Who do you think is guilty? I'm relatively new here and...

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by blueclouds, Oct 24, 2003.

  1. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    There are conflicting reports about the blow: some say it came before, some say it was almost simultaneous, some say it came way before, some say after. Also, we don't know definitively what caused the blow (you say flashlight, but again, that isn't definitive).

    I know the CBS special made people believe that a nine year old could have caused enough damage to cause the blow, but that's unrealistic in my view. JBR was not perfectly stationary and this was a real human being; not some fake skull and wax like they used in the television program.

    I don't see how the pineapple has anything to do with it one way or the other. They all distanced themselves from it. In my view, they forgot to dispose of it in all the chaos that night; or they weren't smart enough to realize it would be found in her digestive tract, and just left it out.
     
  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    dreamwarrior66,
    Sure, here it is:

    Then there is the pineapple, did the parents lie about that too, or did they just, like, forget?

    Consider John did not forget about the Partially Opened Christmas Gifts, originally he said Patsy never knew they were in the wine-cellar, e.g. only John knew.

    Consider John did not forget about the broken window or the samsonite suitcase, he had an explanation for those things.

    Consider Patsy did not forget giving JonBenet her older neice's size-12 underwear, or putting Burke's longjohns on JonBenet.

    Generally the parents did not forget about stuff that related to their version of events, so maybe they never knew about the pineapple snack, and the person who served JonBenet did forget about it?

    Well we will have to wait and see how this one plays out, since once JR leaves us BR will be off the leash, so to speak?

    The whole family would have been charged with homicide and related felony charges, found guilty and been jailed, period.

    Just like BDI was an off the wall theory years ago, today so is BDI All, but just like BDI is consistent with the evidence, BDI All becomes understandable if the All part was mostly tweaked away by the parents, as they staged a basement crime-scene.

    I'm guessing this is what Kolar is hinting at in his book, since the sexual assault as staging does not fly, which means there was the possibility of an apparent post-mortem or comatose assault?

    Which explains why the paintbrush was coopted into the making of the garrote, e.g. an ambiguous dual use by one of the parents?

    .
     
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  3. Loulani

    Loulani New Member

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    Actually, it seems that there is. We've discussed that about 1,5 months ago in another thread. It says there were two ligatures, both made of the same material. That would for example explain the fibers in the bed.

    I'm new and I have some questions to the JBR case
     
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  4. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    That excerpt is vague and the autopsy report (which I value over Thomas' excerpt, personally) doesn't mention a second strangulation occurring.

    Like pretty much everything in this case, there once again are conflicting reports on the subject.
     
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  5. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Loulani,
    Consider the ligature asphyxiation as staging engineered to mask a prior manual asphyxiation.

    Similar could apply to JonBenet's head injury, e.g. it was a failed attempt at presenting a visible cause of death?

    .
     
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  6. Loulani

    Loulani New Member

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    It could be that the 2nd was made by the parents and was engineered solely to cover the first. It could be as well that the 2nd was made by Burke to drag the body. The paint brush was broken at two ends afaik and Burke's knife was found nearby so to me that means that he was somewhat close to the paintbrushs. Would the parents "care" to construct a device to (fake) strangle their daughter and break the paint brush on two ends? That seems to me like a lot of effort in the mind of an adult cuz it wouldn't matter if the handle was 2 inches longer or shorter. But maybe it matters for an almost 10 yo boy scout? Cuz he was taught the "perfect" size for a dragging device or read about it in a book?

    Another thing to think about is the visible violence that the ligature shows. Now only does it cut deeply into JonBenets neck (which i think happened while she was dragged with the handle of the ligature). The amount of pulled out hair that is stuck in the knot shows very little care for her (in contrary to the tied together hands for example that show a lot of care for the child).

    About the head injury... I don't believe it was a failed attempt of covering up, I think it was genuine attempt of at least knocking her out (so she wouldnt tell about the sexual assault or to punish her for stealing pineapple and being Patsy's favorite?). If the parents wanted to present a visible cause of death they could have used an axe or a knife. They could have stabbed her in the heart for example, or they could have smashed the head more than once. But she was hit once only so I don't think it was to cover up the crime that was later presented to the police.
     
  7. Loulani

    Loulani New Member

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    The autopsy report is also missing estimated time of death afaik isn't it?
     
  8. oceanblueeyes

    oceanblueeyes Well-Known Member

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    Even years later, I really don't have a clue who really murdered JB.

    I have no idea who did it nor have I ever seen any irrefutable evidence that proves who did it.

    Maybe one day. Hopefully.

    Imo
     
  9. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Loulani,
    Yes Burke may have dragged JonBenet, but why would he need to use a paintbrush, he has perfectly usable hands.

    Only if its BDI All. Maybe the parents are staging the wine-cellar to remove Burke from the crime-scene, which was likely located upstairs?

    Sure, what if you intend it as dual purpose, e.g. sexual assault and ligature handle?

    Nah, its a homicide, there are no gold stars for neat measurements!

    Seems to me as if the parents are staging the ligature asphyxiation to mask a prior neck compression. JonBenet's acute sexual assault is cleaned up and hidden from view, suggesting its for real, with the possibility of a staged sexual assault using the paintbrush?

    The thing is neither parent would choose to stage JonBenet wearing Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear and Burke's longjohns, something sweet and neat would have been selected from her voluminous wardrobe, do not forget guys these peeps were millionares.

    I get the impression the wine-cellar is the end result of staging by Burke, John and Patsy, it could be anyone of them, there is no smoking gun, but based on the Grand Jury and those True Bills, including those still sealed, it looks like the case is BDI?

    Its just to what extent, i.e. plain vanilla BDI or BDI All, along Kolar's lines with hints at spectrum disorders?

    .
     
  10. Loulani

    Loulani New Member

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    There's a thing called "Schlittenseil" or "Schlittenleine" in German (I'm from Germany, pls google cuz I dunno if I'm allowed to post links here or not) and there's a proper English word for a construction like that as well but I forgot it. It's used to pull sleighs but constructions like that were also used to pull other things in the past (with thicker ropes/cords, my dad still has one of those lying around). I think Burke tried to construct that to drag her. Her body should be quite heavy so pulling her with his bare hands would probably prove to be rather difficult for him.

    I do think it's BDI all (headblow, sexual assault, strangulation). I believe the parents found her dead, relocated her (in or to the basement, idk), covered her with a blanket and tied her hands together. They also dumped the pink barbie night gown next to her. They wiped her down and they redressed at least parts of what she was wearing while she was murdered.

    I don't think they would to be honest because I would think breaking it once would be enough. Also, weren't fragments of the wood of the paint brush found inside her? But yes, I do think she was assaulted with objects like that prior to the murder and during the night of the murder. So the paint brush could have been used for both, the assault and the ligature handle.

    You think? I feel like children would try to be much more accurate with things like that than adults because they learned it in a certain way and will try to reproduce it in the exact same way.

    It could be, yes, but I myself can't connect the violence, which the ligature was used with, to the care that the hands were treated with. Why tie the hands together so gentle and be so rough on the neck. Makes no sense to me. Unless one was done by John and the other by Patsy, but I think the ligature asphyxiation is real, done by Burke.

    Here were a couple of happenings in the past 2 years where kindergarten children were assaulted by other kindergarten children with foreign objects. I think that Burke repeatedly assaulted JonBenét with foreign objects. Did Burke sleep in her bed or did she sleep in his bed? Soiling oneself is a common practice of sexual abuse victims, an attempt to prevent further assault. I think the parents cleaned up the real sexual assault, which was done with said paint brush.


    I totally agree that this is odd to say the least. Maybe Burke redressed her in an attempt to cover up his crime?


    I think so, too. I think Burke did most of it and then tried to hide the body. Patsy was done packing or heard sth I dunno. She went and asked Burke where his sister was. He maybe said she's hiding, they should search the whole house (afaik he told that to police as well, why would he, such an odd sentence). Eventually they found it and lost it, then decided to cover up, wrote the note and called police.

    I think it's BDI all. I dunno whether it was an extreme form of sibling rivalry or personality disorder or both. But I have severe doubts that Patsy or John would assault or fake assault their daughter, I also doubt they would fake strangle her like that and pull strands of hair while doing so, and then tie her hands together so gently and softly (you see, the tied together hands matter a lot to me) and on top of that cover her with a blanket.
     
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  11. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    Burke had nothing to do with any of it.
     
  12. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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  13. Loulani

    Loulani New Member

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  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Loulani,
    Hunter knew one of the R's assaulted and killed JonBenet, so did the GJ hence the True Bills. The thing is Hunter knew he would never win the case in an open court due to overlapping and conflicting forensic evidence and that the case would be a Global Media Circus, so they all agreed to shut it down.

    The thing is I do not think the wine-cellar staging is all Burke, I reckon its mostly Patsy and John tweaking whatever Burke came up with upstairs?

    The True Bills say there is a third party, i.e. Patsy, John and the person feloniously assisted in the homicide of JonBenet.

    Who else can it be other than Burke, it cannot be John or Patsy as they can be charged with Murder in the First Degree, it simply runs along side their current True Bill counts?

    Two aspects which are clues is 1. the GJ thinks someone other than the parents killed JonBenet, 2. was the paintbrush used in the same manner as the ligature/paintbrush staging?

    1. Means JonBenet could have been asphyxiated upstairs with the parents staging it later down in the basement.

    2. If you think it all began in JonBenet's bedroom then why does Burke need to travel downstairs for a paintbrush to assault JonBenet? How about something else being used upstairs to assault JonBenet causing her to bleed internally, which is later cleaned up in attempt to hide it, and subsequently part of the paintbrush is used to assault JonBenet in an attempt to mask the prior acute assault?

    To create your boy scout toggle rope then nobody needs to break the paintbrush, even to fabricate an asphyxiation device the paintbrush does not need to be broken, in the context of an asphyxiation the paintbrush is really redundant, but the wine-cellar stager patently has a use for the broken pieces, all of which are lost on us?

    It looks like Burke and JonBenet were left to their own devices by Patsy and John, hence the GJ True Bill counts of neglect.

    Its likely a mix of sibling rivalry and a personality disorder resulting in Burke going Postal on JonBenet which puts her in a coma and begins a train of events that ends with JonBenet in the wine-cellar.

    There is probably nothing linear or premeditated about it, just the culmination of prior abuse and family tensions overflowing at Christmas Time?

    .
     
  15. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    John had nothing to do with any of it.
    Burke had nothing to do with any of it.
    The group of individuals inside Patsy's mind DID it all. Imo.
     
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  16. David Rogers

    David Rogers Active Member

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    Or her dad.
     
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  17. Cottonstar

    Cottonstar Well-Known Member

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    If you dissect the minutiae of how JBR ended up wearing the size-12-14 underwear, it leads you to Burke as the one who redressed her.
     
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  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Cottonstar,
    Sure, I agree. What parent is going to say everything was normal the night before and redress their daughter in an older girls underwear and her brothers longjohns to stage her in her normal bedtime clothing?

    This was part of Burke's contribution to the staging, which should flag up how evasive he intended to be?

    Not quite the geeky 9-year as characterized in the books.



    .
     
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  19. Dragognosis

    Dragognosis Active Member

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    Patsy put the Wednesday panties on JonBenet to reinforce in her mind the death occured on Christmas as it was supposed to because she actually died on the 26th. Christmas was on Wednesday in 1996. Imo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019 at 4:14 AM
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  20. Userid

    Userid Well-Known Member

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    Exactly -- 100% agree.
     
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