Who do you think is guilty? I'm relatively new here and...

Why clam up at the bowl of pineapple then? Everyone knows what's in the bowl. It looks like pineapple. It was the favorite fruit of both of the kids. Patsy admitted it. But all 3 of them had no answer for what was clearly pineapple in the picture of pineapple in a bowl. The blow by the flashlight came before the noose. John and Patsy would have enough sense not to hit a little girl in the head with a flashlight no matter how upset they were at her. A little boy though might not understand.

There are conflicting reports about the blow: some say it came before, some say it was almost simultaneous, some say it came way before, some say after. Also, we don't know definitively what caused the blow (you say flashlight, but again, that isn't definitive).

I know the CBS special made people believe that a nine year old could have caused enough damage to cause the blow, but that's unrealistic in my view. JBR was not perfectly stationary and this was a real human being; not some fake skull and wax like they used in the television program.

I don't see how the pineapple has anything to do with it one way or the other. They all distanced themselves from it. In my view, they forgot to dispose of it in all the chaos that night; or they weren't smart enough to realize it would be found in her digestive tract, and just left it out.
 
They both went to great lengths to keep Burke out of it. Patsy claimed Burke was sleeping. We know there's proof that's a lie. The most important words to listen for when someone is making a confession is when they say they or someone else was asleep when the crime took place. They do that to distance the person from the possibility of committing the crime. There's no way Burke could have committed the crime if he was asleep? Since you can't place the person away from the scene, the next best thing is to say that they weren't even conscious when the actual crime took place. It's also a way to tell others that since this person wasn't awake when the crime happened, there's no reason to question him because he doesn't know anything period, didn't see nor hear anything. I think both parents did their separate things. Patsy started on a ransom letter and John went to stage a killing. Poor parents though, she wasn't even dead yet, they could have saved her life if they had driven her to the hospital. Patsy's words on the RN. Foreign factions don't use American high society slang. John's boyscout's garrote. Foreign factions don't learn that garrote in guerrilla scouts;every country I've been to has had their own way of tying rope, believe it or not; subtle differences. That's why the crime was half kidnapping and half straight up murder. PR called the police to report a kidnapping for ransom and never looked over to the phone again for the rest of the day. She knew they had the money to pay it. They'd pretend to pay the ransom without getting JB back. This would clearly clear them. JR hid the body and locked the cellar door. I'm not sure if JR knew that PR called the police yet at this point. If he did, he too wasn't thinking clearly. I don't think they thought the police were going to be there all day. He might've gotten nervous. What if there was a smell? What if they decided to question Burke thoroughly? He had to make sure he had control over the finding of the body and that nobody needs Burke's help to find his sister.

It wasn't just about saving him from jail, public scrutiny, etc. JR/PR grew up in an era that feared mental institutions where in their haydays we're performing lobotomies and other progressive treatments and experiments. It was a place you went to and got worse, and died there. Families put their would be autistic children in there. A very small number of mental institutions were still running by 1996. They didn't want him taken away and placed in a ward. Many people formed the opinion that Burke is on the autism spectrum, from watching his interview. I'd say the Ramsays did the right thing. They cheated the system and it worked. Burke grew up to be a rather peaceful child.

How would this have played out if the Ramsays were not rich and influential? If this had happened in a crime ridden area? The police would've all looked at them suspiciously and no one was going to "clear" them of a crime scene that had all three of their DNA in it.

dreamwarrior66,
Patsy claimed Burke was sleeping. We know there's proof that's a lie.
Sure, here it is:

THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER
April 3, 2001

RAMSEYS CHANGE THEIR STORY ABOUT MURDER NIGHT

...

"John and Patsy Ramsey have changed the story they told cops about their daughter JonBenet's murder -- they now admit their son Burke was awake during that Christmas 1996 nightmare!

In an exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the nation's most infamous murder suspects say Burke was jolted awake by screams in their Boulder, Colo. home.

"Burke knew something horrible had happened. He heard us screaming. He heard Patsy ...a woman in terror," John confessed. "We thought he was asleep but he wasn't. Burke was awake.

"Burke was frightened. He had tears in his eyes. He knew something very, very wrong was going on."

Until being questioned by The ENQUIRER, the Ramseys had always insisted that Burke was still sleeping when police arrived at their home after Patsy's 911 call.

But now John has admitted to The ENQUIRER that Burke woke up before the 911 call was placed at 5:52 a.m. to summon police.

Then there is the pineapple, did the parents lie about that too, or did they just, like, forget?

Consider John did not forget about the Partially Opened Christmas Gifts, originally he said Patsy never knew they were in the wine-cellar, e.g. only John knew.

Consider John did not forget about the broken window or the samsonite suitcase, he had an explanation for those things.

Consider Patsy did not forget giving JonBenet her older neice's size-12 underwear, or putting Burke's longjohns on JonBenet.

Generally the parents did not forget about stuff that related to their version of events, so maybe they never knew about the pineapple snack, and the person who served JonBenet did forget about it?

They cheated the system and it worked. Burke grew up to be a rather peaceful child.
Well we will have to wait and see how this one plays out, since once JR leaves us BR will be off the leash, so to speak?

How would this have played out if the Ramsays were not rich and influential?
The whole family would have been charged with homicide and related felony charges, found guilty and been jailed, period.

Just like BDI was an off the wall theory years ago, today so is BDI All, but just like BDI is consistent with the evidence, BDI All becomes understandable if the All part was mostly tweaked away by the parents, as they staged a basement crime-scene.

I'm guessing this is what Kolar is hinting at in his book, since the sexual assault as staging does not fly, which means there was the possibility of an apparent post-mortem or comatose assault?

Which explains why the paintbrush was coopted into the making of the garrote, e.g. an ambiguous dual use by one of the parents?

.
 
Actually, it seems that there is. We've discussed that about 1,5 months ago in another thread. It says there were two ligatures, both made of the same material. That would for example explain the fibers in the bed.

I'm new and I have some questions to the JBR case

That excerpt is vague and the autopsy report (which I value over Thomas' excerpt, personally) doesn't mention a second strangulation occurring.

Like pretty much everything in this case, there once again are conflicting reports on the subject.
 
Actually, it seems that there is. We've discussed that about 1,5 months ago in another thread. It says there were two ligatures, both made of the same material. That would for example explain the fibers in the bed.

I'm new and I have some questions to the JBR case

Loulani,
Consider the ligature asphyxiation as staging engineered to mask a prior manual asphyxiation.

Similar could apply to JonBenet's head injury, e.g. it was a failed attempt at presenting a visible cause of death?

.
 
Loulani,
Consider the ligature asphyxiation as staging engineered to mask a prior manual asphyxiation.

Similar could apply to JonBenet's head injury, e.g. it was a failed attempt at presenting a visible cause of death?

.

It could be that the 2nd was made by the parents and was engineered solely to cover the first. It could be as well that the 2nd was made by Burke to drag the body. The paint brush was broken at two ends afaik and Burke's knife was found nearby so to me that means that he was somewhat close to the paintbrushs. Would the parents "care" to construct a device to (fake) strangle their daughter and break the paint brush on two ends? That seems to me like a lot of effort in the mind of an adult cuz it wouldn't matter if the handle was 2 inches longer or shorter. But maybe it matters for an almost 10 yo boy scout? Cuz he was taught the "perfect" size for a dragging device or read about it in a book?

Another thing to think about is the visible violence that the ligature shows. Now only does it cut deeply into JonBenets neck (which i think happened while she was dragged with the handle of the ligature). The amount of pulled out hair that is stuck in the knot shows very little care for her (in contrary to the tied together hands for example that show a lot of care for the child).

About the head injury... I don't believe it was a failed attempt of covering up, I think it was genuine attempt of at least knocking her out (so she wouldnt tell about the sexual assault or to punish her for stealing pineapple and being Patsy's favorite?). If the parents wanted to present a visible cause of death they could have used an axe or a knife. They could have stabbed her in the heart for example, or they could have smashed the head more than once. But she was hit once only so I don't think it was to cover up the crime that was later presented to the police.
 
That excerpt is vague and the autopsy report (which I value over Thomas' excerpt, personally) doesn't mention a second strangulation occurring.

Like pretty much everything in this case, there once again are conflicting reports on the subject.
The autopsy report is also missing estimated time of death afaik isn't it?
 
Even years later, I really don't have a clue who really murdered JB.

I have no idea who did it nor have I ever seen any irrefutable evidence that proves who did it.

Maybe one day. Hopefully.

Imo
 
It could be that the 2nd was made by the parents and was engineered solely to cover the first. It could be as well that the 2nd was made by Burke to drag the body. The paint brush was broken at two ends afaik and Burke's knife was found nearby so to me that means that he was somewhat close to the paintbrushs. Would the parents "care" to construct a device to (fake) strangle their daughter and break the paint brush on two ends? That seems to me like a lot of effort in the mind of an adult cuz it wouldn't matter if the handle was 2 inches longer or shorter. But maybe it matters for an almost 10 yo boy scout? Cuz he was taught the "perfect" size for a dragging device or read about it in a book?

Another thing to think about is the visible violence that the ligature shows. Now only does it cut deeply into JonBenets neck (which i think happened while she was dragged with the handle of the ligature). The amount of pulled out hair that is stuck in the knot shows very little care for her (in contrary to the tied together hands for example that show a lot of care for the child).

About the head injury... I don't believe it was a failed attempt of covering up, I think it was genuine attempt of at least knocking her out (so she wouldnt tell about the sexual assault or to punish her for stealing pineapple and being Patsy's favorite?). If the parents wanted to present a visible cause of death they could have used an axe or a knife. They could have stabbed her in the heart for example, or they could have smashed the head more than once. But she was hit once only so I don't think it was to cover up the crime that was later presented to the police.


Loulani,
It could be that the 2nd was made by the parents and was engineered solely to cover the first. It could be as well that the 2nd was made by Burke to drag the body.
Yes Burke may have dragged JonBenet, but why would he need to use a paintbrush, he has perfectly usable hands.

The paint brush was broken at two ends afaik and Burke's knife was found nearby so to me that means that he was somewhat close to the paintbrushs.
Only if its BDI All. Maybe the parents are staging the wine-cellar to remove Burke from the crime-scene, which was likely located upstairs?

Would the parents "care" to construct a device to (fake) strangle their daughter and break the paint brush on two ends?
Sure, what if you intend it as dual purpose, e.g. sexual assault and ligature handle?

But maybe it matters for an almost 10 yo boy scout? Cuz he was taught the "perfect" size for a dragging device or read about it in a book?
Nah, its a homicide, there are no gold stars for neat measurements!

Seems to me as if the parents are staging the ligature asphyxiation to mask a prior neck compression. JonBenet's acute sexual assault is cleaned up and hidden from view, suggesting its for real, with the possibility of a staged sexual assault using the paintbrush?

The thing is neither parent would choose to stage JonBenet wearing Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear and Burke's longjohns, something sweet and neat would have been selected from her voluminous wardrobe, do not forget guys these peeps were millionares.

I get the impression the wine-cellar is the end result of staging by Burke, John and Patsy, it could be anyone of them, there is no smoking gun, but based on the Grand Jury and those True Bills, including those still sealed, it looks like the case is BDI?

Its just to what extent, i.e. plain vanilla BDI or BDI All, along Kolar's lines with hints at spectrum disorders?

.
 
Loulani,

Yes Burke may have dragged JonBenet, but why would he need to use a paintbrush, he has perfectly usable hands.


Only if its BDI All. Maybe the parents are staging the wine-cellar to remove Burke from the crime-scene, which was likely located upstairs?


Sure, what if you intend it as dual purpose, e.g. sexual assault and ligature handle?


Nah, its a homicide, there are no gold stars for neat measurements!

Seems to me as if the parents are staging the ligature asphyxiation to mask a prior neck compression. JonBenet's acute sexual assault is cleaned up and hidden from view, suggesting its for real, with the possibility of a staged sexual assault using the paintbrush?

The thing is neither parent would choose to stage JonBenet wearing Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear and Burke's longjohns, something sweet and neat would have been selected from her voluminous wardrobe, do not forget guys these peeps were millionares.

I get the impression the wine-cellar is the end result of staging by Burke, John and Patsy, it could be anyone of them, there is no smoking gun, but based on the Grand Jury and those True Bills, including those still sealed, it looks like the case is BDI?

Its just to what extent, i.e. plain vanilla BDI or BDI All, along Kolar's lines with hints at spectrum disorders?

.

Yes Burke may have dragged JonBenet, but why would he need to use a paintbrush, he has perfectly usable hands.

There's a thing called "Schlittenseil" or "Schlittenleine" in German (I'm from Germany, pls google cuz I dunno if I'm allowed to post links here or not) and there's a proper English word for a construction like that as well but I forgot it. It's used to pull sleighs but constructions like that were also used to pull other things in the past (with thicker ropes/cords, my dad still has one of those lying around). I think Burke tried to construct that to drag her. Her body should be quite heavy so pulling her with his bare hands would probably prove to be rather difficult for him.

Only if its BDI All. Maybe the parents are staging the wine-cellar to remove Burke from the crime-scene, which was likely located upstairs?

I do think it's BDI all (headblow, sexual assault, strangulation). I believe the parents found her dead, relocated her (in or to the basement, idk), covered her with a blanket and tied her hands together. They also dumped the pink barbie night gown next to her. They wiped her down and they redressed at least parts of what she was wearing while she was murdered.

Sure, what if you intend it as dual purpose, e.g. sexual assault and ligature handle?

I don't think they would to be honest because I would think breaking it once would be enough. Also, weren't fragments of the wood of the paint brush found inside her? But yes, I do think she was assaulted with objects like that prior to the murder and during the night of the murder. So the paint brush could have been used for both, the assault and the ligature handle.

Nah, its a homicide, there are no gold stars for neat measurements!

You think? I feel like children would try to be much more accurate with things like that than adults because they learned it in a certain way and will try to reproduce it in the exact same way.

Seems to me as if the parents are staging the ligature asphyxiation to mask a prior neck compression.

It could be, yes, but I myself can't connect the violence, which the ligature was used with, to the care that the hands were treated with. Why tie the hands together so gentle and be so rough on the neck. Makes no sense to me. Unless one was done by John and the other by Patsy, but I think the ligature asphyxiation is real, done by Burke.

JonBenet's acute sexual assault is cleaned up and hidden from view, suggesting its for real, with the possibility of a staged sexual assault using the paintbrush?

Here were a couple of happenings in the past 2 years where kindergarten children were assaulted by other kindergarten children with foreign objects. I think that Burke repeatedly assaulted JonBenét with foreign objects. Did Burke sleep in her bed or did she sleep in his bed? Soiling oneself is a common practice of sexual abuse victims, an attempt to prevent further assault. I think the parents cleaned up the real sexual assault, which was done with said paint brush.


The thing is neither parent would choose to stage JonBenet wearing Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear and Burke's longjohns, something sweet and neat would have been selected from her voluminous wardrobe, do not forget guys these peeps were millionares.

I totally agree that this is odd to say the least. Maybe Burke redressed her in an attempt to cover up his crime?


I get the impression the wine-cellar is the end result of staging by Burke, John and Patsy, it could be anyone of them, there is no smoking gun, but based on the Grand Jury and those True Bills, including those still sealed, it looks like the case is BDI?

I think so, too. I think Burke did most of it and then tried to hide the body. Patsy was done packing or heard sth I dunno. She went and asked Burke where his sister was. He maybe said she's hiding, they should search the whole house (afaik he told that to police as well, why would he, such an odd sentence). Eventually they found it and lost it, then decided to cover up, wrote the note and called police.

Its just to what extent, i.e. plain vanilla BDI or BDI All, along Kolar's lines with hints at spectrum disorders?

I think it's BDI all. I dunno whether it was an extreme form of sibling rivalry or personality disorder or both. But I have severe doubts that Patsy or John would assault or fake assault their daughter, I also doubt they would fake strangle her like that and pull strands of hair while doing so, and then tie her hands together so gently and softly (you see, the tied together hands matter a lot to me) and on top of that cover her with a blanket.
 

toggle-rope-short.jpg

Really sorry that my english sucks regarding this. What I meant (but lacked the German and therefore the English word for it) is a boy scout toggle rope!
 
There's a thing called "Schlittenseil" or "Schlittenleine" in German (I'm from Germany, pls google cuz I dunno if I'm allowed to post links here or not) and there's a proper English word for a construction like that as well but I forgot it. It's used to pull sleighs but constructions like that were also used to pull other things in the past (with thicker ropes/cords, my dad still has one of those lying around). I think Burke tried to construct that to drag her. Her body should be quite heavy so pulling her with his bare hands would probably prove to be rather difficult for him.

...

I think it's BDI all. I dunno whether it was an extreme form of sibling rivalry or personality disorder or both. But I have severe doubts that Patsy or John would assault or fake assault their daughter, I also doubt they would fake strangle her like that and pull strands of hair while doing so, and then tie her hands together so gently and softly (you see, the tied together hands matter a lot to me) and on top of that cover her with a blanket.

Loulani,
Hunter knew one of the R's assaulted and killed JonBenet, so did the GJ hence the True Bills. The thing is Hunter knew he would never win the case in an open court due to overlapping and conflicting forensic evidence and that the case would be a Global Media Circus, so they all agreed to shut it down.

The thing is I do not think the wine-cellar staging is all Burke, I reckon its mostly Patsy and John tweaking whatever Burke came up with upstairs?

The True Bills say there is a third party, i.e. Patsy, John and the person feloniously assisted in the homicide of JonBenet.

Who else can it be other than Burke, it cannot be John or Patsy as they can be charged with Murder in the First Degree, it simply runs along side their current True Bill counts?

Two aspects which are clues is 1. the GJ thinks someone other than the parents killed JonBenet, 2. was the paintbrush used in the same manner as the ligature/paintbrush staging?

1. Means JonBenet could have been asphyxiated upstairs with the parents staging it later down in the basement.

2. If you think it all began in JonBenet's bedroom then why does Burke need to travel downstairs for a paintbrush to assault JonBenet? How about something else being used upstairs to assault JonBenet causing her to bleed internally, which is later cleaned up in attempt to hide it, and subsequently part of the paintbrush is used to assault JonBenet in an attempt to mask the prior acute assault?

To create your boy scout toggle rope then nobody needs to break the paintbrush, even to fabricate an asphyxiation device the paintbrush does not need to be broken, in the context of an asphyxiation the paintbrush is really redundant, but the wine-cellar stager patently has a use for the broken pieces, all of which are lost on us?

I think it's BDI all. I dunno whether it was an extreme form of sibling rivalry or personality disorder or both.
It looks like Burke and JonBenet were left to their own devices by Patsy and John, hence the GJ True Bill counts of neglect.

Its likely a mix of sibling rivalry and a personality disorder resulting in Burke going Postal on JonBenet which puts her in a coma and begins a train of events that ends with JonBenet in the wine-cellar.

There is probably nothing linear or premeditated about it, just the culmination of prior abuse and family tensions overflowing at Christmas Time?

.
 
John had nothing to do with any of it.
Burke had nothing to do with any of it.
The group of individuals inside Patsy's mind DID it all. Imo.
 
The thing is neither parent would choose to stage JonBenet wearing Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear and Burke's longjohns, something sweet and neat would have been selected from her voluminous wardrobe, do not forget guys these peeps were millionares.

If you dissect the minutiae of how JBR ended up wearing the size-12-14 underwear, it leads you to Burke as the one who redressed her.
 
If you dissect the minutiae of how JBR ended up wearing the size-12-14 underwear, it leads you to Burke as the one who redressed her.

Cottonstar,
Sure, I agree. What parent is going to say everything was normal the night before and redress their daughter in an older girls underwear and her brothers longjohns to stage her in her normal bedtime clothing?

This was part of Burke's contribution to the staging, which should flag up how evasive he intended to be?

Not quite the geeky 9-year as characterized in the books.



.
 
Patsy put the Wednesday panties on JonBenet to reinforce in her mind the death occured on Christmas as it was supposed to because she actually died on the 26th. Christmas was on Wednesday in 1996. Imo.
 
Last edited:

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
87
Guests online
2,243
Total visitors
2,330

Forum statistics

Threads
590,011
Messages
17,928,979
Members
228,038
Latest member
shmoozie
Back
Top