Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[CanManEh]

Question- After doing some reading over at ACR they talk about a man named Wolf last name or first im not sure which it is but they call his actions as suspicious and those actions they say are he leaves at early AM then comes home at 530 am runs straight in to the shower ..Who is this guy and do any of you find him in your theries of what may of happend to JBR ..

 

[midwest mama]

all lawyers are not criminal lawyers, so while they may be aware of the existance of the statute - do they really have a valid opinion as to the eventual disposition of the situation? For example: If the law keeps the minor from being charged, will social services become involved and if so to what extent? To what degree are records kept? How many people in the system will have access to this info? And what is the real world likelyhood that it will leak?
The sad fact is that there are factors beyond the actual letter and spirit of the law that sometimes influence outcomes. JR is a smart and connected guy who would understand this better than most. He might be able to wake someone who passed the bar and get their opinion - but would he bet his son's future on it? Apparently not.

If JR and Patsy took over after JB was bashed by Burke, they did so to keep their world intact AS THEY HAD CONSTRUCTED IT, which would have included a young Mr. Ramsey never being known as an injurious, incestuous juvenile offender. Neither Patsy nor John could have lived with the stigma that then would have tagged them, or any of their children, as anything but a "good, loving Christian family"; socially and financially responsible and acceptable.

JB's loss of life, as presented, afforded them an entrance into a position as hapless victims, which also kept them in an echelon of social standing that was in accordance with the standard they wanted to continue to portray of themselves.

I do not think JR would have called an attorney or physician that night, wondering if the thing to do would have been to call for help. He would not have risked having anyone glean the slightest knowledge that any of them was any less than the perfection they were working so diligently to exhibit. And, I think he felt entitled to make any decisions that might need to be made as to his family's response to JB's death. The only option for JR to have his daughter be eventually found sexually assaulted and dead would have been for her to be victimized by a heinous, non-family member. :moo:

 

[BOESP]

My two cents: I doubt JonBenet and Burke were awake and up together in the basement or elsewhere in the house between midnight and 2:00 AM, which is the time Melody Stanton believed she may have heard a child scream. A six-year-old and nearly ten-year-old child, facing an early morning trip after a longggg Christmas day and attending a party and delivering gifts until 9:30 or so would likely be in bed asleep between midnight and 2:00 AM.

My vote goes to Patsy, who said it was customary to get JonBenet out of bed for a midnight potty run to prevent JonBenet from soiling the bed.

I'm still on the fence about whether JonBenet suffered sexual abuse for gratification or for corporal cleansing purposes. Either way, I still see Patsy as the best suspect for causing JonBenet's death.

The Grand Jury thought both parents guilty of child abuse resulting in death, whatever that meant.

 

[CanManEh]

midwest mama.

Quote - JB's loss of life, as presented, afforded them an entrance into a position as hapless victims, which also kept them in an echelon of social standing that was in accordance with the standard they wanted to continue to portray of themselves.

What are u talking about..they were broke by having to continue this lie .paying for all the lawyers even his ex wife and kids plus thier morgage not just his but the ex;s so i don't buy that at all if anything by doing what they did cost them thier way of living ..

 

[BOESP]

Question- After doing some reading over at ACR they talk about a man named Wolf last name or first im not sure which it is but they call his actions as suspicious and those actions they say are he leaves at early AM then comes home at 530 am runs straight in to the shower ..Who is this guy and do any of you find him in your theries of what may of happend to JBR ..

Chris Wolf was a red herring. There is no evidence that ties him to JonBenet's death. A lot of single men stay out all night; at least they do where I live and most men I know take morning showers.

 

[midwest mama]

Question- After doing some reading over at ACR they talk about a man named Wolf last name or first im not sure which it is but they call his actions as suspicious and those actions they say are he leaves at early AM then comes home at 530 am runs straight in to the shower ..Who is this guy and do any of you find him in your theries of what may of happend to JBR ..

Here's a webpage that will give most of the info about Wolf:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682476/Foreign Political Faction

Most interesting is that he could not be eliminated as writer of the ransom note.

 

[wengr]

What are u talking about..they were broke by having to continue this lie .paying for all the lawyers even his ex wife and kids plus thier morgage not just his but the ex;s so i don't buy that at all if anything by doing what they did cost them thier way of living ..

With the benefit of hindsight, to some degree what you say is true.
But at the time in the heat of the moment the stager had a plan. They felt it would work, or they would not have been doing it. And in the end to some degree it did work.

 

[wengr]

I do not think JR would have called an attorney or physician that night, wondering if the thing to do would have been to call for help. He would not have risked having anyone glean the slightest knowledge that any of them was any less than the perfection they were working so diligently to exhibit. And, I think he felt entitled to make any decisions that might need to be made as to his family's response to JB's death. The only option for JR to have his daughter be eventually found sexually assaulted and dead would have been for her to be victimized by a heinous, non-family member. :moo:

Well said, and mirrors my own opinion.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

midwest mama.

Quote - JB's loss of life, as presented, afforded them an entrance into a position as hapless victims, which also kept them in an echelon of social standing that was in accordance with the standard they wanted to continue to portray of themselves.

What are u talking about..they were broke by having to continue this lie .paying for all the lawyers even his ex wife and kids plus thier morgage not just his but the ex;s so i don't buy that at all if anything by doing what they did cost them thier way of living ..

The R's aren't broke though, and never have been. They sent Burke to a private school from 5th-11th grade which costs about $20k a year. They've own two airplanes since before JBR's death; They would have sold them if they needed the money. They have always owned at least two houses, even to this day. John and Burke went to Hawaii for Christmas '09...Very expensive to travel there at that time of the year. Not to mention, they have definitely pocketed a lot of $$$ from their book and media appearances in the past 18 years. They have managed to continue living a comfortable lifestyle since 1997 despite all the money they paid to their team, and neither parent holding an actual job since then. I'm sure they had a lifestyle adjustment after the murder though.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama.

Quote - JB's loss of life, as presented, afforded them an entrance into a position as hapless victims, which also kept them in an echelon of social standing that was in accordance with the standard they wanted to continue to portray of themselves.

What are u talking about..they were broke by having to continue this lie .paying for all the lawyers even his ex wife and kids plus thier morgage not just his but the ex;s so i don't buy that at all if anything by doing what they did cost them thier way of living ..

Yes, monetarily they took a hit...., but not more than they could afford by most standards. And then, there were those books and personal appearances which undoubtedly helped with the financial burden.

Burke was sent to private school, afforded a respectable college education, and John now also has managed to scrape together enough to provide a lovely home for the new Mrs. Ramsey who had filed bankruptcy prior to meeting JR, and was, reportedly $230,000 in debt when she married him.
All rumors, we know, but Mr. Ramsey still manages to afford flying adventures by private plane as well.

Yes, the Ramsey family might be less wealthy than they once were, and most likely less wealthy than they might have been if JonBenet had not been murdered, but their lifestyle shows they still have enough financial comfort according to what is publicly known.

And most of all, Patsy went to her grave an uncharged, innocent perpetrator, Burke manages to remain free of any connected guilt, and John is also able to claim his complete innocence and devastation which gives him the benefit of doubt in the public eye. Our legal system has provided this justifiable outcome for him, based upon the way the case has turned out thus far. That is the "social standing" that has continued to be portrayed as the Ramsey family probably desires.

I have no empathy for the financial position of the Ramsey's or for any dismay that they may feel due to public opinion. If I thought they had spent every dime they could, every moment they had, trying to find JB's "killer" and/or being attached to the hips of LE authorities until they produced viable leads, I might feel differently. Combine that with the lack of intruder evidence, and the family evidence gathered from the crime scene, and I can only believe at this point, the Ramsey family is positioned exactly where they wanted themselves to be - free of prosecution and any ensuing consequences. :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

My two cents: I doubt JonBenet and Burke were awake and up together in the basement or elsewhere in the house between midnight and 2:00 AM, which is the time Melody Stanton believed she may have heard a child scream. A six-year-old and nearly ten-year-old child, facing an early morning trip after a longggg Christmas day and attending a party and delivering gifts until 9:30 or so would likely be in bed asleep between midnight and 2:00 AM.

My vote goes to Patsy, who said it was customary to get JonBenet out of bed for a midnight potty run to prevent JonBenet from soiling the bed.

I'm still on the fence about whether JonBenet suffered sexual abuse for gratification or for corporal cleansing purposes. Either way, I still see Patsy as the best suspect for causing JonBenet's death.

The Grand Jury thought both parents guilty of child abuse resulting in death, whatever that meant.

In most circumstances, that should be the case. And if we believe what JR and Patsy said about putting JB down, and then Burke, that should be the case.

But Burke stated that JB was awake and walked into the house. Kids can re-energize after a catnap, so that might have been the case if she was snoozing for a while in the car. Then, there's the tea and pineapple. We suppose that JB had eaten it after returning home, which then might ask us to assume Burke drank his tea then also. If it was plain tea, which contains more caffeine than coffee, he could have had an extra boost too.

Both kids were hyped not only from Christmas day, but JB was expecting another visit from Santa, after Christmas, so would it have been a stretch to think that Burke, jittered up on caffeine, might have coaxed JB into a gift search if Mom and Dad were not within eyesight?

Of course, you are in plenty of company in suspecting Patsy, and unless we ever hear any testimony from an arrested, charged and tried suspect to lead us to think otherwise, she will always remain "under the umbrella of suspicion."

My money says the Grand Jury got it right - both John and Patsy had accountability for the death of JB.

 

[questfortrue]

The theory suspected --Burke started it with a sexual rage attack, JR and Patsy found it out (the scream could have alerted them) then collaborated on preparing the note, with John to take care of the final staging methods, and ultimately the ligature strangulation -- can very well provide for many aspects of the case being explained. :moo:

JB's attack might have even occurred while Patsy was finishing the final trip preparations, and JR had retired to their bedroom quarters, just barely getting settled in. Perhaps Patsy had helped set the kids up with a quick snack, with promises they would then get quickly off to bed. But, getting busy with tasks, or maybe even stopping to rest a bit and falling asleep, the scream alerted her possibly from the second floor while still dressed from the party. She would have headed immediately towards the lower levels, and John would have also either jumped up immediately, tossing his shirt back on as he headed downstairs, or responded to Patsy's cries for help.

This scenario, in my mind's eye, allows for Patsy's fibers to be transferred to JB as she might have tried to revive her (shaking) or cradled her, or tried to attend to her if John then carried her and placed her near the paint tray, as a spot to prepare her for the intruder kidnapping/murder they would have contrived. If Patsy then left the scene out of anguish and terror, thinking JB dead from Burke's attack, and depended upon John to finish the details, she would not have realized John discovered JB was still alive and would have strangled her intentionally.

Of course, JR would never have disclosed this fact to Patsy, thinking she would forever assume it was Burke's attack that killed JB. He was off the hook, with Patsy forever devoted to protecting Burke from being taken from them due to his mental/emotional disorder(s) causing JB's death.

Total collusion all around, with Burke's behaviors being probably medically responsible, Patsy's out of sheer desperation for protection of Burke, and John's being to save Burke for Patsy's sake (and his), but ultimately to save himself from being charged with JB's murder. It all fits - sickeningly, sadly, and horribly so.

And unless JR faces charges for the ligature strangulation, the case will stay open forever - cold as ice and the blood that must run in JR's veins.

MM, you’ve reiterated one of the scenarios I had imagined, though I’m not totally BDI. My antenna regarding the role of JR in the staging was triggered by a sentence in the RN, which I felt could have been a double entendre: “It is up to you now John!.” Further conjecture: JR might have been the one who insisted they could not call 911 and the ramifications of a 911 call; he was the cool thinker of the 2. JR couldn’t take a chance that he might be implicated in an investigation of molestation. Some here think the molestation of JB was inter-generational.

OTOH, if BR didn’t do it, and PR has passed away, why wouldn’t BR speak? There’s nothing to gain, at least on the surface of it, if he has a nice comfortable lifestyle and no conscience about his sister’s death. Because if he spoke it would reveal his parents’ involvement and/or his own culpability and the denouement of the IDI theory. MOO..

It’s interesting that BR and JR have taken 2 different roads: JR goes about speaking to any media friendly to him and writing books. BR opts for anonymity while JR opts for public vindication. Hiding family shame. Shamelessly. Again, all MHO.

 

[wengr]

It’s interesting that BR and JR have taken 2 different roads: JR goes about speaking to any media friendly to him and writing books. BR opts for anonymity while JR opts for public vindication. Hiding family shame. Shamelessly. Again, all MHO.

Interesting to say the least. It reminds me of the way a sleight of hand artist makes exaggerated motions with one hand in order to keep your eye off of the other.

 

[questfortrue]

Midwest Mama had this thought: “This scenario, in my mind's eye, allows for Patsy's fibers to be transferred to JB as she might have tried to revive her (shaking) or cradled her, or tried to attend to her if John then carried her and placed her near the paint tray, as a spot to prepare her for the intruder kidnapping/murder they would have contrived."

I’ve also wondered about the 2 different sets of fibres in the cord and in the panties. There indeed could be 2 people in the basement staging, but I just had another idea based on witnessing a husband and wife working on a home repair project. The husband commandeered the repair by calling out to his wife to get him this or that tool. Could it be that JR may have called out to PR to get him a piece of some cord, a knife, some duct tape and a paint brush. Heck, PR could hold the cord against her jacket, under her arm, while she fetched the duct tape and a knife to cut the cord. A direct transfer from her coat would have occurred. moo

 

[UKGuy]

Midwest Mama had this thought: “This scenario, in my mind's eye, allows for Patsy's fibers to be transferred to JB as she might have tried to revive her (shaking) or cradled her, or tried to attend to her if John then carried her and placed her near the paint tray, as a spot to prepare her for the intruder kidnapping/murder they would have contrived."

I’ve also wondered about the 2 different sets of fibres in the cord and in the panties. There indeed could be 2 people in the basement staging, but I just had another idea based on witnessing a husband and wife working on a home repair project. The husband commandeered the repair by calling out to his wife to get him this or that tool. Could it be that JR may have called out to PR to get him a piece of some cord, a knife, some duct tape and a paint brush. Heck, PR could hold the cord against her jacket, under her arm, while she fetched the duct tape and a knife to cut the cord. A direct transfer from her coat would have occurred. moo

questfortrue,
What the forensic evidence suggests is that all three Ramseys played a role in the death of JonBenet.

Patsy's fibers were embedded into the knotting on the ligature, hardly secondary transfer, and they were found in the paint-tote, i.e. Patsy placed the broken piece back or took the unbroken paintbrush out, or both? You decide.

Fibers from JR's shirt were found on JonBenet. BR's touch dna was found on the bloodstained Barbie Nightgown dumped in the wine-cellar.

In forensic terms its an open and shut case: its RDI, the open question is did Patsy asphyxiate JonBenet, technically making her JonBenet's killer?


.

 

[Chrishope]

questfortrue,
What the forensic evidence suggests is that all three Ramseys played a role in the death of JonBenet.

Patsy's fibers were embedded into the knotting on the ligature, hardly secondary transfer, and they were found in the paint-tote, i.e. Patsy placed the broken piece back or took the unbroken paintbrush out, or both? You decide.

Fibers from JR's shirt were found on JonBenet. BR's touch dna was found on the bloodstained Barbie Nightgown dumped in the wine-cellar.

In forensic terms its an open and shut case: its RDI, the open question is did Patsy asphyxiate JonBenet, technically making her JonBenet's killer?


.

By what magical thought process do you decide that fibers "intertwined" in the rope could not be from secondary transfer?

If fibers were present when knots were tied, they get "intertwined". The fibers could be on the killer and/or the victim from 2ndary transfer. People would do themselves a favor not to get so caught up with the "intertwined" non-sense. It just means the fibers were on the rope as the knots were tied.

Fibers in the paint tote are equally meaningless. The killer could have transferred fibers to the tray.

If you want to try to make something of red fibers, then you also have to account for the brown fibers, which are not from any Ramsey clothing. Primary? Secondary? Why do brown fibers transfer secondarily but not red ones?

You either have to accept secondary transfer of the red fibers as a real possibility, or you have to accept multiple co-conspirators, some of whom left the premises and were covered for all these years.

 

[Chrishope]

Some posters have decided -illogically- that there is something significant about the location of the red fibers. The location is thought to rule out secondary fiber transfer.
(You'll have to ask those posters to explain the "logic" behind such conclusions)

There are brown fibers on the duct tape, in the paint tote, on the paint brush handle, and in the ligature. These brown fibers cannot be (or at least have not been, as far as we know) sourced.

It would seem that if the location is significant with respect to the red fibers, it must be of equal significance with respect to the brown. That is, if the red fibers are thought to be present due to primary transfer, from PR, then the same "logic" must apply to the brown fibers found in the same locations. They must have been transferred, by primary method, from someone wearing brown.

Of course there is no "logic" involved, as the fibers, red or brown, could easily have been there due to secondary transfer.

Proponents of the "significant location" theory, with respect to red fibers, have painted themselves into a corner. If they want to place PR in the basement the night of the murder, due to red fibers, then they must also accept the presence of a co-conspirator wearing brown. A co-conspirator who is unknown to anyone but the Rs, and has been protected by the Rs.

OTOH, if theorists would like to dismiss the mystery co-conspirator by saying the brown fibers are there from secondary transfer, then they must admit this could be the case for the red fibers as well.

They can't have it both ways. The red fibers can't be "significant" due to their location while the brown unsourced fibers, in the same locations, are insignificant. If the red fibers could not have been left by secondary transfer then it's difficult to see how the brown fibers could. If one wants to draw conclusions from the red fibers, one must draw the same conclusions from the brown fibers.

The most sensible thing of course is to admit that the red fibers could be in those locations due to secondary transfer. e.g., the fiber evidence is inconclusive. This would apply equally to the brown fibers.


I quote, yet again, from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation -

NOTE: The more matching fiber types that exist in a case, the stronger the evidence of association. Remember that fiber matches between two individuals who share the same environment (e.g. live together or drive the same car) are essentially meaningless.

http://dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/trace-evidence

 

[Darlene733510]

I'm not sure, but wasn't there a pair of brown work gloves taken as evidence? I can't remember, but they are usually cotton, and quite thick. Or were the gloves taken as evidence black? If they were brown, could those gloves have been worn by the person who broke the handle of the paintbrush, so they wouldn't get any splinters in their hands?

 

[UKGuy]

By what magical thought process do you decide that fibers "intertwined" in the rope could not be from secondary transfer?

If fibers were present when knots were tied, they get "intertwined". The fibers could be on the killer and/or the victim from 2ndary transfer. People would do themselves a favor not to get so caught up with the "intertwined" non-sense. It just means the fibers were on the rope as the knots were tied.

Fibers in the paint tote are equally meaningless. The killer could have transferred fibers to the tray.

If you want to try to make something of red fibers, then you also have to account for the brown fibers, which are not from any Ramsey clothing. Primary? Secondary? Why do brown fibers transfer secondarily but not red ones?

You either have to accept secondary transfer of the red fibers as a real possibility, or you have to accept multiple co-conspirators, some of whom left the premises and were covered for all these years.

Chrishope,

By what magical thought process do you decide that fibers "intertwined" in the rope could not be from secondary transfer?

Well fortunately my surname is not Newton, so magical assumptions are not part of my cranial furniture.

I arrived at my conclusion using the same method as yourself. As per usual in this debate you neglect the either/or perspective.

That is the fibers can arrive both as secondary and primary transfer. Your preference for a particular route simply underlines your cognitive bias. Which for the more knowlegable sleuthers will bring your promotion of a particular theory into question.

Your assertions regarding the fibers, regardless of color, are without foundation.

You either have to accept secondary transfer of the red fibers as a real possibility, or you have to accept multiple co-conspirators, some of whom left the premises and were covered for all these years.

Really, why? Elementary school reasoning suggests there was more than one potential route of transfer, i.e. multiple.



.

.

 

[midwest mama]

Again, both Chrishope and UKGuy have arrived at a conclusion that says the same thing: fibers found in the JB murder investigation can be accounted for in multiple ways. Without an account from either a witness to the crime, or a confession by the killer, we will probably never know exactly how the fibers got into the scene of the crime.

And I do agree, Chrishope, that the as yet unsourced (as far as public knowledge goes) brown fibers, must be considered equally for leads as to the killer(s) of JB. Since there were other items not recovered from the crime scene (additional cord, tape, more fresh size 12's in a package), which could have been disposed of by the killer, we might also be able to suspect that the source for the brown fibers could also have been in a disposal process?