be looking at JB's size.
    So, basically, I think she bought 2 sets.
     
  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Squishified,
    Two sets, and what were the sizes?

    No Patsy does not remember she is prompted e.g.
    The interviewer is not so clear here, since although its assumed the subject is Bloomi's days of the week, there is no mention of the size. At this point it is the Bloomingdales allegedly purchased for JonBenet that are being discussed.

    In line number 23 we have a crucial phrase missing e.g. the --, but lets assume its the Bloomingdales size-12's, since they are referred to as Days Of The Week. Then starting at 0081 Patsy states she purchased a similar package for Jenny Davis!

    So there should have been two sets of Bloomingdale size-12's to be found in the Ramsey household?

    Not unless Patsy is lying through her teeth?


    In addition consider how Patsy is prompted:
    Start of the Atlanta Interview
    Here Patsy is again prompted as to when she purchased the size-12's, and for DeeDee249 it has to be the first visit, since on the second JonBenet is participating in the Boulder Christmas Parade.
    So I wonder why BPD informed Patsy that it had to be on her first visit that she purchased the size-12's?


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  13. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    I think Patsy is deliberately being vague about the panties. Obviously, if she bought 2 sets, and one of them was for JB, they would not both be size 12. One set would be for Jenny (size 12) and the other set would be for JB (size 6). I think Patsy remembered exactly how many sets she bought.
    We know that the remaining size 12 panties were not found in the house, and that a package of Bloomies panties in size 12 was sent to Boulder police (via a Ramsey attorney) 5 years later. No other Bloomies panties were mentioned as having been found in the home.
    As far as the remaining size 12 that were sent 5 years later, we ASSUME they were the package from which the Wednesday panties found on JB were taken. Those panties were available at Bloomies for years, though the colors and patterns changed over the years. Bloomingdale's would have been able to identify whether the panties sent to LE by the Rs were consistent with the Day of the Week Bloomies sold in the New York store in 1996. I don't know wether LE ever tried to source those panties. I have not seen anything to indicate that they did.
     
  14. Squishified

    Squishified Well-Known Member

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  15. Squishified

    Squishified Well-Known Member

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    This link has probably been posted before, but I found some interesting quotes I had never read before.
    http://www.rense.com/general11/benet.htm

    The link talks about who testified at the Grand Jury. Linda Hoffman-Pugh had some interesting things to say:
    She said the GJ focused almost exclusively on PR. "It was almost all about Patsy, down to the underwear she had purchased from Bloomingdales. They wanted to know how she related to JB. I felt in my heart they were going to indict Patsy."
    She said she told the GJ that Patsy had become very moody right before Christmas of 1996.
    "I think she had multiple personalities. She'd be in a good mood and then she'd be cranky. She got into arguments with JonBenet about wearing a dress or about a friend coming over."
     
  16. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that the list of people who testified before the GJ consists mostly of people whose testimony would be favorable to the Rs.
     
  17. Limaes

    Limaes Well-Known Member

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    Looking at the profile pic of "Koldkase", I thought of something I have never thought of before. If the sizing of the bloomies on the model are similar to how they would have been on JB, what would happen to the crotch area when a pair of longjohns were pulled over them?

    You would think that the gusset (crotch area) of the bloomies wouldn't sit where it normally would if she was wearing the correct size. Perhaps this is what the coroner means when he says the blood spots on the bloomies don't correspond?

    Also, the gusset area would bunch up somewhat and perhaps make it double up resulting in a kind of padding, which could explain why the blood didn't seep onto the longjohns. Thoughts?
     
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Absolutely, right from the start e.g.
    She knew what was coming and had to have some strategy worked out?

    Well thats how we all expect it should transpire, but does that not mandate there must be some size-6 Bloomingdales in her drawer, or the house?

    Since we have never been told if Bloomingdales were recovered from JonBenet's underwear drawer, or if there is a missing Wednesday pair, I guess this information has been deemed significant?

    Then of course Patsy may not have purchased any underwear for JonBenet at all in Bloomingdales, just the size-12's for Jenny Davis.

    Consider the transcript :
    Here Patsy states she purchased the size-12 Bloomingdales in New York.

    Here she states that JonBenet personally chose the Bloomingdale's size-12's
    So according to Patsy there should really be two packs of Bloomingdale's size-12's. One chosen by JonBenet and the other chosen by Patsy for Jenny Davis!

    How they then arrive at this point is beyond me:

    At no point in the transcript does Patsy state the Bloomingdales that JonBenet selected were actually size-6, so since Det Harmer jumps to Jenny's size-12's, it must be safe to assume that there were Bloomingdale size-6's found in her underwear drawer. Otherwise at this point BPD would have no size-6 or size-12 Bloomingdales, despite Patsy stating she purchased them on her New York trip?

    So Patsy's stategy was simply to play it by ear, she tried the I bought the Bloomingdales for JonBenet, but she selected them herself, with no size mentioned, but when the conversation turns to , are these panties not too large for JonBenet , and LW is interjecting, Patsy states:
    The ambiguity lies in the size feature. Patsy is hoping to pass off JonBenet's underwear, as found in the wine-cellar, as a little something she bought for JonBenet on her New York trip. When that fails, she admits I am sure, mild amnesia here, that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom.

    So I reckon there must have been Bloomingdale size-6 underwear in her drawer, otherwise we would have been told by now. So its a racing certainty that the Bloomingdales Size-6 Wednesday pair is missing, otherwise BPD, Steve Thomas, Holly Smith et-al would have no reason at all for omitting this little detail?


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  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Limaes,
    Well he took them off, so I reckon he means what he says, e.g. he was expecting the blood spots to be located somewhere else, despite the size-12's being too large?

    This could have occurred, it would depend on the amount of blood of course, and with JonBenet voiding her bladder the effect of osmosis should carry some blood through to her longjohns?


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  20. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Without LE stating specifically or having it listed on evidence lists, we still cannot be certain there were Bloomies panties of ANY size in her drawer or that a set was bought for JB in her own size as well as the set bought for Jenny in size 12. Patsy merely stating such does not mandate anything.
    We DO know that NO other size 12 panties were found in her drawer and that the remaining 6 pairs of the size 12 set were sent on to LE 5 years later in their original package. This tells us that Patsy did NOT put them in JB's drawer as she said she did, and it also indicates that only ONE pair was ever removed from the package- the pair that was put on JB that night, which ALSO proved Patsy never put them in her drawer.
     

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