What was John wearing the morning of Dec. 26?

Dru said:
So, either PR is herself the molester AND killer, or JR is the molester AND killer. (Or, to be fair, the wandering pedophile is the molester/killer).


Dru,

There was a third family member in the house that night who you have left out. BR must be included.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
Dru,

There was a third family member in the house that night who you have left out. BR must be included.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

Yes it can be demonstrated all three Ramsey's colluded in the post-homicide cover up, so who knows, they could all be implicated in her death?

Was Burke with JonBenet when she was having her pineapple snack?


.
 
rashomon said:
BlueCrab,

erotic ashphyxiation can't be 'forced' on anyone, but requires two willing participants. And I can't see a child demanding EA for her own sexual pleasure (for that's what it is about: the sexual pleasure of the person who is asphyxiated).
Who was the first to bring up that EA stuff? Cyril Wecht I think, and it has been tossed about in public unquestioned.
In addition, there was no noose around JB's neck (which one would need for EA), but a (shoelace type) double knot which, once pulled tight, was fixed. So this was no 'breath control device' at all.
And like Delmar England pointed out in his analysis of the ligatures, multiple loops around a stick would actually prevent this so called 'garrote' from working properly.

The head blow in all probability came first (see Dr. Ronald Wright's analysis of the head wound), so there was no post-mortem battering of JB's body - it was pre-mortem.

Everything points to the garrote scene as being staged - this is also what the FBI's CASKU experts stated. And it was staged criminally unsophisticated: a piece of cord was clumsily wrapped around a stick to create a bizarre sexual predator scenario.



rashomon,

It's pretty well accepted among authorities that the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was for erotic asphyxiation (EA) or autoerotic asphyxiation (AEA) purposes, which are extremely dangerous breath control sexual practices.

Dr. Cyril Wecht was far from being the only person who originally believed this. In an interview with Lisa Levitt Ryckman of the Denver Rocky Mountain News in March of 2000 John Ramsey himself also believes it, "He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoeratic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex".

IOW, the garrote was probably the "murder" weapon and, like hundreds of similar deaths each year in the U.S., JonBenet accidentally died as another victim of breath contol sex games played by young people. All other injuries on JonBenet's body would then be staging to cover up the sexual aspects of the crime and make it appear to be the diabolical work of terrorists.

BlueCrab
 
UKGuy said:
BlueCrab,

Yes it can be demonstrated all three Ramsey's colluded in the post-homicide cover up, so who knows, they could all be implicated in her death?

Was Burke with JonBenet when she was having her pineapple snack?


.


UKGuy,

Yes, according to evidence from the police interviews, Burke and JonBenet, in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed, were sitting together in their usual seats at the breakfast room table. JonBenet snacked from the bowl of fresh pineapple sitting on the table in front of her, and Burke drank iced tea from a waterglass sitting in front of him. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple and on the big spoon sticking out of the bowl of pineapple.

JonBenet, according to the evidence in the autopsy, died one to two hours after she snacked on the pineapple.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

It's pretty well accepted among authorities that the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was for erotic asphyxiation (EA) or autoerotic asphyxiation (AEA) purposes, which are extremely dangerous breath control sexual practices.

Dr. Cyril Wecht was far from being the only person who originally believed this. In an interview with Lisa Levitt Ryckman of the Denver Rocky Mountain News in March of 2000 John Ramsey himself also believes it, "He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoeratic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex".

IOW, the garrote was probably the "murder" weapon and, like hundreds of similar deaths each year in the U.S., JonBenet accidentally died as another victim of breath contol sex games played by young people. All other injuries on JonBenet's body would then be staging to cover up the sexual aspects of the crime and make it appear to be the diabolical work of terrorists.

BlueCrab
Which authorities?
Have you read Delmar England's analysis of the so-called garrote which was no garrote? The multiple loops around the stick would actually have been counterproductive, for the more loops you have, the less effective pulling becomes. The FBI's highly qualified CASKU experts also pointed to the scene as being a staged scene.
If the garrote scene was staged, it follows that the instrument was not constructed to asphyxiate. The stager simply tied a knot around the unconscious child's neck and then wrapped the remaining cord around a broken paintbrush handle.
Just because someone clumsily wraps some loops around a stick does not make this into an EA device.

Cyril Wecht may be an renowned expert, but he has spouted such incredible nonsense e. g. about the Jeffrey MacDonald case, that I'd be very suspicious about anything he has to say about the JBR case. The problem with these famous experts is that in the course of time they have become so full of themselves that they think whatever they say is above reproach. I doubt that Wecht has ever taken a close look at the wrappings of the garrote or taken a good hard look at the knots. All it takes for someone like Wecht to scream "Erotic Asphyxiation" and it is swallowed as fact by the media.

And no one can convince me that a six-year-old girl engaged in EA for her own sexual pleasure. That's absurd.

In terms of John speaking about EA: "he is a sociopath experienced with erotic asphyxiation". Was that before or after Wecht brought it up?
 
BlueCrab said:
UKGuy,

Yes, according to evidence from the police interviews, Burke and JonBenet, in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed, were sitting together in their usual seats at the breakfast room table. JonBenet snacked from the bowl of fresh pineapple sitting on the table in front of her, and Burke drank iced tea from a waterglass sitting in front of him. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple and on the big spoon sticking out of the bowl of pineapple.

JonBenet, according to the evidence in the autopsy, died one to two hours after she snacked on the pineapple.

BlueCrab
Just because Burke's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple does not imply that he and JB were eating pineapple together after their parents had gone to bed.
For Patsy's prints were on the bowl too. And weren't there only Patsy's prints on the bowl? If you don't mind, I'll ask SuperDave or NP if they can confirm with the documented record what you say about the fingerprints being in those places.
 
BlueCrab said:
UKGuy,

Yes, according to evidence from the police interviews, Burke and JonBenet, in the middle of the night after the parents had gone to bed, were sitting together in their usual seats at the breakfast room table. JonBenet snacked from the bowl of fresh pineapple sitting on the table in front of her, and Burke drank iced tea from a waterglass sitting in front of him. Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple and on the big spoon sticking out of the bowl of pineapple.

JonBenet, according to the evidence in the autopsy, died one to two hours after she snacked on the pineapple.

BlueCrab
Bluecrab. I do not know what you have been reading, but I have never heard that there is evidence proving that JB and Berke got up together in the middle of the night. Also, and very important, Patsy Ramsey's fingerprints were on the bowl.
 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

It's pretty well accepted among authorities that the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was for erotic asphyxiation (EA) or autoerotic asphyxiation (AEA) purposes, which are extremely dangerous breath control sexual practices.

Dr. Cyril Wecht was far from being the only person who originally believed this. In an interview with Lisa Levitt Ryckman of the Denver Rocky Mountain News in March of 2000 John Ramsey himself also believes it, "He is a pedophile with a preference for little girls. He is a sociopath experienced with autoeratic asphyxiation, the use of garrotes to enhance sex".

IOW, the garrote was probably the "murder" weapon and, like hundreds of similar deaths each year in the U.S., JonBenet accidentally died as another victim of breath contol sex games played by young people. All other injuries on JonBenet's body would then be staging to cover up the sexual aspects of the crime and make it appear to be the diabolical work of terrorists.

BlueCrab
With all due respect BlueCrab, you might want to read up a little more on this case.
 
rashomon said:
Just because Burke's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple does not imply that he and JB were eating pineapple together after their parents had gone to bed.
For Patsy's prints were on the bowl too. And weren't there only Patsy's prints on the bowl? If you don't mind, I'll ask SuperDave or NP if they can confirm with the documented record what you say about the fingerprints being in those places.
Bluecrab: As far as prints go, I have heard only that Berke's prints were on the glass of tea found next to the bowl of pineapple. As far as this goes, I am suspect of its validity also since I believe it was documented on "48 Hours", but I could be wrong and if I am, my apologies. But I do believe the prints on the bowl belong only to Patsy. The prints on the glass belong to Berke.

I have never heard it proven that they came down together late at night.
 
rashomon said:
Which authorities?
Have you read Delmar England's analysis of the so-called garrote which was no garrote? The multiple loops around the stick would actually have been counterproductive, for the more loops you have, the less effective pulling becomes. The FBI's highly qualified CASKU experts also pointed to the scene as being a staged scene.
If the garrote scene was staged, it follows that the instrument was not constructed to ashpyxiate. The stager simply tied a knot around the unconscious child's neck and then wrapped the remaining cord around a broken paintbrush handle.
Just because someone clumsily wraps some loops around a stick does not make this into an EA device.

Cyril Wecht may be an renowned expert, but he has spouted such incredible nonsense e. g. about the Jeffrey MacDonald case, that I'd be very suspicious about anything he has to say about the JBR case. The problem with these famous experts is that in the course of time they have become so full of themselves that they think whatever they say is above reproach. I doubt that Wecht has ever taken a close look at the wrappings of the garrote or taken a good hard look at the knots. All it takes for someone like Wecht to scream "Erotic Asphyxiation" and it is swallowed as fact by the media.

And no one can convince me that a six-year-old girl engaged in EA for her own sexual pleasure. That's absurd.

In terms of John speaking about EA: "he is a sociopath experienced with erotic asphyxiation". Was that before or after Wecht brought it up?



rashomon,

I'm sorry, but Delmar England's analysis of the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck has never impressed me. England's analysis is primarily a bunch of opinions that are designed to debunk Smit's and Ramsey's claim that the "garrote" was made by a professional. His analysis, IMO, is irrelevant to the case. Even though I agree with him that the device was made by an amateur, so what? There aren't many, if any, professional garrote makers in the U.S.

England says the "garrote" was staging and the blow on the head killed JonBenet. But why design such an elaborate garrote just for the sake of staging? A real garrote is nothing but a length of wire or rope.

IMO the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was designed for and used for erotic asphyxiation. However, it was not "auto" erotic asphyxiation because it was obviously forced on her by the killer. I think JonBenet died accidentally because the perpetrators were too young to know what they were doing.

Incidentally, children do indeed participate in EA and AEA breath control games, and some of them accidentally die each year as a result. The youngest death recorded so far from AEA was a nine-year-old boy.

The FBI estimates that 500 to 1,000 people accidentally die every year due EA and AEA, most of them young people. The statistics are hard to accurately record because embarrassed family members usually try to coverup the real cause of death.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,

I'm sorry, but Delmar England's analysis of the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck has never impressed me. England's analysis is primarily a bunch of opinions that are designed to debunk Smit's and Ramsey's claim that the "garrote" was made by a professional. His analysis, IMO, is irrelevant to the case. Even though I agree with him that the device was made by an amateur, so what? There aren't many, if any, professional garrote makers in the U.S.

England says the "garrote" was staging and the blow on the head killed JonBenet. But why design such an elaborate garrote just for the sake of staging? A real garrote is nothing but a length of wire or rope.

IMO the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was designed for and used for erotic asphyxiation. However, it was not "auto" erotic asphyxiation because it was obviously forced on her by the killer. I think JonBenet died accidentally because the perpetrators were too young to know what they were doing.

Incidentally, children do indeed participate in EA and AEA breath control games, and some of them accidentally die each year as a result. The youngest death recorded so far from AEA was a nine-year-old boy.

The FBI estimates that 500 to 1,000 people accidentally die every year due EA and AEA, most of them young people. The statistics are hard to accurately record because embarrassed family members usually try to coverup the real cause of death.

BlueCrab
BlueCrab. I realize you are addressing Rash, but I am about to chime in. Your posting of statistics of 500 to 1000 people accidently die every year,.... (and you assume by young they mean children?) I would think they are talking 20 to 30 to 40 years old.


As far as Berke's prints on the bowl, could you tell me where you got that information. Thanks much. Solace
 
BlueCrab said:
rashomon,
England says the "garrote" was staging and the blow on the head killed JonBenet. But why design such an elaborate garrote just for the sake of staging? A real garrote is nothing but a length of wire or rope.
This contraption looks in no way 'elaborate', but clumsily done, and even you agreed that it looked amateurish.
IMO the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was designed for and used for erotic asphyxiation. However, it was not "auto" erotic asphyxiation because it was obviously forced on her by the killer. I think JonBenet died accidentally because the perpetrators were too young to know what they were doing.
The first time I heard about (auto) EA was when the Australian musician Michael Hutchence accidentally hung himself while practising auto-EA.
It makes me sick having to dig into this kind of stuff, but since the EA theory has been tossed about on the JB forums like a red herring which just won't go away, it is neccessary to get some basic info on it to see if it stands up to closer scrutiny.
And from what I have read so far here on the JBR forums about EA, I think you are misunderstanding what non-auto erotic asphyxiation means, BlueCrab. That there are two people involved does not mean that anything is forced on a 'victim' here. For it is actually the person who is being asphyxiated who also derives sexual pleasure from it, and again, no one can tell me that six-year-olds are into this.

Sure children may die from accidental strangulation (when playing cops and robbers or whatever), or just from playing with a rope.

And of course it happens that children get strangled by a sexual predator, but these sexual predators are not "practising EA" on their willing victims, they are torturing a terrified victim or silencing the victim as a witness.

One can't mix up practising EA with what the BTK strangler did to his victims.
 
BlueCrab, you are right that Burke was the other person in the house that night. I tend to leave him out of my calculations for two reasons: one, that LE pretty much cleared him as far as they were concerned, and two, that even if he had been abusing JBR, and had killed her, how would he have known to inflict the sexual wound to confuse the evidence of past molestation? I know nine-year-olds can be pretty savvy, but I think it takes an adult mind to think of such a thing.

And let's remember, the evidence shows that the killer DID inflict that wound, either before the murder, or during it (i.e., after the head blow, perhaps, but before death by strangulation had occurred).

That's why I think the molester HAS to be the killer. If someone else was molesting JBR, why would the killer want to hide evidence of that fact? Even if the killer KNEW FOR A FACT that JBR was being abused, it makes no sense that he/she would inflict that wound--it's his/her best 'reasonable doubt' playing card!
 
Dru said:
BlueCrab, you are right that Burke was the other person in the house that night. I tend to leave him out of my calculations for two reasons: one, that LE pretty much cleared him as far as they were concerned, and two, that even if he had been abusing JBR, and had killed her, how would he have known to inflict the sexual wound to confuse the evidence of past molestation? I know nine-year-olds can be pretty savvy, but I think it takes an adult mind to think of such a thing.

And let's remember, the evidence shows that the killer DID inflict that wound, either before the murder, or during it (i.e., after the head blow, perhaps, but before death by strangulation had occurred).

That's why I think the molester HAS to be the killer. If someone else was molesting JBR, why would the killer want to hide evidence of that fact? Even if the killer KNEW FOR A FACT that JBR was being abused, it makes no sense that he/she would inflict that wound--it's his/her best 'reasonable doubt' playing card!

Dru,

But her killer anticipated your theory so cleaned her up after sexually assaulting her and removed most of the blood, thereby hiding that Jonbenet had been sexually assaulted!


.
 
Solace said:
BlueCrab. I realize you are addressing Rash, but I am about to chime in. Your posting of statistics of 500 to 1000 people accidently die every year,.... (and you assume by young they mean children?) I would think they are talking 20 to 30 to 40 years old.


As far as Berke's prints on the bowl, could you tell me where you got that information. Thanks much. Solace


Solace,

Most of the EA and AEA accidental deaths are young people, and by that I mean teens and those people in their 20's, most of whom were males. However, the records show the age-span of victims range from nine-year-olds to those in their 70's.

Your request for a source revealing that Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple escapes me right now. However, the source for Burke's fingerprints being on the waterglass and on the big spoon sticking out of the bowl of pineapple was from Larry Schiller (author of PMPT) in his latest TV production about the Ramsey murder.

BlueCrab
 
Dru said:
BlueCrab, you are right that Burke was the other person in the house that night. I tend to leave him out of my calculations for two reasons: one, that LE pretty much cleared him as far as they were concerned, and two, that even if he had been abusing JBR, and had killed her, how would he have known to inflict the sexual wound to confuse the evidence of past molestation? I know nine-year-olds can be pretty savvy, but I think it takes an adult mind to think of such a thing.

And let's remember, the evidence shows that the killer DID inflict that wound, either before the murder, or during it (i.e., after the head blow, perhaps, but before death by strangulation had occurred).

That's why I think the molester HAS to be the killer. If someone else was molesting JBR, why would the killer want to hide evidence of that fact? Even if the killer KNEW FOR A FACT that JBR was being abused, it makes no sense that he/she would inflict that wound--it's his/her best 'reasonable doubt' playing card!



Dru,

In response to your reason #1: Burke has never been cleared by Boulder authorities. You will not find anything in writing from the BPD, or the DA, or the courts, nor any other place that states Burke was CLEARED. They will mealymouth the issue and use trick wording, but they will not say he is cleared, as they did with Melinda and John Andrew.

In response to your reason #2: There is no evidence that JonBenet was molested with the stick in an attempt to hide previous molestation. That's only a theory.

The autopsy evidence shows acute and chronic injuries to the vagina. The acute and chronic injuries were both at the same 7 o'clock position in the vagina. This strongly suggests that the same person inflicted the acute and the chronic injuries; IOW, someone she knew well inflicted both injuries.

BlueCrab
 
BlueCrab said:
Solace,

Most of the EA and AEA accidental deaths are young people, and by that I mean teens and those people in their 20's, most of whom were males. However, the records show the age-span of victims range from nine-year-olds to those in their 70's.

Your request for a source revealing that Burke's fingerprints were on the bowl of pineapple escapes me right now. However, the source for Burke's fingerprints being on the waterglass and on the big spoon sticking out of the bowl of pineapple was from Larry Schiller (author of PMPT) in his latest TV production about the Ramsey murder.

BlueCrab


Solace,

One source that reveals Burke's fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple is from the Ramseys. On page 273 of DOI they write:

"Then Haney produced a picture of a white bowl and asked me if I recognize it. He kept pushing, asking me what I would say if he told me that Burke's and my fingerprints were the only ones found on the bowl."

BlueCrab
 
A second source for the fingerprints is JonBenet The Police Files (exact transcripts of John & Patsy Ramsey's police investigations) edited by Don Gentile & David Wright.

It is also stated that the pineapple had to have been consumed at least 1-2 hours before death (could have been earlier - maybe before trip to Whites??).

Alexi
 
Alexi said:
A second source for the fingerprints is JonBenet The Police Files (exact transcripts of John & Patsy Ramsey's police investigations) edited by Don Gentile & David Wright.

It is also stated that the pineapple had to have been consumed at least 1-2 hours before death (could have been earlier - maybe before trip to Whites??).

Alexi
By rate of digestion I think it's pretty much a fact that the pineapple was eaten after arriving home.
It was 'the big bugaboo'.
 
narlacat said:
By rate of digestion I think it's pretty much a fact that the pineapple was eaten after arriving home.
It was 'the big bugaboo'.


narlacat,

Also not to ignore if the pineapple had been consumed prior to going to the Whites then the crab that the Ramsey's stated JonBenet ate at the White's party, should have been lying last in her digestive system, but it was not! That is the crab preceded the pineapple.

Which suggests quite convincingly that JonBenet was awake and walking about, long after arriving back from the White's. This contradicts the parents version of events.


.
 

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