Which came first, Strangulation or Head Trauma???

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by PolyGraph, Sep 1, 2008.

  1. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    Does anyone have any idea of which of these came first? In The autopsy it says that there is def petechia present which leads me to believe the strangulation, but then that would have been present even if there was head trauma which she did not die from, so Im confused as to what had to happen first? The blood under the fracture (sp?)seemed to indicate that she was alive while bleeding? but then there was not a lot of blood so Im still confused as to what happened first. Please someone help! :confused:
     
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  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    PolyGraph,
    Hello there. Both may have occured at the same time, e.g. manual strangulation followed by release which allows JonBenet to fall and hit some domestic object?

    Alternately the head blow may have occured first followed by a deliberate asphyxiation intending to finish JonBenet off, or its simple staging?

    What the autopsy is saying is that both events head blow and strangulation directly contributed towards JonBenet's death. That is they both reduced the flow of oxygen around the body thereby asphyxiating JonBenet.

    So whichever theory you think applies might help you decide which event came first?


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  4. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    Some experts feel that the head blow came first, but that she lived (though she was unconscious and possibly comatose) for up to an hour after. She may have appeared dead at that point, with breathing too shallow to notice, pale and cool to the touch, which happens when you go into shock as well. You are correct that petechiae occur only while alive. She was alive when strangled. Yet, there was no purpose to bashing the skull of a dead person, and even though it was a relatively small amount, the bleeding under the scalp and the mild swelling of the brain indicate she was alive when she was bashed on the head as well.
    Some feel that she was garroted first, screamed, and then bashed on the head to shut her up. Either way, the 2 events occurred fairly close together.
     
  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Not unless the bashing is intended as a fake cause of death? It appears to me that JonBenet was deliberately killed e.g. no medical assistance, then either whacked on the head or garroted, and with the interval between each injury event being small, the major concern seems to have been in finishing JonBenet off?

    So does this suggest that the head blow came second, otherwise the internal bleeding and swelling would have been greater?

    If the headblow occurred first either accidently or intentionally but not intended to be mortal, why was JonBenet denied medical assistance, whilst when Burke whacked her with a golf club, she was off to hospital immediately?

    If you look at the following pictures then one thing seems apparent:

    Picture 1.
    [​IMG]
    Note the bruising beneath the ligature furrow, it appears on either side of her neck, and is not circumferential, there is a gap between the bruising.

    Picture 2.
    [​IMG]
    This is a sideview of neck and garrote, note how less embedded the furrow actually appears?

    Picture 3.
    [​IMG]
    Now although it appears obvious there is only one circumferential furrow to be seen on the back of her neck. Should there not be two, the other corresponding with the bruising beneath the ligature furrow at the front of her neck as seen on Picture 1.?

    Does the bruising lying beneath the ligature furrow, as seen on pictures 1 and 2, suggest a manual strangulation, with the garroting intended to mask this event?

    This assumption seems consistent with the forensic evidence and any consequent staging?


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  6. CanManEh

    CanManEh New Member

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    what do u people on here do .just delete the posts that dont go with your theory i have commented on this 3 times now yet its not here anywhere ,
     
  7. rocket

    rocket JLWOP Opponent

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    Sex play. Strangulation was not intended to cause death. When her body began to convulse and attempts at resuscitation did not work, a "mercy" killing was conducted by way of head trauma to cause a quick death.
     
  8. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    She screamed, and was bashed on the head to silence her, IMHO.

    The only method of strangulation in the autopsy report is ligature strangulation; no mention or suggestion of manual strangulation. I don't know what would be gained by deliberately omitting it, and I would hope Meyer could tell if such had occurred and played a part in her death.

    But, 'ya never know.
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,

    Sure and that is because he is itemising what he reckons are the contributing factors towards the cause of death.

    e.g.

    Note the missing word ligature, so patently the prosecution if there were ever a trial, might have a field day quizzing Coroner Meyer precisely what he meant by asphyxia by strangulation?

    Possibly, why not place a hand over her mouth, why bash her on the head?

    Lets assume you are correct, someone has whacked JonBenet on the head with the ensuing cranial damage iterated in the autopsy report. This must mean that the bruising lying beneath the ligature furrow resulted from an initial attempt to garrote JonBenet. Now since there is no corresponding ligature furrow on the back of her neck, maybe they never tried forcibly enough, so moved the cord up an inch or two and tried again, this time adding the piece of paintbrush handle?

    So we go immediately from a head injury, assumed to be unintended, to a full scale homicide complete with garrote staging etc?

    imo something does not add up here, there is some evidence missing, maybe Coroner Meyer did redact some evidence, his opaque use of terminology e.g. birefringent foreign material lends some weight here, since wood, paint or cellulose splinter would have been just as informative. It may be he was attempting to give the impression that the cause of death was not inconsistent with the staging?



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  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rocket,
    So why not simply smother her, which also keeps her quiet?
     
  11. SuperDave

    SuperDave Active Member

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    That's the Wecht theory, rocket.

    The pathologists who worked with the police said that the head blow was fully developed. Werner Spitz, Henry Lee and Ronald Wright all said it could have been anywhere from ten minutes to an hour.
     
  12. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    :bang: haha Im still confused, your right though, both could have occurred at the same time. However it would be difficult to do both at the EXACT same time, so if both did occur at the same time, it would fit the next posters theory of how maybe she was strangled, that didnt work so she was bashed. That leads me to believe in the sex abuse theory (I am an avid RDI theorist)I had. Ive always thought if it was an accident then Patsy did it, If it were on purpose then the father did it to cover something up MOO. I hate saying anything to badly about Patsy though, from others viewpoints that knew her, she seemed like a decent person. MOO
     
  13. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    that would explain the scream the neighbors heard too!
     
  14. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    Geez, I didnt want to see those pics again, but i see what your saying! Poor poor baby, I want to kill whoever did that to her!!! I see what you are refering to about the ligature bruising on one side but not the other, it doesnt seem possible, ive said that from the beginning (why would anyone strangle a child in such a fashion when hands could have easily done the trick? unless it was a weird sex fantasy.) anyway, those marks on the front of her neck, they look like finger nail marks ive always thought that, but are they nail marks or petechia? (sp?).

    Unfortunately I still wish somehow she could be exhumed so we could find out what happened first because if there is a way to tell then it would answer many questions. I dont understand if Ramseys claimed they didnt have anything to do with this, why bury her so quickly? I would want my daughters body studied until they found the son of a beee that did it! MOO
     
  15. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    ewww the thought ......
     
  16. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    An experienced Coroner should know, i saw something on tv where they said if the person was strangled manually, usually there is this certain bone in their neck that would break from the pressure. I dont recall seeing in the report about this broken bone. Its so confusing.
     
  17. PolyGraph

    PolyGraph New Member

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    Hi Dave! haha Ive emailed you before remember me? lol. Anyway, what do you mean by the head blow was fully developed? Im pulling a duh moment sorry. :confused:
     
  18. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    That bone is called the hyoid bone. The report mentions that it was not broken in JBR, which is why some believe the strangulation was not meant to kill her. In one of the photos, you can clearly see where the ligature had dug deeply into her neck, but strangulation victims also will have some swelling in the head/neck- possibly that is why her neck folds over the mark- it could also be the position of her head that caused the fold. Without seeing the whole image in the photo, it is hard to tell.

    As far as exhuming the body at this point- it has been 12 years. Embalming can delay decomposition for a brief period (days, weeks if the body is refrigerated) but after 12 years there will not be a lot of soft tissue left, especially in a child. I don't know if an exhumation will give us much more information.
     
  19. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 New Member

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    The first page of the autopsy report itemizes the causes of death, and lists several items; item 1 is "Ligature Strangulation".
    http://www.acandyrose.com/1227996jonbenet01.gif

    I see at the bottom of the page Meyer's comments on asphyxia by strangulation. There he does not mention the ligature, but it is the first thing he mentions in the report. I assume Meyer would state if there had been evidence of manual as well as ligature strangulation; as we know, there is probably much that had been redacted from that report. Maybe that info was as well.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    I agree with you. The report appears to be unambiguously stating JonBenet was killed by a combination of head injury and ligature strangulation.

    I reckon by the time the autopsy was finished Coroner Meyer knew and had told his attending colleagues that a lot of what was presented seemed like staging, so along with his alleged verbatim remarks e.g.

    Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997
    Ramsey warrant dated January 30, 1997
    Also from the Autopsy Report
    If you combine the latter highlighted points along with Meyer's verbatim remarks I reckon he is stating JonBenet had been sexually molested. Thats what epithelial erosion, capillary congestion and vascular congestion along with chronic inflammation suggest e.g. that the abuse was historical and ongoing. Now his last sentence may be suggesting a cutoff point for her death after being molested since there has not been time for the acute inflammatory infiltrate to develop, or he may be indicating that although acute, the lack of inflammatory infiltrate suggests JonBenet was already dead when the injury was inflicted?

    So without Detective Arndt's evidence we would be in the dark as to precisely how to interpret the autopsy report. Now Coroner Meyer does not explicitly spell out in his report that there was historical abuse, or that he thinks there was sexual contact which is distinct from physical contact intended to injure. His use of obscure terminology such as birefringent foreign material. suggests to me that his report is intentionally ambiguous, probably with a view to fooling JonBenet's killer into thinking much of the staging has worked?

    Maybe this is why there is no mention of manual strangulation just as there is no mention of prior abuse, yet he itemizes the evidence, just as he itemizes the evidence for the manual strangulation etc.


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  21. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    PolyGraph,
    The major injuries sustained by JonBenet may have occurred simultaneously or sequentially.

    Theoretically they may have occurred at the EXACT same time since JonBenet may have reacted by moving her head backwards as she was being manually strangled thus striking some hard suface, or the momentum of the manual strangulation propelled her to strike some solid object?

    The sequential model has her being manually strangled but on release and falling unconcious to the floor striking her head on some solid object. Alternately she is whacked on the head say using a flashlight whilst she lies unconcious? A flashlight was later recovered and found to have been wiped clean.

    Some think that the lividity present surrounding the ligature furrow e.g. the whitening would be missing if the ligature was wholly staging, this is consistent with Coroner Meyer's conclusion as Ligature Strangulation being a cause of death.

    So it appears that JonBenet sustained a head injury and was then in short succession ligature strangled leaving little time for bleeding into or inflamation of her brain.

    This tells you little of what went before, yet we know the Coroner suspected chronic sexual abuse, along with a cleanup of JonBenet's genital area. So it appears the whole story never mind all the forensic evidence has not been made public yet?


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