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Where Do You Think Teresa Halbach was Killed?

Discussion in 'Netflix Series: Making A Murderer' started by BigCityAccountant, Feb 26, 2016.

  1. Karinna

    Karinna Well-Known Member

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    BBM, I am not saying you made that claim. I asked a question if you knew otherwise. I see now with your post that info. isn't available, so you answered my question.
    Tire rims AFAIK are not made of lead, being that lead is a soft metal.
    Commonly seen are alloy (magnesium and aluminum), mag (magnesium), aluminum, and chrome. Teflon coatings are sometimes also applied for an extra layer of protection.
     
  2. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    I didn't say they were made of lead, but could consist of lead. Iirc I read that somewhere, but maybe I'm confused with weights. Not really my kinda topic tbh...
     
  3. Karinna

    Karinna Well-Known Member

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    I thought there were only tires burned in the pit, and don't think it ever specified tires & rims to my knowledge?
    There were parts of steel belt tires found in the pit.
    It wouldn't make sense to throw in the tires still attached to the metal rims because being a salvage yard i would think the rims would of been removed because you would be able to sell them and make money from them if not damaged.
     
  4. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    I'm going off my memory here. I remember rims being mentioned at some point in relation to the burn pit. I will have to look up exactly how it was written down.

    EDIT: i think i was somewhat misremembering this line

     
  5. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

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    Yes, apparently the claim that Teresa was burned in the fire pit relies on the unavailability (or non-existence) of evidence, which is why I can't accept such a claim.
     
  6. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    Until evidence for the positive claim emerges that a body with bullets in it was burned there emerges, there is no rational reason to accept that claim.

    Since we have several lines of evidence which indicate there was no body burned there, it's my conclusion that the claim is 'not proven' and highly unlikely in the absence of compelling evidence.

    Since the prosecution was unable or unwilling to present the necessary evidence for this claim, it would appear there is no such evidence.

    All MOO
     
  7. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    Never been my claim. You brought the suggestion into this that if Teresa was burned there there should be a molten bullet somewhere, or molten lead (assuming the bullet remained intact and didn't break) This topic simply cannot be further discussed as we don't have the required files available. It seems to me that you therefore stick with your conclusion she wasn't burned there because we don't have these files available. It's as if you're using the unavailability of these documents to strengthen your claim, even going as far as using the word "non-existence".

    The fairest option, at least to me, would be to pass judgment on this matter of molten lead and to focus and what we do and can know.
     
  8. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if there is more information available through DCI or the crime lab. We don't know if those reports exist at all, they might, and they might provide some more information, be don't know that. We can read testimony from Ertl, Pevytoe, Wiegert, Eisenberg, Fassbender and I'm not sure who else (but CASO lists who else ;-) )about how they went through the evidence. And there is information in CASO about how the process was done, it was not done by DCI or the crime lab.

    On scene, they used a tiered sifter, larger stuff stayed on the top.... and then the sifter got smaller as it went down, what remained, they tarped up or bagged up and then later went through. We know this from testimony.

    From CASO:

    Throughout the morning, afternoon and evening hours, we did process the contents of the burn
    pile by sifting through it manually. We were also joined by Inv. MARK WIEGERT and Special
    Agent TOM FASSBENDER who also assisted us. It should be noted that the process involved
    lying down a tarp, putting the burnt items on a tarp and transferring the burn material to work
    station


    it's interesting to see what they did pull out of the debris in this process:

    o Property Tag #6197, a suspected bone fragment
    o Property Tag#6198, hair fibers
    o Property Tag #6799, fibers
    o Property Tag #6200, teeth
    o Property Tag #8177, paper
    o Property Tag #8118, suspected bone fragments
    o Property Tag #8119, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag#8120, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag #8121, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag #8122, a clothing rivet
    o Propefty Tag #8723, burnt paper
    o Property Tag #8124, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag #8125, metal pieces
    o Property Tag #8135, an AA battery
    o Property Tag #8136, a metal piece
    o Property Tag #8137 , a suspected hair fiber
    o Property Tag #8138, a zipper pull
    o Property Tag#8141, a spent .22 caliber shell
    o Property Tag #8143, a clothes snap
    o Property Tag#8147, an unknown material with perforations
    o Property Tag #8148, a suspected bone fragment
    o Property Tag#8149, a clothes snap
    o Property Tag #8150, teeth
    o PropertyTag#8151, a clothing fiber
    o Property Tag #8161 an AA battery
    o Property Tag#8162, a clothing fiber
    o Property Tag #8163, paper pieces
    o Property Tag #8139, an earring
    o Property Tag#8144, two AAA batteries
    o Property Tag #8145, four AA batteries
    o Property Tag #8146, paper
    o Property Tag #8140, bone fragments
    o Property Tag #8153, brass from a shotgun shell
    o Property Tag #8154, a metal object, possibly resembling a cell phone antenna
    o Property Tag #8157, two AA batteries
    o Property Tag #8756, metal and wire
    o Propefty Tag #8158, three AAA batteries
    o Property Tag #8155, a spent .22 caliber shell
    o Property Tag #8160, metal clothing pieces such as rivets and snaps
    o Property Tag #8159, a glass piece


    I found this at http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=356 I didn't look to see what they found if/when they went through more.

    BBM in the list are things that stood out to me, for different reasons. First because they were found, and second because they survived a fire that supposedly burned a body. Again, if the burn pit had been processed properly, making a grid, taking layers, documenting what was found on top, then in the first, second, etc layers, maybe we would know where the paper was found and would have an idea of how it could have survived that massive 'supposed' fire. Or pieces of clothing.
     
  9. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

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    I guess it could be mentioned that according to my buddy, Google:

    Ignition temperature is the temperature at which something catches fire and burns on its own. The ignition temperature of paper is 451 degrees Fahrenheit, or 233 degrees Celsius.
     
  10. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    You could just as well replace "prosecution" with "defense". It would be in their interest to raise the, what you insist is, the absence of lead in the burn pit. Yet they didn't.

    I only remember the smell argument? And the buckets.
     
  11. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    The DCI and Crime Lab have records, of course. Some bits of DCI records were exhibits at trial and are available. The owner of stevenaverycase.org requested these records but was denied by DCI and WiCL.

    That is a record from December 2005, not from 8 November, and that list you compiled doesn't just list items from the burn pile. The majority of these items you list were collected elsewhere. This feels misleading to me.

    What was found in the pit, to me, just confirms what Sturdivant said at trial: they were looking for Teresa and they collected items that could identify her.

    Pieces of paper and hair could've easily gotten there after the 31st, maybe by a gust of wind.
     
  12. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you look at that link again. They were going through the debris that was collected from the burn pit area. That is confirmed by the bone and teeth fragments and the rivets that they also found along with other things listed, unless you are suggesting that those items were also found elsewhere?

    Pieces of paper and hair absolutely could have blown in... I guess we will never know because we have no idea where that paper/hair was found, was it laying on the top? was it mixed in with the ashes? was it under that crust that the bones laid on?

    Maybe there was paper in the bucket or whatever someone used to dump those bones! JMO

    There may be a few records from DCI and/or the Lab, but I wouldn't expect to learn much more than we already know. Those that did the work testified, they testified that they didn't take photo's, they testified that they sifted it, went through the remaining debris later.
     
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  13. Karinna

    Karinna Well-Known Member

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    So did Brendan make claim to doing that? Or was it just what Earl said unverified?
     
  14. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

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    This interesting list of things supposedly found in the fire pit would seem to support my line of thinking that they were looking for more than bones and things that may have belonged to Teresa. I'd suspect the sifting would reveal more things than they were looking for. And once it was believed there was a shooting even an amateur such as myself would think to wonder what became of any bullets that might have been involved.
     
  15. proudfootz

    proudfootz Well-Known Member

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    BBM

    If neither you nor I claim Teresa was burned in the fire pit, then we are in agreement.
     
  16. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    That list you gave was originally not one list, but three separate lists. This is a part of that list you put together

    o Property Tag #8139, an earring
    o Property Tag#8144, two AAA batteries
    o Property Tag #8145, four AA batteries
    o Property Tag #8146, paper
    o Property Tag #8140, bone fragments
    o Property Tag #8153, brass from a shotgun shell
    o Property Tag #8154, a metal object, possibly resembling a cell phone antenna
    o Property Tag #8157, two AA batteries
    o Property Tag #8756, metal and wire
    o Propefty Tag #8158, three AAA batteries
    o Property Tag #8155, a spent .22 caliber shell
    o Property Tag #8160, metal clothing pieces such as rivets and snaps
    o Property Tag #8159, a glass piece

    But above that list was a paragraph that contained this passage:

    This paragraph was not present in your post and the list under it was put together with the list of items found in the "the burn pile".

    If you search CASO you will find the following about Property Tag #7922

    So, the earring, batteries, paper, bone, and whatever, were NOT found in the burn pit, but in a barrel!

    The other 1/3 of your list were from Property Tag #7947, apparently simply called "burnt material" somewhere "south" of the pit. Wherever that is. I thought they may have meant the mound of sand from the burn pit, but apparently that is north of the pit and what was found in there was placed under Tag #7937. In any case, it is not from the burn pit itself.

    If you look solely at the items confiscated from the pit (not seen or found, but confiscated), then I see a list that supports my claim (or rather what The DCI has been saying all along) that they were simply looking for Teresa and looking for stuff that could identify her.

    Just raising questions or are you implying something? Brendan and Steven said there was a bonfire on the 31st, so the most logical suggestion would be that hairs and whatever got on there after the 31st. Could even be a hair from a CASO, DCI or WiCL person investigating the pit or just from Avery himself, or Brendan who supposedly was near it on Wednesday.

    Why care about a hair, though?

    Did the reports say there was a paper in the buckets though?

    I've learned new things from the small bits that we do have available. From what I've heard The DCI records are also or about as large or larger than the CASO records, so why not?
     
  17. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    I didn't word that very well and looking back at it I don't recall how I meant it. I believe Avery burned Teresa in the burn pit. If not, he would've mentioned the whole thing straight away and use Brendan as his alibi, something he only started doing after enough witnesses placed him at the fire. Else, he, I think, never would've confessed he had one. Same with Brendan.

    Plenty of other things would go unexplained as well if Steven didn't burn her at the burn pit. And the fact he had a bonfire would then be one of the long list of coincidences with the possibility of being connected to TH that happened at the Salvage Yard.

    The possible absence of lead in his pit, isn't conclusive proof of framing. We only have 40%-60% of TH and only small pieces of her clothes. We can't just assume everything else we want to be there, should be there.
     
  18. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    Never checked if he did or if he was asked to respond to it.
     
  19. missy1974

    missy1974 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct, 7922 was from the barrel!

    7923 and 7947 were from the burn pit though.

    So to be clearER, this is what they took from those property tag #'s:


    From Property Tag #7923, the following items were recovered:

    o Property Tag #6197, a suspected bone fragment
    o Property Tag#6198, hair fibers
    o Property Tag #6199, fibers
    o Property Tag #6200, teeth
    o Property Tag #8177, paper
    o Property Tag #8118, suspected bone fragments
    o Property Tag #8119, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag#8120, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag #8121, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag #8122, a clothing rivet
    o Propefty Tag #8723, burnt paper
    o Property Tag #8124, a clothing rivet
    o Property Tag #8125, metal pieces

    On 12120105, the DCI personnel processed Property Tag#7947, which was burnt material found
    south of the fire pit recovered on 11/11/05. Property Tag #7947 generated the following items:

    o Property Tag #8135, an AA battery
    o Property Tag #8136, a metal piece
    o Property Tag #8137 , a suspected hair fiber
    o Property Tag #8138, a zipper pull
    o Property Tag#8141, a spent .22 caliber shell
    o Property Tag #8143, a clothes snap
    o Property Tag#8147, an unknown material with perforations
    o Property Tag #8148, a suspected bone fragment
    o Property Tag#8149, a clothes snap
    o Property Tag #8150, teeth
    o PropertyTag#8151, a clothing fiber
    o Property Tag #8161 an AA battery
    o Property Tag#8162, a clothing fiber
    o Property Tag #8163, paper pieces



    #7923 is not as clear as to where it came from, BUT, the fact that it contained teeth, rivets, bones, I think it is safe to assume it came from the pit or it's vicinity.

    If you are suggesting that 7947 was not found close to or in the burn pit, that is interesting, because they found the zipper pull in there, bone fragments, and teeth.

    As for raising questions or implying something... of course I am... I am implying they did a crappy job of investigating and documenting everything. I am also implying that it's absolutely possible, IMO, that those bones could have been dumped there.

    The significance of hair or burned/unburned paper seems to be lost here. I will assume that we can all agree that a fire that is large and hot enough to burn a human body will also be hot enough to completely burn paper, clothing, and hair. The positioning of that clothing, hair, paper would be significant. If it was laying on top, sure, it could have "blown" in. But if it was under that ash crust that Sturdivant described seeing on the 8th, don't you think that would be significant?

    The buckets ~ other than being described in a search warrant as possibly being used to distribute the remains, there is NO information on any buckets that were found and described that way in evidence logs or in CASO, so either the search warrant was wrong, or there is no record of them.

    DCI reports ~ if they are anything like the CASO reports ... uggh They will raise more questions than answers IMO Specific to the burn pit though, I am not sure we will find out more information than we have available, there is testimony from LE that were involved with the sifting, searching, etc. They did not document it. Period. They didn't call in an anthropologist. Ertl didn't even take a photo because as he describes it "it was obviously altered when he got there" (would love to know what he meant by that, because Sturdivant testified that they didn't touch anything until the Crime lab got there with their equipment) No one took good photo's of the burn pit.
     
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  20. ACJL

    ACJL Member

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    They were found south from the pit and were given a different tag from the items found in the pit. I have no idea where exactly this location would be but I don't doubt it is on Avery's property and somewhere near the pit.

    I don't know, because there was a very long lasting fire anyway. My brother's fire place always contains small half burned pieces of paper and other materials that you'd expect to be totally burned. All we know is that a hair was found. And people lose about 50 ~ 100 hairs per day, and plenty of people have been near the pit, including Steven, Brendan, news reports, cops, etc, etc. The chance these hairs are somehow suspicious is extremely small.

    Same with the paper. It could've come from anywhere. I doubt it's from the "real killer" who tried to hide some incriminating paper in Steven's burn pit. If it was something noteworthy I believe the cops would've investigated it.

    Actually, they were available for a short amount of time after MaM aired, or so I heard. Some people still have them. Apparently they are actually much larger than CASO's, going over 15,000 pages. I find it plausible to assume it would contain more pages on the search than CASO.
     

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