Discussion in 'Netflix Series: Making A Murderer' started by JanIreland, Jan 10, 2016.
That would be a good question for his new attorney from the innocence project who vows to get him freed. I believe she did state something to the effect that her caseload wouldn't allow her to act any earlier.
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But polygraphs can be fooled and the skill level of the person administering the test matters greatly. Plus they are not evidence of anything.
I agree with you 100% . But I think a list of who is willng and not willing to give one would go a long way in clearing up a few things. I don't trust anyone on the property except Brendan at this moment.
I have a hard time believing the conspiracy theory, but I am not as versed in the evidence yet as some of you as I've just watched the Netflix documentary and Nancy Grace show on guilt.
A few things from the Grace show stuck out to me ...
1) Steven told investigators that Teresa had driven off after she gave him the Auto Trader magazine. If true, you would have to believe that someone chased Teresa down, forced her off the road, killed her, and then planted all of the evidence and vehicle on the Avery property. Far fetched if you ask me ...
2) When told by investigators that Teresa's blood was in his trailer, Steven replied "it couldn't be". If he is indeed guilty, that would mean that
he knows he and Brendan took her out to the garage and killed her there. I will concede that some might believe that Steve meant that no blood would be found in the trailer as Teresa was never in the trailer.
3) Brendan's confession to investigators in the Grace show seemed too detailed to be coerced and forced. Now it could be that investigators had spoon fed Brendan all of the little details prior to that meeting, but I just don't see it.
4) Steven's phone calls to the Auto Trader requesting Teresa specifically to come see the van ( not in either show, but true ?)
I'll have more as I get more versed on the evidence, but I'm in the Steven did it camp right now.
1. I think the other main suspects are other people who were on the Avery property at the time. This is a huge salvage yard so Steven could have seen her drive away from his location, but then she was stopped by someone else while still on the property.
2. I'm extremely confused on how this is a point leading to Avery's guilt. The police lied to him in an interrogation about there being blood in his trailer, and when he says "it couldn't be" that means he knew she was killed in the garage. If you believe the Dassey confession then there should be Teresa's DNA all over the trailer and the garage, except there wasn't aside from a bullet fragment with a tiny trace of her DNA.
3. Brendan had multiple interrogations by the detectives including some that weren't taped, and there was information about the case all over the news at the time. The things he confessed to were all over the place (earning the disapproval from the detectives) until he started hitting on the right details which earned approval from the detectives.
4. He didn't ask for Teresa specifically, but asked Auto Trader to send out 'The girl you sent last time'. I don't know but I think it's pretty normal to ask for the same person if they've done work for you before and you thought they did a good job. I certainly hope my hairdresser never goes missing after an appointment with her, since I ask for the same person to cut my hair!
1. Maybe and I could be mistaken, but wasn't the van to be photographed by the main road ?
2. As I mentioned above, I can look at Steven's statement either way.
3. Just my opinion on the Brendan interrogation on the Grace program - doesn't seem coerced or forced at all. And I don't know when that interrogation was done ... certainly Brendan would have talked to his mother by then or a lawyer as I don't believe that was the first time he
4. What about the *67 calls made to Auto Trader ? And why would Steven go to the trailer door wearing just a towel if he knew Teresa was coming to take pictures of a vehicle ?
Trying to keep an open mind ...
BBM, this one is just hearsay, and there is no real indication it made Teresa feel unsafe. She joked about it with her coworker but my understanding is that they laughed about it.
As for the interrogation of Brendan, there is nothing anyone could ever say that would make me think those interviews were ok.
1. So looking at this map it seems that the van was at the very end of the long main road of the property, but in order to leave TH would have had to drive down it past several other Avery homes to get to Avery road, and then had to drive down that to get to the main highway.
2. Fair enough, I'm just still confused on how that statement could be interpreted that way. It seems to me like it's a straight forward denial, and that even if he had killed her in the garage there would have had to have been a lot of clean up to make sure that there wasn't even a trace of blood tracked into the trailer.
3. Ah well that makes sense from a Nancy Grace program. I haven't seen it, but I know she is usually chomping at the bit to be gather the torches and pitchforks against someone. The technique that the detectives used against him is particularly well known for eliciting false confessions. The first taped interview is actually the third interrogation Brendan has had where the detectives had been feeding him details of the crime, as well as what was in the media at the time. Lots and lots of people, including those who are much more sophisticated than Brendan and his mother, waive their right to having an attorney present when being interrogated by the police. The police are trained to treat Miranda rights like they're just a formality with suspects and that they're 'just having a chat' to 'get their side of the story and ask a few questions'. Many people believe that their innocence will protect them within an interrogation.
4. I agree the *67 calls and answering the door in a towel are weird but not so out of the ordinary that I think it's a good indication of his guilt. In 2010 I worked for the census and I had several people answer the door in just a towel and not act disturbed in the least while I was asking them questions, despite me offering to come back later. Some people are just slobs. Also, from what I understand this was just a one time event and TH's reaction was more like "Eww, gross dude." than feeling creeped out.
Also just to note I am not saying that SA is innocent. I just don't think that there is enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it based on the evidence that has been presented. SA very well could have killed her, but the investigation was so bungled that we will never know for sure.
Thanks for your reply.
I'll add a few thoughts and let it go until I have some time to review all of the evidence.
1. Why would anyone else in the Avery family have stopped Teresa if only Steven knew she was coming ?
2. What you believe is a straight forward denial could have been a slip on Steven's part, thinking to himself that he killed Teresa in the garage.
As far as cleaning up the garage, I believe it could have been done easily with the right chemicals. I have doubts about the 5 gunshots in the garage as to why no one else heard them. Or Teresa's screams for that matter ...
3. I don't doubt that Nancy Grace believes both Avery/Dassey to be guilty, but I was trying to be objective based on the Brendan/police interview I saw. Brendan doesn't sound nearly as dumb and slow as he appears in the first interview. I will go back and review all interview tapes though.
4. I believe the difference between Steven's towel act and your census work is that Steven knew when Teresa was coming. And I do believe the only reason Teresa went back to the Avery's was that she was led to believe she wouldn't have to deal with Steven.
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Just to play devil's advocate they (the MCSD) had the means and the motive. He was at one point suing the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department for $36 million dollars and many of them were at the point of having their names dragged through the mud after their railroading of him was discovered. It is pretty convenient how after multiple searches evidence was found by the same individuals that railroaded him back in the 80s in a very dubious manner.
1. Many people knew she was coming. Chuck, Earl, and Fabian all knew. It's possible that Bobby or Scott could have known as well. Steven told others she was coming.
2. I don't get what you mean by how saying "it couldn't be", means she was killed in the garage any more than her possibly being killed in the rav4, the woods, or anywhere. Unclear on how you come to that assumption. To me, that means he was saying there couldn't be blood in the trailer. He probably said the same thing to every other place they said they found something. But to isolate that statement as if it's the only thing that got said, to make a point, is a bit of a stretch.
3. Do you believe he was acting when he thought that he might be able to go home after confessing to rape/murder ? Was he that good of an actor to sell that maybe he was actually going to be able to catch wrestlemania ?
4. We know that steven contacted her via cellphone, and she still came. Also, she's well aware of the location, regardless of name given. -- I personally believe that the whole auto trader/calls etc is suspicious, but just want to clarify that she KNEW who she'd be meeting before she arrived.
The towel incident was not the day Teresa went missing. It was another incident, we don't know the date or the circumstances.
1. I believe that several of the other potential suspects were familiar with Teresa coming to the salvage yard to photograph cars and one of them had a known history of harassing women who came to the salvage yard. Even if he didn't know she was coming, she may have been a victim of opportunity if he saw her on the property. I also think that he admitted to the police that he was driving around the property on a golf cart hunting rabbits at the time Teresa was there, but that may have been another Avery.
2. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point.
3. It's been well established that Brendan is close to the range of intellectual disability and he was up against two trained detectives who use sophisticated techniques to elicit confessions from their suspects. Even if they weren't screaming at him or roughing him up they are still two adult police officers repeatedly questioning a kid who from my reading of him is immature for his age, passive and suggestible. It's an enormous power difference, and it's clear from the fact that he thought he could go back to class after confessing to a rape and murder that he didn't really understand what he was saying.
4. Fair enough. I just brought up that example to show that there are some people who seem to think that chatting with a total stranger in a towel is no big deal, much less an acquaintance. I think it's kind of a leap to use this one event as proof that he was obsessed with her and planning to kill her. Ultimately it's hearsay, and we have no idea of the context in which it happened. I haven't heard about Teresa believing that she wasn't going to have to deal with Steven anymore.
1. Steven was not the only one in the Avery family who knew Teresa was coming. According to Allen, other family members were aware as Steven had said he was going to go meet the photographer. CA asked him about it that day or the next- something like "hey did that girl show up to take pics" it's mentioned in the appeal docs I believe.
3. When looking at Brendan's interviews, it's important to keep in mind this is a child who had an IQ in the 69-73 range. He may sound "less dumb" in some interviews, but this is someone who has very apparent intellectual disabilities. This is someone who couldn't spell "detective" or "Teresa" , didn't know what "inconsistent" meant, or the difference between cursive and print, amongst other things. He was reading at around a 4th grade level. Children and the intellectually disabled are two of the groups most vulnerable to false confessions. They have a high desire to please and give detectives the answers they think they want, so LE needs to be careful they aren't feeding them information. Brendan was led into nearly every statement he gave, unless the statement didn't fit LE narrative, in which case they'd lead him away from the statement. He had no real understanding of the consequences of his statements, which was apparent when he asked if he'd have to stay in jail for just the night, after confessing to raping and murdering Teresa. He has no idea he won't be going home anytime soon, he thought LE would "go to bat for him" since they'd promised him that over and over. He was repeatedly told to "tell the truth" and "Teresa wants the truth" and "we already know the truth" until he gave police the answer they wanted. He's obviously guessing, he says so himself when he talks to his mom. Brendan's interviews, when looked at as a whole, are beyond concerning. I highly recommend reading the transcripts in order, as it shows how little info Brendan actually gave police. Also, he did not consult with an attorney prior to the 3/1 confession, he waived his Miranda rights when giving the statement (although I doubt he understood them, tbh)
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1. Did the others admit under oath that they knew Teresa was coming ? Or did Steven say he told the others you mentioned ?
2. Maybe a bit of a stretch ... but I'm assuming he's guilty and under interrogation trying to cover his tracks. How do we really know if wasn't thinking of the actual sequence of events of the crime ? I'll leave it at that for now.
3. Are you asking about Brendan's behavior during the 1st confession ? I really think he was clueless at that point and really thought he could go home. But I was specifically referring to the interrogation shown on the Grace special. I just find it hard to believe that he would continue admitting to a crime in multiple interrogations, after being able to speak with his family and a lawyer.
4. I also missed the evidence of Steven's cell phone call to Teresa on the day of the murder, but how would have the *67 Auto Trader calls have been released without a subpoena of phone records ?
1- They all knew, they stated they knew. SA's father stated clearly they all knew she was coming. Barb was the one requesting the appointment and had SA make the call.
3- Have you seen his lawyer's behavior toward his client? He gave no care what happened to his client, at all. He gave information to the investigators, he was HELPING the prosecution.
Brendan did not talk to a lawyer until after the 3/1 confession (the one that essentially sealed the charges against him).
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1. Steven did receive that magazine and the blank bill of sale for later use, this is proven in evidence. This does not prove she was in the house though. This also says to me based on the testimony of the other two appointments. JZ and SS both state that upon leaving they too received the Magazine and the Blank Bill of sale and drove off. So to me this says that the same happened with Avery's Residence. I believe had she been targeted like they claim he wouldn't have had her even go through the process of her appointment. Had she been targeted wouldn't he take advantage of the situation right away? And there is testimony from BoD that stated he watched her the whole time and left before she did. Could it be possible someone was following her after the fact. Yes I believe that would be possible. There is also social media going around about one of the people connected personally to Teresa, has been accused of FOLLOWING his recent ex girlfiend home after they broke up.
2. "IT COULDN'T BE" he said this about all of it. To me this means It could not be in his trailer, his blood could not be in her truck either. Because simply he Did not do it. He never seemed to lie about the prior things he has been involved in where it came to law enforcement. Including him never breaking and saying he was guilty of the wrongful conviction in the 80s. Thus I have no reason to believe that he is lying about that. It couldnt be... because he didn't do it.
3. There were many conversations with Brendan Dassey. The first investigator that
interviews Brendan talks about the Bus Driver and the kids on the bus seeing Teresa that day. Then all of a sudden those peoples statements must be false because the coercion that is seen in the recordings and transcripts of these recordings are Inconsistent with the time line of the bus driver. So now she wasn't seen taking pictures at 3:45 as the cop asked Brendan on Nov 6 2005. Seems the state can't even get the timeline correctly in place. The story is inconsistent cause he is being manipulated into the story that fits the cops theories. The only consistent statements he makes is he never seen her. he went home played playstation. saw his mom, answered a call for his brother who was not home. Mom and Tadych leave to visit his mom around 5:30. And he goes to a bonfire that his cancelled coming too with his uncle Steve. They work on a car, they clean up the yard and throw garbage from around the yard in using the golf cart. Those are consistent. his lies the Lead and Fed theory of the state are the only inconsistent statement. go back and listen to them all in their entirety.
4. Of course there was a call supposedly from Steven's phone to Auto Trader that day to set up an appointment to picture his sisters Van. It was the Sisters voicemail Teresa left that message on. How did Steven know she called if she didn't call him. Someone either the Sister or someone that lived with her gave Steve that number. As for him requesting the same girl. Could it just mean that he had done business with her before, thought she was a good photographer and would like the same professional to come back. Why does it have to be sinister that he requested someone who indeed had been there before. She at some point knew that the sisters place was on the Avery Lot, and that she should see Steven about payment. How did this come about? Also the person who is saying what was said after the fact by Steven or Teresa, wouldn't that be considered Hearsay?