Who molested/abused Jonbenet? #2

[proust20]

There are the suitcase, the trash bags for trip to MI, the packed cases for the cruise, and JR previously put things aboard the plane (gifts?). I still don't understand the brief trip to Charlevoix. Also, where was the comforter kept?

FW said that he removed a glass shard from the top of the Samsonite. But was that before or after he moved the suitcase? It is its position in the CS photo that allowed LS to invent his IDI. But should the original location have allowed this theory if it were farther from the window? Curiously, in this rat's nest of a house, the broken glass had mostly been swept from the floor (by PR?), without taking care to fix the broken window.

JR's tale of breaking through the window one night while the family was in MI is hard to believe. PR was not there when it took place. But why make it up? Then again, why not tell BPD about the window earlier? An aspect which is not usually discussed is when the Rs thought that it was the best time for the body to be discovered. Was it always meant to be JR?

The RN already offers a red herring with the 118k. This was meant to implicate a business associate. "We do respect your business" Such a particular sum would be known to few. PR 'finding' the RN on the spiral staircase was a way of pointing to LHP. The R's forensic smarts had them invite people over on the 26th. PR knew enough to wear the same clothes. JR didn't get to the top without being able to think and react strategically.

 

[UKGuy]

There are the suitcase, the trash bags for trip to MI, the packed cases for the cruise, and JR previously put things aboard the plane (gifts?). I still don't understand the brief trip to Charlevoix. Also, where was the comforter kept?

FW said that he removed a glass shard from the top of the Samsonite. But was that before or after he moved the suitcase? It is its position in the CS photo that allowed LS to invent his IDI. But should the original location have allowed this theory if it were farther from the window? Curiously, in this rat's nest of a house, the broken glass had mostly been swept from the floor (by PR?), without taking care to fix the broken window.

JR's tale of breaking through the window one night while the family was in MI is hard to believe. PR was not there when it took place. But why make it up? Then again, why not tell BPD about the window earlier? An aspect which is not usually discussed is when the Rs thought that it was the best time for the body to be discovered. Was it always meant to be JR?

The RN already offers a red herring with the 118k. This was meant to implicate a business associate. "We do respect your business" Such a particular sum would be known to few. PR 'finding' the RN on the spiral staircase was a way of pointing to LHP. The R's forensic smarts had them invite people over on the 26th. PR knew enough to wear the same clothes. JR didn't get to the top without being able to think and react strategically.

proust20,

FW said that he removed a glass shard from the top of the Samsonite. But was that before or after he moved the suitcase? It is its position in the CS photo that allowed LS to invent his IDI. But should the original location have allowed this theory if it were farther from the window? Curiously, in this rat's nest of a house, the broken glass had mostly been swept from the floor (by PR?), without taking care to fix the broken window.

From Lou Smit's Presentation Crime Scene Photo Train Room Window

04-14-2000 Larry King Live with former Detective Steve Thomas

Larry King: "What about the suitcase under the bedroom window?"

Steve Thomas: "Well, I think that's easily explained -- under the basement window."

Larry King: "Basement window."

Steve Thomas: "One, a witness in the house that day moved the suitcase, but I don't think these crime scene photos that some are relying upon are necessarily indicative of what a true pristine crime scene was that day."

Larry King: "Meaning?"

Steve Thomas: "Meaning, the suitcase was moved at one point during the day before that photograph was taken."

Glass shard on the outside sill

Because FW's shard is on the inside as JR closed the window.

LHP says Patsy never asked her to sweep up any broken glass and she never observed any.

JR's story about the broken window is fake. It's all fabricated to hide a prior staging, which some think was undertaken by BR?

 

[UKGuy]

FW said that he removed a glass shard from the top of the Samsonite. But was that before or after he moved the suitcase? It is its position in the CS photo that allowed LS to invent his IDI. But should the original location have allowed this theory if it were farther from the window? Curiously, in this rat's nest of a house, the broken glass had mostly been swept from the floor (by PR?), without taking care to fix the broken window.

proust20,

TT: When did John break that window in the basement?
PR: He, I don’t know exactly when he did it, but I think it was last summer sometime when we, the kids and I were at the lake.
TT: In Charlevoix.
PR: In Charlevoix and he told me to come back from out of town or whatever and he didn’t have a key and the only way he could get in was to break the window.
TT: Okay.
PR: The little um, like door, little window to the basement there.
TT: He had to life the grate out of the way to, to get in there.
PR: Yeah, that’s the one, um hum.
TT: Okay. Any reason why that one wasn’t replaced or the pane wasn’t fixed or anything?
PR: No, I don’t know whether I fixed it or didn’t fix it. I can’t remember even trying to remember that, um, I remember when I got back, uh, in the fall, you know . . .
TT: Um hum.
PR: . . .uh, went down there and cleaned up all the glass.
TT: Okay.
PR: I mean I cleaned that thoroughly and I asked Linda to go behind me and vacuum. I mean I picked up every chunk, I mean, because the kids played down there in that back area back there.
TT: Um hum.
PR: And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things and uh, there was just a ton of glass everywhere.
TT: Okay.
PR: And I cleaned all that up and then she, she vacuumed a couple of times down there.
TT: To get all the glass.
PR: In the fall yeah cause it was just little, you know, pieces, big pieces, everything.
TT: Do you ever recall getting that window replaced?
PR: Yeah, uh, I can’t remember. I just can’t remember whether I got it replaced or not.

LHP says Patsy never asked her to clean up any glass!!

.

 

[UKGuy]

July 21, 1998 Linda Wilcox (former Ramsey housekeeper) interview on Peter Boyles Show

Peter Boyles: So much talk about the so-called "secret room," the little room, the room that hardly anyone knew. Linda Hoffman-Pugh, who replaced you, once said that she didn't know the room was there. What about the room where the little girl's body was found?

Linda Wilcox: It's a wine cellar, that's what it was built as. It has no windows, I mean, it was a wine cellar. The last time I was in that room, there was nothing in it, it was bare. It wasn't used for storage, it wasn't used for anything. It was very damp, anything you put in there got kinda moldy, nothing was in that room. It wasn't necessarily hidden but it wasn't in plain view. And the room leading to it was the boiler room. It was kind of open but it was very dark. No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there. In fact, I'm the one who discovered the safe. Patsy didn't know it was there. One day, it was Suzanne, myself, Nedra and Patsy."

Peter Boyles: "Suzanne was the nanny?"

Linda Wilcox: Yes, and the kids were in one of the other rooms playing. There had been a refrigerator down there. We were cleaning it out and doing things and I was, the floor leading to that room is linoleum and I was cleaning it by hand and I was backing myself out of the room so I wouldn't track over what I had cleaned. And I was backing myself into the wine cellar, the vacuum was behind me as I backed into the wine cellar. When I saw the safe on the floor and I go, hey did you know that there was a safe in here? It was covered with chips and paint and it hadn't been touched in a long time and I actually cleaned it off. And Patsy goes, 'Nah, I didn't know, John probably knows. Maybe he should, you know, drill it out sometime." As far as I know it was never used, there was never anything in it. There was no sign that it had been touched in years when I found it.

So at one point prior to Christmas the wine-cellar was unused. Contrary to both Patsy and John's account?

 

[proust20]

The entire story line dreamt up by the Rs relies upon the movies. JR's tale of the broken window is a sit-com with Daddy having all sorts of wacky problems maintaining the household while the Missus is away. There's an infantile aspect with JR stripping down to break in. It's not surprising that Lockheed Martin readily found him to be a corporate liability. With all their resources, Lockheed must have conducted their own investigation.

Tellingly, the Rs denied the autopsy findings about chronic SA. Not to do so would involve them in the felonies. They could have called on Dr. Beuf to confirm their assertions; but, they decided against this. In addition, the Rs contest the certainty of when and if JB ate pineapple. This is necessary in order to affirm their fantasy timeline. Although her fingerprints are actually on some evidence, the bowl, this time, PR pointed to the too large spoon which the perfect hostess would never serve. It is likely that BR got the spoon; and, he could have made the same error in selecting too large an appropriate size with the Bloomies?

One idiocy of the theory of LS has the intruder(s) relying on an improvised way of going back out the broken window. Firstly, the intruder(s) would be assuming that the escape from the house would be made with JB in tow, and this would entail a particular plan and not an ad hoc solution. But, what if the suitcase weren't there to assist in fleeing an unforeseen murder? What then? Wouldn't the light have to be turned on to find the suitcase or something else suitable to climb up to the window? As Linda Wilcox pointed out, the WC has no windows. All in all, the basement does seem to have been BR's domain.

 

[UKGuy]

The entire story line dreamt up by the Rs relies upon the movies. JR's tale of the broken window is a sit-com with Daddy having all sorts of wacky problems maintaining the household while the Missus is away. There's an infantile aspect with JR stripping down to break in. It's not surprising that Lockheed Martin readily found him to be a corporate liability. With all their resources, Lockheed must have conducted their own investigation.

Tellingly, the Rs denied the autopsy findings about chronic SA. Not to do so would involve them in the felonies. They could have called on Dr. Beuf to confirm their assertions; but, they decided against this. In addition, the Rs contest the certainty of when and if JB ate pineapple. This is necessary in order to affirm their fantasy timeline. Although her fingerprints are actually on some evidence, the bowl, this time, PR pointed to the too large spoon which the perfect hostess would never serve. It is likely that BR got the spoon; and, he could have made the same error in selecting too large an appropriate size with the Bloomies?

One idiocy of the theory of LS has the intruder(s) relying on an improvised way of going back out the broken window. Firstly, the intruder(s) would be assuming that the escape from the house would be made with JB in tow, and this would entail a particular plan and not an ad hoc solution. But, what if the suitcase weren't there to assist in fleeing an unforeseen murder? What then? Wouldn't the light have to be turned on to find the suitcase or something else suitable to climb up to the window? As Linda Wilcox pointed out, the WC has no windows. All in all, the basement does seem to have been BR's domain.

proust20,
Makes you wonder what the deal was between LS and JR after they knelt and prayed?

I agree with you, i.e. how would any intruder know there was a viable exit from the basement?

I reckon BR staged a fake crime-scene down in the basement which JR and PR dismantled and had to concoct fake accounts for all the unexplained forensic evidence, broken window, suitcase, blocking chair, glass, etc.

Which also explains why BR and DS were debating whether JonBenet had been manually strangled?

No smoking gun but enough for me to think the case is BDI.

One question to Fleet White would seal the deal for me, as he was present, even making Burke's bed for him. Just consider what FW observed?

.

 

[proust20]

BDI explains much. How does this theory fit the time line? JB died about 1 AM. That is the time she was asphyxiated. However, that puts the time of the head blow close to midnight. (Assuming the blow came first.) So, the head blow occurred near the time that JB ate the pineapple. This leads back to the pineapple snatching motive, with which I have difficulty. While this moment of impulsive rage is possible as a motive, it doesn't account for the garotte.

If BR did bash JB around midnight, he had an hour before the strangling. Would a 9 year old be able to stay cool and collected that long? JB was not dragged about. Could he carry her downstairs? If not, then BR took JB downstairs before the head blow? Although, that would distance the supposed pineapple snatch. Certainly, BR would have time to stage; but, at some point the parents became aware. Did he alert them or they found out by themselves? In either case, the Rs could only have known after 1 AM, which is the time of death.

But much of this changes radically if one or both parents were not asleep. There's always PR wearing the same outfit. If it is BDI and the Rs hadn't in fact retired, it should seem they'd have known quickly what had happened and taken control of the staging? This returns to the riddle of whether or not the strangulation was part of the staging.

 

[mickey2942]

BDI explains much. How does this theory fit the time line? JB died about 1 AM. That is the time she was asphyxiated. However, that puts the time of the head blow close to midnight. (Assuming the blow came first.) So, the head blow occurred near the time that JB ate the pineapple. This leads back to the pineapple snatching motive, with which I have difficulty. While this moment of impulsive rage is possible as a motive, it doesn't account for the garotte.

If BR did bash JB around midnight, he had an hour before the strangling. Would a 9 year old be able to stay cool and collected that long? JB was not dragged about. Could he carry her downstairs? If not, then BR took JB downstairs before the head blow? Certainly, BR would have time to stage; but, at some point the parents became aware. Did he alert them or they found out by themselves? In either case, the Rs could only have known after 1 AM, which is the time of death.

But much of this changes radically if one or both parents were not asleep. There's always PR wearing the same outfit. If it is BDI and the Rs hadn't in fact retired, it should seem they'd have known quickly what had happened and taken control of the staging? This returns to the riddle of whether or not the strangulation was part of the staging.

The elaborate stories, the minute I saw Patty on Larry King, I knew she was lying. She had an answer for everything. People telling the truth, often don't remember every detail. Patty had a story and answer for everything. She never said, "I don't know.", or "I don't remember.". She had a fake smile on her face. It was like watching an elaborate skit.

I don't know what happened to JBR, or who killed her, but I do know that Patty knew exactly what happened.

 

[UKGuy]

BDI explains much. How does this theory fit the time line? JB died about 1 AM. That is the time she was asphyxiated. However, that puts the time of the head blow close to midnight. (Assuming the blow came first.) So, the head blow occurred near the time that JB ate the pineapple. This leads back to the pineapple snatching motive, with which I have difficulty. While this moment of impulsive rage is possible as a motive, it doesn't account for the garotte.

If BR did bash JB around midnight, he had an hour before the strangling. Would a 9 year old be able to stay cool and collected that long? JB was not dragged about. Could he carry her downstairs? If not, then BR took JB downstairs before the head blow? Although, that would distance the supposed pineapple snatch. Certainly, BR would have time to stage; but, at some point the parents became aware. Did he alert them or they found out by themselves? In either case, the Rs could only have known after 1 AM, which is the time of death.

But much of this changes radically if one or both parents were not asleep. There's always PR wearing the same outfit. If it is BDI and the Rs hadn't in fact retired, it should seem they'd have known quickly what had happened and taken control of the staging? This returns to the riddle of whether or not the strangulation was part of the staging.

proust20,
Your account is as good as anyone elses, as only the Ramsey's know what happened that Christmas.

So the exact timeline is open for debate, then there is the precise sequence of events, e.g.
1. Sexual Assault (SA),
2. Head Blow (HB),
3. Ligature Aspyxiation (LA)

or
1. Manual Strangulation (MS)
2. Head Blow (HB)
3. Staged Sex Assault (SSA)
4. Ligature Aspyxiation (LA)


So you have similar events taking place with just the particular sequence differing and offering another motive, i.e. Sexual or Anger?

Leaving the details for another occassion, looks to me as if BR did some initial staging in the basement, then Patsy and/or John revised BR's fake crime-scene with one of their own, which could have then been altered to fit with a kidnapping scenario?

The exact time of JonBenet's death is unknown, but I assume she was dead by 2am? So the Ramsey's had four hours to tweak their fake crime-scene.

Give how amateur the staging is with all the mistakes I doubt either of the parents were initially responsible.

Although you could make a case for PDI, you have to ask why all the mistakes, why implicate Burke?

IMO the Ligature Asphyxiation was intended as staging because JonBenet was likely in a coma, but breathing, with no obvious sign of injury, despite being whacked on the head, which might have been intended staging itself, but failed?

So if you remove the LA this leaves the SA and HB as unexplained, alternatively you might just have HB followed by a fake SA?

Then the question is why a fake SA, just get JonBenet to hospital ASAP?

so SA followed by a HB appears more likely?

I prefer SA then MS with the HB being attempted staging.

Alternatively if Patsy whacked JonBenet in anger with the rest being staging why does she not get JonBenet medical attention why double down with further injuries?

Has to be the sexual assault, turning up at any hospital, with JonBenet presenting internal injuries means all three Ramsey's being arrested on the spot?

So we can establish a SA and from the amateur staging infer BR was responsible?

Everything else is staging and smoke and mirrors by the parents?

.

 

[proust20]

The precise sequence of violent events remains an enduring puzzle. The Rs were forced to improvise a scenario of a kidnapping gone wrong. There had to be a reason why the kidnapper killed JB and left her in the WC. IMO this is why the SSA. Supposedly, the kidnapper could not control their urges and dispatched JB in the remotest (safest) area of the house. Also, there could have been a naive assumption that the previous SA could be disguised with a fresh assault. If JB were hovering between life and death, taking her to the hospital would only disclose what JB had experienced.

SSA with actual SA is not coincidental. JB had already been the victim of numerous crimes on the 25th. The previous crimes flow into the murder. The staging may be crude; but. it indicates a sustained effort. BR doesn't seem capable of carrying this project out by himself. The fashioning of the ligature was methodical. Would an enraged 9 year old take such step?

In this macabre multiple choice, I'd opt for SSA, LA, and HB as the final step.

 

[UKGuy]

The precise sequence of violent events remains an enduring puzzle. The Rs were forced to improvise a scenario of a kidnapping gone wrong. There had to be a reason why the kidnapper killed JB and left her in the WC. IMO this is why the SSA. Supposedly, the kidnapper could not control their urges and dispatched JB in the remotest (safest) area of the house. Also, there could have been a naive assumption that the previous SA could be disguised with a fresh assault. If JB were hovering between life and death, taking her to the hospital would only disclose what JB had experienced.

SSA with actual SA is not coincidental. JB had already been the victim of numerous crimes on the 25th. The previous crimes flow into the murder. The staging may be crude; but. it indicates a sustained effort. BR doesn't seem capable of carrying this project out by himself. The fashioning of the ligature was methodical. Would an enraged 9 year old take such step?

In this macabre multiple choice, I'd opt for SSA, LA, and HB as the final step.

proust20,

The exact sequence of violent events remains an enduring puzzle. The Rs were forced to improvise a scenario of a kidnapping gone wrong. There had to be a reason why the kidnapper killed JB and left her in the WC. IMO this is why the SSA. Supposedly, the kidnapper could not control their urges and dispatched JB in the remotest (safest) area of the house.

The SSA says nothing about the kidnapper's motive, particularly if we know its staged.

BR doesn't seem capable of carrying this project out by himself.

I'm assuming BR redresses JonBenet, e.g. his long johns and the size-12's and moves JonBenet down to the basement. he was mature enough to carry/slide her down the stairs, consider the bruising and marks on JonBenet's body, so far unexplained, but being dragged about in the basement might offer a reason for the contusions, etc?

The fashioning of the ligature was methodical. Would an enraged 9 year old take such step?

No, Patsy did this her fibers are embedded into the ligature knotting and on the sticky side of the duct-tape placed over JonBenet's mouth.

Not a smoking gun but close enough. So Burke staged JonBenet down in the basement, broke the window, possibly moved the chair beneath the window.

The rest is the parents handywork. Alternatively Burke redressed JonBenet as above in her bedroom, leaving her on her bed or on the floor?

Then he tells Patsy JonBenet has had an accident, unless JonBenet screams bringing Patsy forward, but then Burke would have no room for staging?

If you rule Burke out of staging JonBenet then that leaves PDI or JDI or some combination.

Meaning JR or PR redressed JonBenet in Burke's long johns and Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear, just exactly what was meant by this staging is unclear.

Most folks think the SSA applies to a PDI case with Patsy wanting to deflect attention from herself?

If the case is PDI, this makes you wonder why JR is never done appearing in documentaries?

.

 

[proust20]

JR had a difficult time dealing with Beth's death. The Holidays can evoke many memories. JR repeated the trauma of loosing one daughter by loosing another

 

[UKGuy]

JR had a difficult time dealing with Beth's death. The Holidays can evoke many memories. JR repeated the trauma of loosing one daughter by loosing another

proust20,
Yes, he lost his daughter, his wife, and his life. Nobody wanted to employ him, the Republican Party blackballed him, etc.

JR found out the hard way that money cannot cover up, and buy you anything!

No amount of Machaivellian double dealing can ever bring the past back.

.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I believe the was some doc

I'm completely aware of this. So do you have evidence that proves molestation? Once physical evidence is found, then investigators need to do interviews to find out where it's coming from. They may even discover the damage is coming from the child themselves. There's the douching question, infections, and possible itching. Yes, there's evidence, but

Sigh.

Jonbenet didn't have any fear of adults seeing her private parts. Fleet White reported she'd call for an adult to wipe her bottom when she was sitting on the toilet. If she couldn't get someone to do it (based on all of her underwear being stained), she'd go unclean. I have no answers or assumptions here. If a child was abused, wouldn't she have a fear of having an adult see her like that? I don't know. I have not read about child sexual abuse and have no experience with abused children. This is a question I'd like to post to a child sexual abuse expert.
What I can guess is a girl of her size didn't have direct access to toilet paper in her bathroom. There was no dispenser next to the toilet. [Inconsiderate for the parents to do to a child her size.] That means the toilet paper roll was either on the floor, the bathroom counter, or on the back of the toilet. Being that small, I can't imagine it was an easy reach.
She also allegedly had urinary tract infections supposedly from wiping in the wrong direction. This is only based on what I read reported from her pediatrician. So if Patsy did douche her, it could have been to try to control infections or corporal punishment. Maybe there was a little bit of both. I don't know.
What I do know about Patsy is that she went through stage 4 chemo. Along with that comes chemo brain (a brain fog). It would have also changed how she would view life. She also wanted the appearance of perfection in her appearance, the house she lived in, and her daughter, especially during pageants.
I can't determine if she was sexually abused and neither could the investigators. The questioning they were allowed was limited. They couldn't get too deep into the sexual abuse questions. They were blocked at even the most basic questions. Even the holding of the body for 1 more day after the autopsy was cut short due to Ramsey's rush to burial. Then again, the Boulder investigators didn't call for a sexual abuse expert during the autopsy and that was a mistake.
Was she abused? That can go to motive. It can also have nothing to do with her murder. I have never seen a good answer to the question. That question may never be answered.

I believe there may have been some doctor play between the children. I also would like to see how many UTIs JB had and if she was treated with antibiotics. If she had multiple treatments, one can pretty much assume it was followed by a yeast infection, which would cause severe itching if untreated. I do not think JR was doing anything to JB. If past history is to be believed, he cheated. Who knows, but I'm in agreement that there are a few scenarios. If BR had been playing DR with her, there could have been fear that JR would be accused seeing how people have a hard time looking to Burke.
I think the answers to many of the endless clues are more simple than most make them.