What's in this cellar room photo?

Children trying to get a peak at gifts might bother what their status is.

Parents or children trying to hide all related crime evidence might bother what their status is.

If the opening of gifts that are not supposed to be opened yet is the motive for the incident that night, it might be why those gifts are hidden/left in the wine cellar along with JonBenet.

There is a crime scene photo that shows an unopened FAO present. The cellar room wasn't that large yet the picture with the Barbie does not show the FAO present in it.

I wonder what the real lay out was other than the blanket, Barbie nightgown and the tape?

Would this lead us to believe that the after Christmas Santa had a role in this? I have always wondered if they tested the material on the Santa Suit for fiber matches to the ligature/paint tray; especially Since Patsy walked out wearing the original red sweater.
 
There is a crime scene photo that shows an unopened FAO present. The cellar room wasn't that large yet the picture with the Barbie does not show the FAO present in it.

I wonder what the real lay out was other than the blanket, Barbie nightgown and the tape?

Would this lead us to believe that the after Christmas Santa had a role in this? I have always wondered if they tested the material on the Santa Suit for fiber matches to the ligature/paint tray; especially Since Patsy walked out wearing the original red sweater.

About those fibers...I had been under the mistaken impression that ONLY red fibers were found, But just yesterday I went over to ACR and re-read some of the police warrants and evidence lists and I saw that there were both red and black fibers found. Patsy's jacket was red and black fleece.
 
About those fibers...I had been under the mistaken impression that ONLY red fibers were found, But just yesterday I went over to ACR and re-read some of the police warrants and evidence lists and I saw that there were both red and black fibers found. Patsy's jacket was red and black fleece.

Thank you so much for clearing that up for me DeeDee249. That leaves the Santa Suit out of the picture and Patsy's jacket rolled up tight in the ligature. I wonder how you get away with such things? oh silly me :floorlaugh:
 
Well I respect everyone who has stayed on this case for JB and I am not even close to being up to speed on the facts in this case however, my personal belief is that if it was any person other then family then there would have been more direct evidence somewhere no matter if the cops botched it or not at the begining. DNA, fingerprints, after all that was a long note...someone in that family killed JB!

Lera213,
Well congratulations on your prescience. I just watched a National Geographic documentary on the BTK Killer, it was basically a timeline of dna analysis as applied to criminology. With outlines of PCR etc.

Yet one of the scientists in the documentary mirrored your thoughts exactly, he said paraphrasing: a dna profile has no value unless it is corroborated by some other crime-scene evidence!

Made me think about the dna profile extracted from the size-12's.




.
 
Lera213,
Well congratulations on your prescience. I just watched a National Geographic documentary on the BTK Killer, it was basically a timeline of dna analysis as applied to criminology. With outlines of PCR etc.

Yet one of the scientists in the documentary mirrored your thoughts exactly, he said paraphrasing: a dna profile has no value unless it is corroborated by some other crime-scene evidence!

Made me think about the dna profile extracted from the size-12's.




.

Honestly I don't think they really have any DNA worth much on the size-12's. They intentionally keep us focused on this one bit of evidence that will never amount to anything as you just pointed out.
I am sure there is a lot more evidence locked up in the LE vault that is worth bringing forward. But without a judge and DA that are willing to open the door and let the contents spill out is all together another matter. Just makes me more convinced that the truth lies in an accident turned into cover-up probably involving a minor/minor's.
 
Honestly I don't think they really have any DNA worth much on the size-12's. They intentionally keep us focused on this one bit of evidence that will never amount to anything as you just pointed out.
I am sure there is a lot more evidence locked up in the LE vault that is worth bringing forward. But without a judge and DA that are willing to open the door and let the contents spill out is all together another matter. Just makes me more convinced that the truth lies in an accident turned into cover-up probably involving a minor/minor's.

Ah. Would the Wizard of Oz have willingly pulled back his own curtain without Toto to expose him?

To open that door to answer questions long haunting this case would be to expose the corruption behind it for all to see.

They'll guard that door with everything they have, IMO, as they have for 15 years.

The cover up started before the child's body was cold, IMO. Possibly before she was even dead.

It began with a phone call...IMO.

Because I wasn't online during the James Rapp investigation and conviction, which included Rapp illegally obtaining the Ramsey's phone records and credit card info, I wasn't aware of how hot that case was until I found some old articles on it recently. The Rapps got much worse treatment than a child molester/killer ever feared.

Sure, Rapp gathered personal info on people and companies by lying, for sale to any bidder; I have no problem with him being nailed for it. But I find it hard to see anyone in Colorado LE get on their moral high horse about any crime as I'm convinced they darn well chose to allow a child molester and killer to walk away, even aided it, and continue to cover it up--IMO--and that was much more corrupt than information gathering--IMO.

http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/private-detectives.html

July 1, 1999

Law Confronts Seller of Private Data

By DOUGLAS FRANTZ

DENVER -- Using deception to ferret out personal information, including Ennis Cosby's credit card records after his killing and the home addresses of organized crime detectives in Los Angeles, a private detective built a $1-million-a-year business here selling information that ended up in the hands of everyone from the tabloid press to a reputed member of the Israeli Mafia.

Working out of his office in suburban Aurora, the detective, James J. Rapp, took in daily requests from people who wanted the confidential phone numbers and bank accounts for celebrities and victims of high-profile crimes, like the Columbine High School shootings. Rapp obtained records on the visits of television's "Ally McBeal" star, Calista Flockhart, to a doctor in Beverly Hills, Calif., at a time when the tabloids were filled with articles that she had an eating disorder, investigators and prosecutors said.

The authorities also said Rapp sold information about the Princess of Wales and her boyfriend in the hours after their deaths and information about JonBenet Ramsey, the 6-year-old beauty queen killed in nearby Boulder.


[snip]

Nearby, the ex-employee said, an elderly man faked a foreign accent and pretended to be confused to get information. Essentially, it is not illegal to lie about identity, except when impersonating a police officer or government official. The Colorado authorities hope to build a successful prosecution because their state is one of the few that make it a crime to impersonate someone else for gain.

Unless, of course, you're Team Ramsey member Susan Stine, in which case the BPD Police Chief you're impersonating in emails (Beckner) will chuckle with you and blow it off as a joke.

[snip]

Former Touch Tone employees said information on celebrities and victims of accidents had been extremely valuable because it could be sold over and over. For instance, in a letter to one client about the JonBenet Ramsey slaying, Rapp listed 14 categories of items for sale, ranging from phone and credit card records for the girl's parents to phone records for the family's private detective and the home address and phone number for the Boulder police detective investigating the death.

The indictment of the Rapps spelled out how they obtained some information about the Ramseys. Within days of the child's death on Dec. 26, 1996, callers from Touch Tone used pretexts to obtain American Express credit card records for her parents, John and Patricia Ramsey, according to the charges. Those records showed that purchases were made at a Boulder hardware store several days before the child's death.

On Jan. 14, 1997, a Touch Tone investigator called McGuckin Hardware pretending to be "John" and asking for information concerning two American Express charges. The investigator followed up with a letter identifying the charges and seeking the invoices. The letter was signed "John Ramsey."

Six days later, the hardware store provided the information on the purchases, which investigators said later found its way into an article in the tabloid Globe.

Lawrence Olmstead, who operates a research firm called Press Pass Media in Palmdale, Calif., acknowledged that Rapp sent him a letter offering the Ramsey information for sale but Olmstead said he did not buy any of it.

Olmstead acknowledged that he often bought phone numbers and addresses from Touch Tone on behalf of news media clients, whom he would identify only as some tabloids and mainstream media.

"A lot of guys make promises, but James really delivered," said Olmstead, who said everything he bought was used in legitimate news media inquiries.

[snip]

The Colorado authorities said constructing the indictment was complex and unusual. Hall, the lead prosecutor, said some people had to be convinced that obtaining confidential information by lying broke the law.

In the end, however, he said the charges hinged on the state law that prohibits impersonating someone for profit or to harm them and on the broad Federal wire fraud statute, which makes it a crime to use a telephone to commit an illegal act.


The racketeering indictment was based on what on what prosecutors said was a pattern of violating the state and Federal statutes.


[snip]

Steve Thomas told us about this case; otherwise, I'd never have heard of it. It essentially means the Ramsey's phone records, which DA Hunter refused to subpoena and which, one year later, had the full month of Dec. 1996 released "voluntarily" by the Ramsey lawyers to the BPD without one phone call on a cell phone which was active up to the month of Dec.--and who knows if it was active after that month, since the BPD wasn't allowed to see those records, either.

Seems important, doesn't it? Not only would it not be an extremely suspicious "development" in the forever unsolved case all these years later, but couldn't it have contained that "one clue" the Ramseys and their shills so soulfully begged for on national TV? Not to mention, does anyone with an IQ over 70 believe that rambling, too-much-information story Patsy told LE in '98 about that "lost" cell phone?

Every IDI who holds onto the laughable excuses about why the Ramsey's phone records weren't obtained with a subpoena immediately should ask themselves why that huge hole in the Ramsey's own "world-class" investigation remains to this day? Only a fool would call himself a serious detective who didn't follow that lead to "wherever it may lead." [Lou Smit]

This one piece of missing evidence, deliberately covered-up with the complicity of the DA, is unquestionably the smoking gun Boulder and Colorado LE will always wear as a badge of corruption and shame.

How many people were taken to trial and/or locked up for various charges and misdemeanors in the Ramsey case over much less than molesting, bludgeoning, and strangling a six year old child, and covering it up in a conspiracy that will haunt our justice system for decades?

This case will never see anything like justice: no trial, no conviction for the crimes against JonBenet; no investigation, no indictment, no trial or conviction for the crimes committed by all those who obstructed justice in this case, as well.

The only people ever to be punished by the legal system in this case were those who interfered in that cover-up.
 
Ah. Would the Wizard of Oz have willingly pulled back his own curtain without Toto to expose him?

To open that door to answer questions long haunting this case would be to expose the corruption behind it for all to see.

They'll guard that door with everything they have, IMO, as they have for 15 years.

The cover up started before the child's body was cold, IMO. Possibly before she was even dead.

It began with a phone call...IMO.

Because I wasn't online during the James Rapp investigation and conviction, which included Rapp illegally obtaining the Ramsey's phone records and credit card info, I wasn't aware of how hot that case was until I found some old articles on it recently. The Rapps got much worse treatment than a child molester/killer ever feared.

Sure, Rapp gathered personal info on people and companies by lying, for sale to any bidder; I have no problem with him being nailed for it. But I find it hard to see anyone in Colorado LE get on their moral high horse about any crime as I'm convinced they darn well chose to allow a child molester and killer to walk away, even aided it, and continue to cover it up--IMO--and that was much more corrupt than information gathering--IMO.



Unless, of course, you're Team Ramsey member Susan Stine, in which case the BPD Police Chief you're impersonating in emails (Beckner) will chuckle with you and blow it off as a joke.



Steve Thomas told us about this case; otherwise, I'd never have heard of it. It essentially means the Ramsey's phone records, which DA Hunter refused to subpoena and which, one year later, had the full month of Dec. 1996 released "voluntarily" by the Ramsey lawyers to the BPD without one phone call on a cell phone which was active up to the month of Dec.--and who knows if it was active after that month, since the BPD wasn't allowed to see those records, either.

Seems important, doesn't it? Not only would it not be an extremely suspicious "development" in the forever unsolved case all these years later, but couldn't it have contained that "one clue" the Ramseys and their shills so soulfully begged for on national TV? Not to mention, does anyone with an IQ over 70 believe that rambling, too-much-information story Patsy told LE in '98 about that "lost" cell phone?

Every IDI who holds onto the laughable excuses about why the Ramsey's phone records weren't obtained with a subpoena immediately should ask themselves why that huge hole in the Ramsey's own "world-class" investigation remains to this day? Only a fool would call himself a serious detective who didn't follow that lead to "wherever it may lead." [Lou Smit]

This one piece of missing evidence, deliberately covered-up with the complicity of the DA, is unquestionably the smoking gun Boulder and Colorado LE will always wear as a badge of corruption and shame.

How many people were taken to trial and/or locked up for various charges and misdemeanors in the Ramsey case over much less than molesting, bludgeoning, and strangling a six year old child, and covering it up in a conspiracy that will haunt our justice system for decades?

This case will never see anything like justice: no trial, no conviction for the crimes against JonBenet; no investigation, no indictment, no trial or conviction for the crimes committed by all those who obstructed justice in this case, as well.

The only people ever to be punished by the legal system in this case were those who interfered in that cover-up.

KoldKase I have often thought the exact same thing. That JR was on the phone with heads of state that directed their move's long before the 911 call was ever placed. Why else wouldn't the R's not have to produce phone records (legally speaking). And why was LE told to treat the R's as victims and not suspects when LE knew from the get go something wasn't adding up correctly?

This is the hole that makes me also believe that is was a possibilty that JAR could have been in the house that night and then flown out without detection. It isn't really my opinion of what took place but BR and JAR could have done this together. PR wouldn't have covered for JAR but BR she would have. JR wold have covered for both.
 
KoldKase I have often thought the exact same thing. That JR was on the phone with heads of state that directed their move's long before the 911 call was ever placed. Why else wouldn't the R's not have to produce phone records (legally speaking). And why was LE told to treat the R's as victims and not suspects when LE knew from the get go something wasn't adding up correctly?

This is the hole that makes me also believe that is was a possibilty that JAR could have been in the house that night and then flown out without detection. It isn't really my opinion of what took place but BR and JAR could have done this together. PR wouldn't have covered for JAR but BR she would have. JR wold have covered for both.

Another thing Thomas revealed to us: John Ramsey got a condolence call from none other than the husband of the Lt. Governor of Colorado within days of the murder. Yep, they were close enough to the Ramseys to make that call:

From Redd Herring:

[Haddon] or his firm is the attorney as well for Donald L. Stevens, husband of Lt. Governor of Colorado, Gail Schoettler. She is the Democratic candidate for governor. Stevens was a fraternity brother of John Ramsey at Michigan State, and they have been friends for 35 years.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

I know I've become too cynical to bear after 15 years of this case, but I've also observed a lot of other situations in life in which nepotism and connections meant favoritism on a level most of us will never imagine. I truly can't believe the Ramsey's connections and influence through John's increasing success as an employee of Lockheed Martin, which has many subsidiary companies in Colorado, as well as across the country and world, had nothing to do with how this case turned out.

I may be wrong...but this is how things work for the 1%, as I now see it.
 
The pic on the left shows where JonBenet should have been safely tucked into her bed on Christmas night and the other shows where JonBenet was left for dead in her own home in the dank, molded section of the basement called the wine cellar.

Along with anything affiliated with the basement; the chilling wine cellar is the scariest location in the Ramsey home. My disdain for JR and PR has only grown over the years.


attachment.php
AnatomyColdCase075.jpg


One or both indicted Ramseys heinously and callously placed their lovely young daughter into the scariest room in that nasty basement then closed and locked the door after she had been molested, banged on the head, and garroted.


There could have been a struggle in her bed from the rumpled looks of it. Why not leave JonBenet in her bedroom? Why must she be found in the hell hole? Just to stage a kidnapping. Doesn't this very location scream contempt and show just how easily JBR was discarded? The blankets, dolls and clean clothes appear to show care for JonBenet but do not be duped.


We're having a discussion at FFJ about this cellar photo I happened upon yesterday. It appears that there might be a doll in the photo, but it's hard to say. It could just be a lump of Christmas decorations or something else.

The photo is from one of the documentaries done about this case. This group of photos came from a screen capture by ACR or Why Nut--can't remember which as they both did some.

So we have a blurred, distant photo among others, which makes it worse when enlarged. But I've played around with it to give a better idea of what I'm looking at.

By the way, the photo in the upper right corner is of JonBenet still in the home, before her body was taken away, so it's not a doll.

Here's the FFJ thread: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9958&page=5

Here are the images:

attachment.php


attachment.php

Isn't it sadly ironic that there is a silver spoon for the pineapple chunks in the bowl on Patsy's dining table and also evidence of pineapple found in JBRs small intestine as well as mentioned in a relevant scene in The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie?

To attend Christmas Eve Mass 1996, JonBenet wore a purple velvet dress, iirc, JR recalled she looked so pretty. Patsy decorated with purple ribbons in 1996. A purple ornament was discovered shattered in the cellar. Is there a significant passage in TPoMJB relating to the color purple? TIA
 
:bump: Bumping up this thread because of photo reference to FAO Schwartz and possibility of Barbie doll in Wine Cellar. Some good photos on this thread. Then there's the last post which also questions the purple ornament and makes reference to a purple velvet dress worn by JB to Christmas Eve Mass. Didn't know about the dress!
 
That is that year's Christmas Barbie. It's been discussed on previous posts, some time ago.Also see the enlarged photos of the doll.
 
Looking at the photo of the doll im confused. It looks like a Barbie, and is that tissues near it? And also the blanket issue...(which has already been discussed, I know) is it a nightgown, or a pink blanket? Because it looks awful big to be a gown for JB size or even her dolls? And is this the same "gown" that has been mentioned as the Barbie gown? And some say they can see a Barbie doll under the pink "thing". Can someone maybe enlarge this to see it better. Thanks :)
 
Looking at the photo of the doll im confused. It looks like a Barbie, and is that tissues near it? And also the blanket issue...(which has already been discussed, I know) is it a nightgown, or a pink blanket? Because it looks awful big to be a gown for JB size or even her dolls? And is this the same "gown" that has been mentioned as the Barbie gown? And some say they can see a Barbie doll under the pink "thing". Can someone maybe enlarge this to see it better. Thanks :)
BBM

I don't see it either.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Looking at the photo of the doll im confused. It looks like a Barbie, and is that tissues near it? And also the blanket issue...(which has already been discussed, I know) is it a nightgown, or a pink blanket? Because it looks awful big to be a gown for JB size or even her dolls? And is this the same "gown" that has been mentioned as the Barbie gown? And some say they can see a Barbie doll under the pink "thing". Can someone maybe enlarge this to see it better. Thanks :)

elannia,
Yes that is definitely JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown lying on top of the white blanket. The pink nightgown has a barbie logo on the front, which initially confused some people as to what Patsy was referring to in her answers, since when shown to Patsy it was in a plastic see throught evidence bag.

There is also a barbie doll lying on the floor unwrapped, certainly not boxed. So how Kolar considers the pink nightgown probative but not the doll beats me.


.
 
elannia,
Yes that is definitely JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown lying on top of the white blanket. The pink nightgown has a barbie logo on the front, which initially confused some people as to what Patsy was referring to in her answers, since when shown to Patsy it was in a plastic see throught evidence bag.

There is also a barbie doll lying on the floor unwrapped, certainly not boxed. So how Kolar considers the pink nightgown probative but not the doll beats me.


.
Thanks... I just thought it looked awful big to be a gown. But I know her blood stained gown was with her. So about this Barbie... Is it the one with the red dress on(the holiday Barbie?)
 
I am jumping on this thread first time. New eyes. I looked at pic. It looks like a used paint roller tray. And paint cans in same photo in back upper left. Sorry if this has already been hashed over, but that is what I see.
 
I am jumping on this thread first time. New eyes. I looked at pic. It looks like a used paint roller tray. And paint cans in same photo in back upper left. Sorry if this has already been hashed over, but that is what I see.

There were said to be paint cans in the wine cellar. Many people think that these paint cans were the source of the "metal scraping concrete" sounds that Mr Stanton heard after his wife Melody woke him up after she heard the child's scream at midnight. If the paint cans were moved along the concrete floor to make room for JB's body, they'd make a scraping sound.
 
There were said to be paint cans in the wine cellar. Many people think that these paint cans were the source of the "metal scraping concrete" sounds that Mr Stanton heard after his wife Melody woke him up after she heard the child's scream at midnight. If the paint cans were moved along the concrete floor to make room for JB's body, they'd make a scraping sound.

How awful to thank what this poor kiddo endured that night(and previous nights with the SA). I believe the scream was from the SA and she was bashed on the head right after to shut her up. I remember in PMPT BS had said how much JB missed her daddy because he was away for work alot. So I am just wondering off the bat, who was actually assaulting her.. Patsy surely not, I believe she really adored her, but maybe she knew or found out about the SA and thats why she called Dr Beuf 3 times leading up to Christmas... The 911 call was a big mistake because they were called over and sent away, only then 3 days later a lil girl ends up dead in the same home. That call was no mistake. So was JB being assualted that night and thats why they were called... So who could have been hurting JB... and about the bed wetting stopping and starting up again... something was going on
 
There were said to be paint cans in the wine cellar. Many people think that these paint cans were the source of the "metal scraping concrete" sounds that Mr Stanton heard after his wife Melody woke him up after she heard the child's scream at midnight. If the paint cans were moved along the concrete floor to make room for JB's body, they'd make a scraping sound.

I find it hard to believe that those cans would have been sitting in the middle of
The room where JBs body ended up. I wonder about the aluminum baseball bat found just outside. Or maybe the sound was from the window grate?


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