What Is Your Theory?

Ixchel13

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No theory, yet. But a few questions for those who have followed these cases....
From my limited knowledge, it appears that these young men have physical, socioeconomic, and situational similarities (age range, college students, athletic, out with friends, started feeling sick/possibly drugged, or drunk, left group alone, and obviously found dead in water, etc), but is there perhaps a common motive behind why these men were targeted. Is there anything in their past that might connect them?
Did any of these guys have previous allegations of any type in their past? I keep circling back to a vigilante type motive in my mind. I mean no disrespect to these victims, so please forgive if this is totally off base. Did any of these men have a juvenile record, or cases dismissed in their past?
Thanks for helping me catch up on the specific of these cases.

My turn not to be disrespectful, and it's understanding how you at first might feel this is some sort of vigilante killings. But if it is a 'type' of vigilante killings, the victims are not the ones who did anything. It's bad enough that they were targeted, drugged and murdered and yet made to look like they staggered drunkenly into the water.

In no way, shape, or form did these men do anything that caused someone to take the law into their own hands and drown them.Many of them were captains of various sports teams and iirc, none of the vics had anything more than a handful of minor citations among them.
 
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nutkin

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Why does no one consider that this could be a woman or women? Women are often targets of drunk men trying to hit on them in bars. I am not saying that these men are guilty of that, but certainly lots of men are--and that is what makes athletic, good looking men a target. Who could lure a man away from a group of friends? A woman. Who would need to drug a man in order to have the upper hand? A woman. Who would a man not feel intimidated by physically and let his guard down? A woman.
 

Chloebear3

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nutkin-
That’s just it - women are involved. Many of the victims were last seen with a woman or a couple. So they’re definitely involved. And of course nobody would suspect a woman or even a couple. The victims probably felt safe, unfortunately.
 

Ixchel13

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Why does no one consider that this could be a woman or women? Women are often targets of drunk men trying to hit on them in bars. I am not saying that these men are guilty of that, but certainly lots of men are--and that is what makes athletic, good looking men a target. Who could lure a man away from a group of friends? A woman. Who would need to drug a man in order to have the upper hand? A woman. Who would a man not feel intimidated by physically and let his guard down? A woman.

yes, a woman could do the drugging. and be more convincing in getting the vic thrown out. Not saying a woman/women vigilante group couldn't do this but when you read the biographies of these vics, there just isn't any of that there. Only a few of the guys were troubled, and as a group being troubled does not define them. Haven't read any assault charges against any alleged vics.

What you do find are clusters that follow disturbing patterns. Women, men, really doesn't matter, still murdering innocent victims. These guys are NOT deserving victims of vigilante murders! Sorry but I find this idea appalling.
 

Chloebear3

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[QUOTE="These guys are NOT deserving victims of vigilante murders! Sorry but I find this idea appalling.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree!! All I meant is women are involved in the abductions. These victims are NOT to blame for their deaths. They’re not vigilante murders at all. I, too, find that idea appalling. These cases get ignored because the fact that they ARE men and then the way they are murdered, everyone thinks it’s a drunken accident!
My heart just breaks for these victims and their families.
 

Ixchel13

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[QUOTE="These guys are NOT deserving victims of vigilante murders! Sorry but I find this idea appalling.

I totally agree!! All I meant is women are involved in the abductions. These victims are NOT to blame for their deaths. They’re not vigilante murders at all. I, too, find that idea appalling. These cases get ignored because the fact that they ARE men and then the way they are murdered, everyone thinks it’s a drunken accident!
My heart just breaks for these victims and their families.[/QUOTE]

I agree that women are involved. On both levels-- on purpose, and unwittingly.
 

nutkin

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yes, a woman could do the drugging. and be more convincing in getting the vic thrown out. Not saying a woman/women vigilante group couldn't do this but when you read the biographies of these vics, there just isn't any of that there. Only a few of the guys were troubled, and as a group being troubled does not define them. Haven't read any assault charges against any alleged vics.

What you do find are clusters that follow disturbing patterns. Women, men, really doesn't matter, still murdering innocent victims. These guys are NOT deserving victims of vigilante murders! Sorry but I find this idea appalling.


What part of "I am not saying that these men are guilty of that" did you find to be victim blaming? Can you not understand that maybe a woman or women who have been victimized by a specific type of man previously might go out and victimize someone who is similar later on? That is exactly how many serial killers operate -- they cannot exact revenge on the person who victimized them, so they seek out surrogates.
 

Chloebear3

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What part of "I am not saying that these men are guilty of that" did you find to be victim blaming? Can you not understand that maybe a woman or women who have been victimized by a specific type of man previously might go out and victimize someone who is similar later on? That is exactly how many serial killers operate -- they cannot exact revenge on the person who victimized them, so they seek out surrogates.

I understand what you are saying. And there are women involved in these murders, so I do think some of these women could have that agenda where they were victimized in the past by someone, so they got involved with these murderers to exact revenge on someone from their past whom these current victims have no connection. In their warped mind, they are killing their victimizer over and over - which does not make it right but explains why they would get involved with such a murderous group. Am I making sense to what you were explaining? I do believe this could be possible.
 

Ixchel13

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I understand what you are saying. And there are women involved in these murders, so I do think some of these women could have that agenda where they were victimized in the past by someone, so they got involved with these murderers to exact revenge on someone from their past whom these current victims have no connection. In their warped mind, they are killing their victimizer over and over - which does not make it right but explains why they would get involved with such a murderous group. Am I making sense to what you were explaining? I do believe this could be possible.
What part of "I am not saying that these men are guilty of that" did you find to be victim blaming? Can you not understand that maybe a woman or women who have been victimized by a specific type of man previously might go out and victimize someone who is similar later on? That is exactly how many serial killers operate -- they cannot exact revenge on the person who victimized them, so they seek out surrogates.

OK, of course I understand your logic. Here's a different logic: we have a group of killers who like a certain type, and they kill them over and over. THEY are the sick ones, they did something in the past which was probably tied to sexual abuse and perhaps murder. SFK are not vigilante in any way they are sadistic vicious killers who prey on innocent victims who look like their past victims.
 

MindfulDiva

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My turn not to be disrespectful, and it's understanding how you at first might feel this is some sort of vigilante killings. But if it is a 'type' of vigilante killings, the victims are not the ones who did anything. It's bad enough that they were targeted, drugged and murdered and yet made to look like they staggered drunkenly into the water.

In no way, shape, or form did these men do anything that caused someone to take the law into their own hands and drown them.Many of them were captains of various sports teams and iirc, none of the vics had anything more than a handful of minor citations among them.


I'm new here but wanted to point out that we aren't dealing with "rational" people possibly. IF these are vigilante killings they could be delusional and have reasons outside our understanding for their killings.

With that said, individuals who are delusional typically aren't good at hiding their tracks because their delusions would hold them back from being careful with their plans. These individuals are more likely narcissistic psychopaths (antisocial personality). They possibly started as a single person and once successful found trainees who were like minded. Once their trainee was ready to go off on their own they picked up other trainees.

The fact is that like attracts like. People with certain personality profiles tend to find one another, especially if they're searching for it. This would explain how the killings spread so widely. The fact that the murders are so like regular drownings is brilliant because it becomes difficult to sort through and connect dots.

As I'm new, I have no idea if this has already been considered. I'm very interested in this case though so planning on doing a deeper dive over the next month.
 

MindfulDiva

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Why does no one consider that this could be a woman or women? Women are often targets of drunk men trying to hit on them in bars. I am not saying that these men are guilty of that, but certainly lots of men are--and that is what makes athletic, good looking men a target. Who could lure a man away from a group of friends? A woman. Who would need to drug a man in order to have the upper hand? A woman. Who would a man not feel intimidated by physically and let his guard down? A woman.

This is an excellent point. Women have historically committed higher rates of poisoning and drowning than men also from what I understand.
 

Chloebear3

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I'm new here but wanted to point out that we aren't dealing with "rational" people possibly. IF these are vigilante killings they could be delusional and have reasons outside our understanding for their killings.

With that said, individuals who are delusional typically aren't good at hiding their tracks because their delusions would hold them back from being careful with their plans. These individuals are more likely narcissistic psychopaths (antisocial personality). They possibly started as a single person and once successful found trainees who were like minded. Once their trainee was ready to go off on their own they picked up other trainees.

The fact is that like attracts like. People with certain personality profiles tend to find one another, especially if they're searching for it. This would explain how the killings spread so widely. The fact that the murders are so like regular drownings is brilliant because it becomes difficult to sort through and connect dots.

As I'm new, I have no idea if this has already been considered. I'm very interested in this case though so planning on doing a deeper dive over the next month.

I like the way you think! I've been researching these cases for a long time and this makes so much sense. This also explains why none of these perps ever ratted on each other. They don't want to. They don't care what they did to these victims and their families. Why would they tell on one of their cohorts when there's a chance the whole operation could get shut down and ruin their "fun" or whatever their twisted minds think about murder.
 

Chloebear3

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This is an excellent point. Women have historically committed higher rates of poisoning and drowning than men also from what I understand.

Agree. I do believe women are involved. Many of the victims are seen talking to/being followed by a couple - a man and a woman. There are theories of a certain group could be involved (pm me if you want to know who I am referring to - I do not want to post their name on this forum without solid evidence). This group teaches their people to hide in plain sight - men and women.

When I research these cases, I always research from the victim side and not the perpetrator side. I have tried figuring out who could be possibly committing all of these murders. All that got me was a deep rabbit hole and a headache. Kevin Gannon and Lee Gilbertson have stated (I think this may be from their book Drowning in Forensics) that these murderers are nothing like anyone has seen before. This is why LE has difficulty wrapping their head around these murders and are quick to call them accidents/suicides.
 

Ixchel13

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I'm new here but wanted to point out that we aren't dealing with "rational" people possibly. IF these are vigilante killings they could be delusional and have reasons outside our understanding for their killings.

With that said, individuals who are delusional typically aren't good at hiding their tracks because their delusions would hold them back from being careful with their plans. These individuals are more likely narcissistic psychopaths (antisocial personality). They possibly started as a single person and once successful found trainees who were like minded. Once their trainee was ready to go off on their own they picked up other trainees.

The fact is that like attracts like. People with certain personality profiles tend to find one another, especially if they're searching for it. This would explain how the killings spread so widely. The fact that the murders are so like regular drownings is brilliant because it becomes difficult to sort through and connect dots.

As I'm new, I have no idea if this has already been considered. I'm very interested in this case though so planning on doing a deeper dive over the next month.


yes to all you said. For a newbie, you really have more than the general idea.
 

Ixchel13

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This is an excellent point. Women have historically committed higher rates of poisoning and drowning than men also from what I understand.

women have always been considered to be involved. but this doesn't seem like a group of vigilante women, oh no, out to get men who have date raped them, oh no. But, SFK likes to lead people down many, many bogus rabbit holes.
 

Pixi090

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I just watched the movie that’s loosely based on these cases. It got me very interested, so now I’ve been looking up everything online.

My theory... okay, all of these men are taken in public after drinking. I really think this group is comprised of men and women. I think they choose the bar or wherever and then they are there the whole time. I don’t think they interact with the victim. I think they choose they victim, who is always drunk, then follow and take him. The why of it... my theory... is that it’s some sort of initiation/ritual into some weird murder cult.
 

Murder Inc

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My absolute favorite part about the Smiley Face Killer theory that it's propagated by two old cops.
 

Ixchel13

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I just watched the movie that’s loosely based on these cases. It got me very interested, so now I’ve been looking up everything online.

My theory... okay, all of these men are taken in public after drinking. I really think this group is comprised of men and women. I think they choose the bar or wherever and then they are there the whole time. I don’t think they interact with the victim. I think they choose they victim, who is always drunk, then follow and take him. The why of it... my theory... is that it’s some sort of initiation/ritual into some weird murder cult.
not bad. keep digging
 
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