Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

who molested/abused JB?

  • JR

    Votes: 180 27.1%
  • BR

    Votes: 203 30.6%
  • JAR

    Votes: 28 4.2%
  • a close family friend

    Votes: 41 6.2%
  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    Votes: 20 3.0%
  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    Votes: 89 13.4%
  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    Votes: 103 15.5%

  • Total voters
    664
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UKGuy

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With all due respect, it doesn't make a lick of sense that the Ramsey parents were planning on madly fleeing the country and leaving their weird son to tell the cops his mother murdered his sister. Or whatever he was going to say.

They moved BR out of the house to avoid LE. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Alix,
Well if you read DeeDee249's post below you will find that the PR and JR intended flying out of Colorado to Atlanta, now this was no vacation trip, their daughters corpse is lying beneath the Christmas Tree and within 30 minutes of her discovery the parents are leaving town, and you reckon they intend to stay in the USofA, dream on.

So we know the parents intended fleeing interstate, placing BR outside of the house might indicate the R's never intended that he flee with them, simply because he was not involved in the death of JonBenet. And if he was JR is offering a hostage to fortune since he will be unable to control access to BR, should anyone wish to talk to him.


With all due respect, it doesn't make a lick of sense
The object of the exercise is not for me to arrange sentences and facts so that they coincide with your view of the JonBenet case, otherwise the board would be rather dull.

Please take a shower, have nice cup of coffee and pick up a cigar on the way out, thank you.
 

DeeDee249

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Alix,
Well if you read DeeDee249's post below you will find that the PR and JR intended flying out of Colorado to Atlanta, now this was no vacation trip, their daughters corpse is lying beneath the Christmas Tree and within 30 minutes of her discovery the parents are leaving town, and you reckon they intend to stay in the USofA, dream on.

So we know the parents intended fleeing interstate, placing BR outside of the house might indicate the R's never intended that he flee with them, simply because he was not involved in the death of JonBenet. And if he was JR is offering a hostage to fortune since he will be unable to control access to BR, should anyone wish to talk to him.



The object of the exercise is not for me to arrange sentences and facts so that they coincide with your view of the JonBenet case, otherwise the board would be rather dull.

Please take a shower, have nice cup of coffee and pick up a cigar on the way out, thank you.

The Rs attempting to flee to Atlanta is a fact. Their intentions regarding their son is not. Had they been allowed to leave, I have no doubt they would have, taking their son with them. Without charges being filed, they were not fugitives, and were in no more danger in Atlanta than they would be in another country. I think they'd have done just what they eventually did- settle back in Atlanta.
With BR left behind, the Rs would have much less control over who had access to BR. IMO, their leaving him behind would not have been an indication that he had no involvement, but as they never left him behind, it is a moot point.
 

UKGuy

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The Rs attempting to flee to Atlanta is a fact. Their intentions regarding their son is not. Had they been allowed to leave, I have no doubt they would have, taking their son with them. Without charges being filed, they were not fugitives, and were in no more danger in Atlanta than they would be in another country. I think they'd have done just what they eventually did- settle back in Atlanta.
With BR left behind, the Rs would have much less control over who had access to BR. IMO, their leaving him behind would not have been an indication that he had no involvement, but as they never left him behind, it is a moot point.

DeeDee249,
The Rs attempting to flee to Atlanta is a fact. Their intentions regarding their son is not.
I agree entirely.

Had they been allowed to leave, I have no doubt they would have, taking their son with them.
Sure they might have. Yet the seeds of doubt are sown precisely because JR relocated BR.

Without charges being filed, they were not fugitives, and were in no more danger in Atlanta than they would be in another country. I think they'd have done just what they eventually did- settle back in Atlanta.
This is all rhetorical justification. The reason the R's were fleeing interstate was because they were involved in the death of JonBenet. Otherwise they would do what most other parents do, e.g. hang about to assist the police.
If the R's considered themselves innocent they would have checked into a local hotel, or used the flat Don Paugh used etc.

With BR left behind, the Rs would have much less control over who had access to BR. IMO, their leaving him behind would not have been an indication that he had no involvement, but as they never left him behind, it is a moot point.
And that is the point I seek to make, e.g. there is more than one interpretation of JR relocating BR.

That fateful morning JR was executing an Abduction Scenario, and patently part of this included relocating BR, that was deliberate, in essence because he could not forecast the future he was not certain how the Abduction Scenario might conclude.

So was relocating BR a calculated risk the upside no questions at the house, remember your theory does not have JB appearing until later that day, the downside BR is available for any questions since his parents are not present and he has no legal representation.


As you suggest we cannot fathom the R's intention regarding their son. Yet you would think if JR was reasonably confident that his plan was going to succeed then why send BR away, when he can stay, and fly away to Atlanta later that day, as intended?

Or was JR simply responding to events, in an ad-hoc manner, since if he knew BR snacked pineapple with JonBenet, then JR's proposed version of events can be contradicted, e.g. did he know?

If the plan, e.g. your version, succeeded then would the R's have stayed in Boulder? Whenever they announced JonBenet had been returned the house would have been sealed and searched forensically. Do you reckon they would have flown interstate, would the flight be booked in advance or after JonBenet is found?

Or would the plan be tweaked to suit the circumstances?



.
 

Alix

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Alix,
Well if you read DeeDee249's post below you will find that the PR and JR intended flying out of Colorado to Atlanta, now this was no vacation trip, their daughters corpse is lying beneath the Christmas Tree and within 30 minutes of her discovery the parents are leaving town, and you reckon they intend to stay in the USofA, dream on.

So we know the parents intended fleeing interstate, placing BR outside of the house might indicate the R's never intended that he flee with them, simply because he was not involved in the death of JonBenet. And if he was JR is offering a hostage to fortune since he will be unable to control access to BR, should anyone wish to talk to him.



The object of the exercise is not for me to arrange sentences and facts so that they coincide with your view of the JonBenet case, otherwise the board would be rather dull.

Please take a shower, have nice cup of coffee and pick up a cigar on the way out, thank you.

Nonsense. They weren't going to leave their country and their money. They felt they were more powerful and a whole lot slicker than the country cops they lived near. Fleeing to South America? Give me a break.:floorlaugh:
 

BBB167893

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Nonsense. They weren't going to leave their country and their money. They felt they were more powerful and a whole lot slicker than the country cops they lived near. Fleeing to South America? Give me a break.:floorlaugh:

Arrogance WAS something of an epidemic in this case, wasn't it?
 

Chrishope

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I have mentioned MY theory of JR's "specific plan" more times than I can say. I don't know why you need me to repeat it but:

It had nothing to do with placing BR in a safe location. His own home was safe, because there was no kidnapper and no danger. It had everything to do with preventing police from observing and talking to him that day, and everything to do with preventing BR from seeing his sister's dead body when it was found. If you view that as "kind compassion" so be it. To me, it was a no-brainer.
Their plan, IMO, was to wait until police left the house, then bring her up from the wineceller, where they had hidden her. This way, they could call police to say that she had been returned, but had been killed because they called police. Then, when it became apparent that police were not going to leave them alone in the house, JR had to change the plan and bring find her himself before too much time had elapsed and the body became more decomposed.
Of course, this plan had some holes in it. Some things seemed not to have been thought out, or we are simply not aware of it because it did not take place. Had they claimed she had been returned, where was she placed? Did the kidnappers put her on the front steps and ring the bell? Why wouldn't they have been seen? How would rigor and livor mortis have been factored in? The Rs were not knowledgeable about these matters to the extent that they would have known that the coroner would find discrepancies in their claims. After all, they did not realize the pineapple could be detected in the autopsy.
How the R were going to work out the logistics of this plan, if it indeed was the plan, is unknown.
I feel the Rs had distanced themselves from JB, her corpse, and the events of the night as soon as they placed the 911 call. What you view as brutal disregard I see as self-preservation. Once they were in that mind-set, the momentum carried them away. Eventually people like that actually believe their own lies.

Lets face it, we do not know exactly what the Rs were panning. And I am tired of going back and forth about it. The FACT is that BR was sent to the White's early that morning after the first officer had arrived and obviously at that time, JR was unaware of FW's earlier trip to the wineceller and unaware that FW would comment to about it. At that time, there was no reason for JR to believe that FW suspected anything. My theories about why BR was sent to the White's make sense to ME, and fit in to most RDI theories.
If you disagree, fine. I strongly disagree that the Rs planned to leave their son behind in a flight out of Boulder. So we'll have to agree to disagree and call it a day.

Their plan, IMO, was to wait until police left the house, then bring her up from the wineceller, where they had hidden her. This way, they could call police to say that she had been returned, but had been killed because they called police. Then, when it became apparent that police were not going to leave them alone in the house, JR had to change the plan and bring find her himself before too much time had elapsed and the body became more decomposed.

As you acknowledge there would be many holes in such a plan. So many in fact that it seems unlikely this was their plan at all.

No rational person could have assumed the body would not be found, and quickly. It didn't happen quickly, but no one could have foreseen the Keystone Kops level of police work. Barney Fife could have done a better job.

Then there are all the guests invited to the "Our daughters been kidnapped and we're not supposed to notify anyone" party. Surely one of them would go searching and open the door of the WC. At least a rational person would have to consider it s strong possibility.

The Rs would have to assume competent searches, and a reasonable person would think a K9 unit might be called in. In that case the dog finds JBR in just a few minutes

So there is, IMO, no possibility that the plan was for the body to remain undetected in the WC. I think it's more likely they expected the body to be found quickly, then when it was taken to the morgue, they could collect BR and fly to Atlanta. (If they weren't arrested, as they should have been) I think BR was sent to the Whites to prevent him from seeing the body, and to prevent him from seeing his parents arrested, should that happen.

I also don't think it makes sense that any plan would include the "return" of the body.

Even if kinappers killed JBR because the police were called, why would they return her? They'd just dump her somewhere. To suggest the girl had been returned, dead, would make it fishier than it already was (if that's possible)

If there was a plan to remove the body from the house, the plan had been abandoned before the 911 call was made. At that point, the best they could hope for was that the cops would believe kidnappers had placed her in the WC.
 

azwriter

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The Rs attempting to flee to Atlanta is a fact. Their intentions regarding their son is not. Had they been allowed to leave, I have no doubt they would have, taking their son with them. Without charges being filed, they were not fugitives, and were in no more danger in Atlanta than they would be in another country. I think they'd have done just what they eventually did- settle back in Atlanta.
With BR left behind, the Rs would have much less control over who had access to BR. IMO, their leaving him behind would not have been an indication that he had no involvement, but as they never left him behind, it is a moot point.

DeeDee, I'm in total agreement with you that John and Patsy would certainly take Burke along to Atlanta. He was removed from the home that morning, I think, as you do, to make sure he wasn't questioned by the police at that time.

However, the bigger question to me is why did the Ramsey's want to leave Boulder and do it so quickly? Their daughter's body is found. She has been killed by someone, it wasn't a sucuide. But here's the so called loving parents wanting to get as far away as possible from this crime. Wouldn't they want to stay, cooperate with LE and find whoever did this crime? After all, they did about a week later appear on international television to discuss the case and plea to the public for help. If it were you or me, or most of us on this site, we would stick around in the area and help find the killer.

Of course the obvious answer to my question is that the parents, just as they had done with their son, wanted to get away from the prying eyes of LE. They did not want to answer questions. They did not care who committed this murder of their precious daughter. And the reason for that, is that they knew who killed JonBenet, they knew first hand what happened.

I still shake my head over their plan to leave immediately before their child's body was even removed from the home. It's just one more suspicious act by the Ramseys.
just my O
 

azwriter

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Arrogance WAS something of an epidemic in this case, wasn't it?

Arrogance! That's it. That's the word that's dripping all over this case, the parents, the parents lawyers and anyone who has worked to help confuse, cover up or hide what really happened to this little girl.

Thanks Dave. I needed that word. No wonder they call you Super!
 

Agatha_C

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I have mentioned MY theory of JR's "specific plan" more times than I can say. I don't know why you need me to repeat it but:

It had nothing to do with placing BR in a safe location. His own home was safe, because there was no kidnapper and no danger. It had everything to do with preventing police from observing and talking to him that day, and everything to do with preventing BR from seeing his sister's dead body when it was found. If you view that as "kind compassion" so be it. To me, it was a no-brainer.
Their plan, IMO, was to wait until police left the house, then bring her up from the wineceller, where they had hidden her. This way, they could call police to say that she had been returned, but had been killed because they called police. Then, when it became apparent that police were not going to leave them alone in the house, JR had to change the plan and bring find her himself before too much time had elapsed and the body became more decomposed.
Of course, this plan had some holes in it. Some things seemed not to have been thought out, or we are simply not aware of it because it did not take place. Had they claimed she had been returned, where was she placed? Did the kidnappers put her on the front steps and ring the bell? Why wouldn't they have been seen? How would rigor and livor mortis have been factored in? The Rs were not knowledgeable about these matters to the extent that they would have known that the coroner would find discrepancies in their claims. After all, they did not realize the pineapple could be detected in the autopsy.
How the R were going to work out the logistics of this plan, if it indeed was the plan, is unknown.
I feel the Rs had distanced themselves from JB, her corpse, and the events of the night as soon as they placed the 911 call. What you view as brutal disregard I see as self-preservation. Once they were in that mind-set, the momentum carried them away. Eventually people like that actually believe their own lies.

Lets face it, we do not know exactly what the Rs were panning. And I am tired of going back and forth about it. The FACT is that BR was sent to the White's early that morning after the first officer had arrived and obviously at that time, JR was unaware of FW's earlier trip to the wineceller and unaware that FW would comment to about it. At that time, there was no reason for JR to believe that FW suspected anything. My theories about why BR was sent to the White's make sense to ME, and fit in to most RDI theories.
If you disagree, fine. I strongly disagree that the Rs planned to leave their son behind in a flight out of Boulder. So we'll have to agree to disagree and call it a day.


DeeDee,

I totally agree with you. I dont think the Rs planned to leave BR behind. Belowe is a list of reasons why I believe this.

1.... The R's knew that BR could discredit the most important lie they told. Jonbenet was awake and had entered the house on her own and even stayed awake long enough to eat a snack.

2.... What the Rs couldnt be sure of, is how much BR heard/knew about the rest of that night. If that is BRs voice on the 911 call then we and they can assume that he saw and heard more then they knew...

3.... If the plan was (and I think it was) that the kidnapping lie would play out with the Police leaving to find JBR, the body being returned already dead and the Rs boarding the jet and fleeing for safety, BR was ready with backpack packed with the important stuff for a 9 y/o boy>>> HIS XMAS GIFT THE NINTENDO 64!!!!!! Lets think about that. He took the Nintendo with him, do we honestly believe that FWJ didnt have a 64? BR was ready to move when his parents ran to safety.

4... Last and most important>>> JBR was going to have to come out of that basement, whether the Rs stagged her return or LE found her and that they did not want him to see. The Rs hoped to spare him being a witness and/or traumatized child....

They would never have left him behind while they ran. Of all the things I think and believe of the Rs, this is not one.....
 

UKGuy

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DeeDee,

I totally agree with you. I dont think the Rs planned to leave BR behind. Belowe is a list of reasons why I believe this.

1.... The R's knew that BR could discredit the most important lie they told. Jonbenet was awake and had entered the house on her own and even stayed awake long enough to eat a snack.

2.... What the Rs couldnt be sure of, is how much BR heard/knew about the rest of that night. If that is BRs voice on the 911 call then we and they can assume that he saw and heard more then they knew...

3.... If the plan was (and I think it was) that the kidnapping lie would play out with the Police leaving to find JBR, the body being returned already dead and the Rs boarding the jet and fleeing for safety, BR was ready with backpack packed with the important stuff for a 9 y/o boy>>> HIS XMAS GIFT THE NINTENDO 64!!!!!! Lets think about that. He took the Nintendo with him, do we honestly believe that FWJ didnt have a 64? BR was ready to move when his parents ran to safety.

4... Last and most important>>> JBR was going to have to come out of that basement, whether the Rs stagged her return or LE found her and that they did not want him to see. The Rs hoped to spare him being a witness and/or traumatized child....

They would never have left him behind while they ran. Of all the things I think and believe of the Rs, this is not one.....

Agatha_C,
Well they did have a plan, right? Now, unless it was a conspiracy with someone inside BPD, they probably thought JonBenet will be found pretty quickly, so we need to take the first opportunity to flee Colorado, by plane.

I reckon once the R's left Boulder they were never coming back, under any circumstances, they intended fleeing Colorado, because they knew they would be prime suspects in a homicide case.

But things never worked out to plan, and they played to the gallery, along with the ineptitude of the BPD, they managed to evade facing any judicial scrutiny.

If Burke was innocent of any involvement, then his testimony would count for nothing if the R's have fled the USofA. That the R's would attempt to flee interstate demonstrates this was part of their plan. Why leaving Burke behind would not be, when they have the option not to relocate him initially, seems contradictory.

The parents intended to evade justice, Burke would be a deterrent to this process, removing him, as JonBenet was removed, solves a logistical problem.
 

OneLove

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Agatha_C,
Well they did have a plan, right? Now, unless it was a conspiracy with someone inside BPD, they probably thought JonBenet will be found pretty quickly, so we need to take the first opportunity to flee Colorado, by plane.

<<< snip >>>

The parents intended to evade justice, Burke would be a deterrent to this process, removing him, as JonBenet was removed, solves a logistical problem.

Yes, and Burke was the only living person who could tell the detail of what life was really like in that household behind closed doors. I have no doubt that there were many things he might have innocently told at that age that someone didn't want revealed. Maybe the illusion of perfection that had been so diligently guarded would have crumbled in the dust.
 

DeeDee249

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DeeDee, I'm in total agreement with you that John and Patsy would certainly take Burke along to Atlanta. He was removed from the home that morning, I think, as you do, to make sure he wasn't questioned by the police at that time.

However, the bigger question to me is why did the Ramsey's want to leave Boulder and do it so quickly? Their daughter's body is found. She has been killed by someone, it wasn't a sucuide. But here's the so called loving parents wanting to get as far away as possible from this crime. Wouldn't they want to stay, cooperate with LE and find whoever did this crime? After all, they did about a week later appear on international television to discuss the case and plea to the public for help. If it were you or me, or most of us on this site, we would stick around in the area and help find the killer.

Of course the obvious answer to my question is that the parents, just as they had done with their son, wanted to get away from the prying eyes of LE. They did not want to answer questions. They did not care who committed this murder of their precious daughter. And the reason for that, is that they knew who killed JonBenet, they knew first hand what happened.

I still shake my head over their plan to leave immediately before their child's body was even removed from the home. It's just one more suspicious act by the Ramseys.
just my O

At the time JR was overheard making that phone call to his pilot, JB had been "found". The Rs had had several hours at this point, from the time of whatever incident had caused JB's death. The body had been staged, the note had been written, the horror of it all had set in, and adrenaline taken over. They had very likely planned this escape, whether or not police found the body or they were forced to "find" her themselves.
They needed to get out of town as soon as they could- JB was dead, and at that point, they knew her body would be removed from the home and taken to the morgue, whether they were there or not. She was no longer their "problem" as far as what would happen to her body. I feel they needed to get away from her as much as they needed to get away from LE. And- LE would have more difficulty getting to them for questioning if they were in Atlanta.
I think the JR was truly surprised that he wasn't going to be allowed to leave Boulder. He was used to being catered to, to getting his way, and saw no reason why the police wouldn't be as acquiescent as the DA was.
I suppose, had their original expectations occurred (police leaving them in the home alone after their preliminary investigation) that they would have called police to say she had been found, that she had been in the house all along, that the kidnappers must have found a way to place her in the basement without their noticing or that the kidnappers had killed her before they wrote the note. They never thought this would be questioned, as to why kidnappers would leave the body behind, which they could still have held for ransom.
 

UKGuy

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Yes, and Burke was the only living person who could tell the detail of what life was really like in that household behind closed doors. I have no doubt that there were many things he might have innocently told at that age that someone didn't want revealed. Maybe the illusion of perfection that had been so diligently guarded would have crumbled in the dust.

OneLove,
I have no doubt that there were many things he might have innocently told at that age that someone didn't want revealed.
There is no doubt that this was something likely to occur. JR would have probably phoned Pam or another relative to pick Burke up, appointed an attorney, and kept him away from any BDP interview.

Maybe the illusion of perfection that had been so diligently guarded would have crumbled in the dust.
Absolutely 100% correct. This is why whatever Burke said did not matter, at this point the R's would be seen to evading justice. While technically innocent, it would be plain to the world that they were leaving Colorado, for one reason only!

If you or anyone else considers Burke a threat to the R's version of events, precisely because he can offer his account of prior events, then why would JR entrust him into Fleet White's custody?

Was it because, whether or not the parents were arrested, the parents wanted the Burke issue sorted? Parents in flight minus Burke, or parents in BPD custody after being arrested, minus Burke. Means in both cases that another agenda can be pursued regarding Burke?

Relocating Burke was a tactical decision, it makes any decision to fly out of Colorado that much simpler. If they had wanted Burke on that flight, they would never have entrusted him to Fleet White.

From the R's perspective, it was a case of self-preservation, survival. Once they left Colorado, they knew the game would be up. They could communicate with Burke by phone, he could be reunited with them at a later date. I doubt they ever intended to abandon him completely, but as a logistical problem, Burke had been taken care, clearing the path for the parents to leave the scene of the crime, as soon as possible.




.
 

Chrishope

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At the time JR was overheard making that phone call to his pilot, JB had been "found". The Rs had had several hours at this point, from the time of whatever incident had caused JB's death. The body had been staged, the note had been written, the horror of it all had set in, and adrenaline taken over. They had very likely planned this escape, whether or not police found the body or they were forced to "find" her themselves.
They needed to get out of town as soon as they could- JB was dead, and at that point, they knew her body would be removed from the home and taken to the morgue, whether they were there or not. She was no longer their "problem" as far as what would happen to her body. I feel they needed to get away from her as much as they needed to get away from LE. And- LE would have more difficulty getting to them for questioning if they were in Atlanta.
I think the JR was truly surprised that he wasn't going to be allowed to leave Boulder. He was used to being catered to, to getting his way, and saw no reason why the police wouldn't be as acquiescent as the DA was.
I suppose, had their original expectations occurred (police leaving them in the home alone after their preliminary investigation) that they would have called police to say she had been found, that she had been in the house all along, that the kidnappers must have found a way to place her in the basement without their noticing or that the kidnappers had killed her before they wrote the note. They never thought this would be questioned, as to why kidnappers would leave the body behind, which they could still have held for ransom.

It's highly unlikely the Rs expected to be alone in the house with the undiscovered body. Once the 911 call was placed, they had to expect the strong possibility of a (competent) search. They also had to expect one of the guests they had invited over that morning to wander around and possibly find the body. They also had to expect a high likelihood of a K9 unit being called in. They had to figure on the body being found fairly quickly. No other outcome was likely, despite the fact that it actually took several hours. The unlikely happened, but they could not have rationally planned on that.

Since they'd have to say the body was in the house all along - supposedly hidden in the WC by the intruder/kidnapper- they might as well play that card first thing in the morning. It's not very believable to begin with -that the kidnappers hid her in the WC- but it's even less believable after the police have come and gone.
 

UKGuy

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It's highly unlikely the Rs expected to be alone in the house with the undiscovered body. Once the 911 call was placed, they had to expect the strong possibility of a (competent) search. They also had to expect one of the guests they had invited over that morning to wander around and possibly find the body. They also had to expect a high likelihood of a K9 unit being called in. They had to figure on the body being found fairly quickly. No other outcome was likely, despite the fact that it actually took several hours. The unlikely happened, but they could not have rationally planned on that.

Since they'd have to say the body was in the house all along - supposedly hidden in the WC by the intruder/kidnapper- they might as well play that card first thing in the morning. It's not very believable to begin with -that the kidnappers hid her in the WC- but it's even less believable after the police have come and gone.

Chrishope,
Sound reasoning here. And of course the reductio ad absurdum is, if the R's expected or planned to be left with JonBenet's body, so they could effect the next stage of their plan, just why did JR go downstairs and discover JonBenet?



.
 

BBB167893

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Arrogance! That's it. That's the word that's dripping all over this case, the parents, the parents lawyers and anyone who has worked to help confuse, cover up or hide what really happened to this little girl.

And if what I was told in Sunday School is in any way accurate, they'll pay for it. (It's that thought that keeps me warm at night.)

Thanks Dave. I needed that word.

No prob, Bob. Somehow, "hubris" didn't quite capture it.

No wonder they call you Super!

Wait until I get warmed up!
 

Chrishope

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Chrishope,
Sound reasoning here. And of course the reductio ad absurdum is, if the R's expected or planned to be left with JonBenet's body, so they could effect the next stage of their plan, just why did JR go downstairs and discover JonBenet?

.


Exactly. They wanted the body found.

For reasons already stated, they must have figured on it being found relatively quickly. When that didn't happen, they must have wondered how events would unfold. I believe being left alone with the body in the house was one of the last things they wanted. If that happened, then they had to explain, and possibly stage, the return.

They could of course claim that the kidnappers had left the body in the WC, which is how the story was supposed to go anyway. Since that was the story they wanted police to believe, there is no advantage in waiting, might as well get it over with.

Even had the cops left them alone, with the body undiscovered, they would have had no options. They couldn't be sure the house was not under police surveillance, so they couldn't say the kidnappers returned JBR n the middle of the night. The cops would know no one had been there.

Basically once the 911 call was placed, the body had to be found. The story had to be that the killer/kidnapper "hid" the body in the WC hoping it wouldn't be found before ransom was collected - or hoping for the so-called "kidnapping gone bad" theory to be floated.

If there was a plan I think they knew they could not proceed with the next step until the body was found.
 

UKGuy

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Exactly. They wanted the body found.

For reasons already stated, they must have figured on it being found relatively quickly. When that didn't happen, they must have wondered how events would unfold. I believe being left alone with the body in the house was one of the last things they wanted. If that happened, then they had to explain, and possibly stage, the return.

They could of course claim that the kidnappers had left the body in the WC, which is how the story was supposed to go anyway. Since that was the story they wanted police to believe, there is no advantage in waiting, might as well get it over with.

Even had the cops left them alone, with the body undiscovered, they would have had no options. They couldn't be sure the house was not under police surveillance, so they couldn't say the kidnappers returned JBR n the middle of the night. The cops would know no one had been there.

Basically once the 911 call was placed, the body had to be found. The story had to be that the killer/kidnapper "hid" the body in the WC hoping it wouldn't be found before ransom was collected - or hoping for the so-called "kidnapping gone bad" theory to be floated.

If there was a plan I think they knew they could not proceed with the next step until the body was found.


Chrishope,
Even had the cops left them alone, with the body undiscovered, they would have had no options. They couldn't be sure the house was not under police surveillance, so they couldn't say the kidnappers returned JBR n the middle of the night. The cops would know no one had been there.
I totally agree. The R's could never have planned on being left with JonBenet. This would have placed them back at square one. An unexplained body in their house!

Basically once the 911 call was placed, the body had to be found. The story had to be that the killer/kidnapper "hid" the body in the WC hoping it wouldn't be found before ransom was collected - or hoping for the so-called "kidnapping gone bad" theory to be floated.
Absolutely, this was part of the plan, since events actually allow for no other outcome. The R's assumed JonBenet would be found quickly and they would, act out whatever their prepared agenda was, along with their invited retinue of friends injecting support.

If there was a plan I think they knew they could not proceed with the next step until the body was found.
This is what I reckon was the case. With JR hastily phoning his pilot to arrange a flight, tells you everything you need to know. Another part of the plan that we give less scrutiny too, is the removal of forensic evidence. Its likely JR did the rounds of his own house with an eye on evidence removal, and who suggested the guests start cleaning stuff, duh?

The R's plan looks like this to me:

1. Dial 911
2. Dial Guests
3. Relocate Burke
4. Check For Evidence
5. JonBenet Discovered By LEA
6. R's Feign Astonishment
7. R's Fly Out Of Boulder ASAP

Mission Accomplished.
 

Chrishope

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Chrishope,

I totally agree. The R's could never have planned on being left with JonBenet. This would have placed them back at square one. An unexplained body in their house!


Absolutely, this was part of the plan, since events actually allow for no other outcome. The R's assumed JonBenet would be found quickly and they would, act out whatever their prepared agenda was, along with their invited retinue of friends injecting support.


This is what I reckon was the case. With JR hastily phoning his pilot to arrange a flight, tells you everything you need to know. Another part of the plan that we give less scrutiny too, is the removal of forensic evidence. Its likely JR did the rounds of his own house with an eye on evidence removal, and who suggested the guests start cleaning stuff, duh?

The R's plan looks like this to me:

1. Dial 911
2. Dial Guests
3. Relocate Burke
4. Check For Evidence
5. JonBenet Discovered By LEA
6. R's Feign Astonishment
7. R's Fly Out Of Boulder ASAP

Mission Accomplished.


I think that's pretty much it. The only twist I can think of is flying to Atlanta could have been added to the plan at the last minute, when it was clear no arrests were going to be made - at least not on that day.
 

Flatlander

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What you are referring to is a comment made by Patsy's mother, Nedra. When she spoke about JB's death, she made a comment that she was "only a little bit molested". This is odd for several reasons. First, if it were my granddaughter, there would be a lot more anger and much less tolerance for how molested she was. It was also a very suspicious comment to make because Patsy and JR had such suspicious reactions to being told about evidence of sexual abuse. Neither claimed to have read the autopsy report. When told of the abuse, instead of shock, anger, horror- Patsy defiantly and angrily said "You show me where it says that!" JR, instead of shock and horror, accused LE of "trying to defile my relationship with my daughter".
Is this the reactions of innocent people whose little girl was found murdered? They should have been tearing the police station down until they found who had done this, not reacting defensively.
Nedra's comment proves she had the information from somewhere. It was like she was saying it's no big deal- just a "little bit of molestation", as if it was OK because it was not a rape with a penis. As if a finger is OK.
Well, it WAS a big deal. NOTHING belongs inside the vagina of a 6-year old girl. Inside JB's was her own blood, bruising, erosion and hyperemia (inflammation) as well as the FACT that it was stretched much larger than it should have been for a child that age.
The following was taken from The Crime Magazine an encyclopedia of crime dated 4-14-2004:
"Patsy was apparently concerned enough about some aspect of JonBenet or Burke's moral compass that she mentioned her concern to her father. He gave her the 1992 book Why Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong, she told police, in which then Boston College education professor William Kilpatrick argued that kids were morally adrift in part because "our culture sends out confusing and misleading messages about sex." The result, he wrote, is that when teens are confronted by adults over sexual misbehaviors, a frequent response in simply, "I didn't know it was wrong."
Kilpatrick didn't mention beauty pageants for 6-year olds as part of the problem. He cited sex-education courses in which sex is taught as though there is no moral component. "The point (of these classes)," Kilpatrick wrote, "is to be able to view sex as a nonmoral, nonromantic recreational activity." That's a formula for trouble because it fuels a range of sex-realted problems (adultery, diseases, neglected children). "sooner or later, "he argued, "sexual irresponsibility ...become (s) everyone's problem."

Also worth noting on this subject: Detective Linda Arndt suggested in a 2000 deposition in connection with a suit she filed against the city that social services personnel considered more than the possibility that John Ramsey was sexually abusing his daughter. She said her opinions about the case had been dismissed by her law enforcement colleagues, as had the opinions of "all the department of social services."
Q: Which opinions were these?
A: Incest, naming the Ramseys as suspects.
Q: But when you refer to incest, it could involve any number of family members. I'm just trying to identify the family memebers when you use that term.
A: I refer to every member of the family. Every member has a role.

I totally and completely agree with DeeDee there is no such thing as a little molested. JonBenet was molested, it was a known fact i.e. dictionary turned and cornered to ear mark incest in JR den. The book found on Patsy's beside table given to her by her father. The Ramsey's said they didn't know about it merely to keep the rest of the family intact. Sick, sick, sick.:sick::sick:
 
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