Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by madeleine, Jun 7, 2011.

?

who molested/abused JB?

  1. JR

    180 vote(s)
    27.1%
  2. BR

    203 vote(s)
    30.6%
  3. JAR

    28 vote(s)
    4.2%
  4. a close family friend

    41 vote(s)
    6.2%
  5. a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    20 vote(s)
    3.0%
  6. PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    89 vote(s)
    13.4%
  7. she wasn't previously abused/molested

    103 vote(s)
    15.5%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

    Messages:
    13,259
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Go for it, maddy!
     


  2. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    AND MAYBE one person who was called over (the reason the phone records went missing??) to help clean the crime scene (the foreign unmatched DNA?)
    I guess business/military people like JR know exactly who to call over in crisis situations .BUT on the other hand a profi would have created a scene that actually would have made some sense (staging,RN,etc).
     
  3. tennison

    tennison Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    18
    An entire panel of doctors who did not perform the Áutopsy.
     
  4. tennison

    tennison Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Again, it depends on which way you look at it.:twocents:
     
  5. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    no,but them not being present doesn't make them stupid nor unprofessional.
    maybe they've seen the photos and the autopsy report.
    how many experts don't take the stand in each trial and didn't attend the autopsy,doesn't make them less credible.

    if we're talking about an ERODED hymen of a 6years old....do you really need pictures or to be present to see it with your own eyes in order figure it out?
    if the autopsy report says there were OLD scars down there....do you really need someone who was present to translate it to you?
     
  6. tennison

    tennison Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I never suggested they were stupid, however photographs do not and can not take the place of actually being present at an Autopsy, End of.

    JB may have had an eroded Hymen for many reasons, sexual abuse is only one POSSIBILITY, this is why meyer erred on the side of caution her knew he could not say with any certainty there was prior sexual abuse.:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
     
  7. Let_Forever_Be

    Let_Forever_Be New Member

    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The autopsy does not say that no chronic molestation occurred.Most factual analyses of this case have been based on an interpretation of the autopsy. Thus, your inability to present evidence that no molestation occurred is manifestly refuted by the majority of experts who analysed the evidence available and said abuse did occur.

    Either JonBenet was molested or she was not. The evidence clearly says she was. JonBenet's genital opening was twice the size of normal 6 year old girls;She had clear 'fiddling' in the 7 o;clock position and birefringement material found. Further, there was chronic inflammation (and Meyer does note that) as well as an acute injury whereby blood was drawn.

    You were caught out being disingenuous when you posted a quote from the Carnes ruling trying to somehow conflate it to be what the autopsy says.The Carnes ruling is likewise an opinion from a judge who did not have access to all the evidence. For example, Cyril Wecht did not testify at that case.

    The autopsy merely presents the clinical facts of what happened. It doesn't opine. It's job is to record in a clinical matter the 'effects' first and foremost. The 'cause's of those 'effects' are only stated if the coroner is manifestly sure/confident in what he is saying. Perhaps a better coroner would have been more forthright in his opinion than Meyer. Who knows.

    Doctors, coroners and criminal pathologists drew their conclusions from the findings of the autopsy.Most of these experts came to the conclusion : JonBenet was chronically and sexually molested.
     
  8. BBB167893

    BBB167893 Former Member

    Messages:
    13,259
    Likes Received:
    102
    Trophy Points:
    48
    If it were ONLY the eroded hymen, tennison, I might agree with you.
     
  9. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    are you suggesting Meyer is the only one who can be right about this because he was present?

    a weird crime ,the killer's nr.1 priority is to redress and wipe the genital area of the victim off,you got acute sexual damage,an eroded hymen and OLD scars.....yeah,those old scars were definitely inflicted by herself while playing with mommy's tampons.....and that's why her hymen was eroded as well,right
     
  10. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    btw,didn't Meyer say he had more but didn't write it down because he saves it for the trial?I know I read this somewhere and even posted it a while ago.
     
  11. Let_Forever_Be

    Let_Forever_Be New Member

    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Meyer was asked to re-phrase at least one part. Can't remember what bit it was tho.
     
  12. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    It's not like Meyer is one of those you can trust in this case anyway....I myslef don't,too many screw-ups.

    Btw,I found what I was looking for,it was about the TOD

    >>>>>>>


    Wecht also questioned why there was no estimated time of death in the autopsy.

    But Meyer said it isn't unusual not to include an estimated time of death in an autopsy report.

    "The investigation is still ongoing," Meyer said. "There may be some point that comes up during the investigation that might have an influence on what that estimated time of death is. I don't like to put interpretive things in an autopsy report."

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    From a statement by Boulder County Coroner John E. Meyer, M.D.:

    "The time of an 'unwitnessed' death is very difficult to determine with any precision, and at best is an estimate based not only on autopsy findings but also on investigative information.
    "I consider estimation of time of death to be an interpretive finding rather than a factual statement, and it is not this Office's practice to include this estimate as part of any autopsy report. HUH?:waitasec:As has been stated in the past, it would also be inappropriate for me, as a potential expert and material witness, to make interpretive statements prior to testifying in court."

    ---------------------------------------


    BUT


    ST's book,pg 39

    "Meyer stayed only 7 minutes ,not taking the time to perform two routine procedures that would have helped establish the time of death-taking vitreous fluid from the eye and obtaining the internal body temperature."
    __________________


    :rolleyes:

    it's not the only mistake he made.....remember the contaminated nail clippings.......
    I guess it was convenient for everybody that his report left us with so many unanswered questions...;)
     
  13. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Meyer makes it sound like it's not something important,IMO it's crucial.....he basically made sure we don't have neither COD(what came first will always be an issue and could change everything) nor TOD,without this two this case is a mess.What case isn't.....

    Look at what happens in the Anthony case,I read Spitz is gonna testify on behalf of Casey,he's gonna say,hey,you got no COD,how do you know it wasn't an accident?And he's kinda right,don't you think?


    ETA:

    "The medical examiner and the police (in Orlando, Fla.) determined that the cause of death was undeterminable and the manner of death was homicide," Dr. Werner Spitz of Grosse Pointe Shores told The Detroit News.

    "If you don't know what she died of, how do you know it was a homicide?"

    http://detnews.com/article/20110616/METRO/106160385/1409/rss36
     
  14. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,826
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    madeleine,
    Although I like to debate what came first head injury or strangulation etc. In a sense they do not matter, since Coroner Meyer's autopsy clearly attributes COD to both the head injury and ligature strangulation. Clinically this is known as hypoxia.

    e.g. Definition
    On the witness stand I reckon Coroner Meyer would interpret the ligature strangulation much as most RDI theorists do, probably offering reasons why an EA interpretation could never get off the ground, and elaborating on the head injury. And it is the latter along with his interpretation of any prior molestation that would be interesting. One question an compotent prosecutor would put to Coroner Meyer might be: In your estimation, did two different people molest JonBenet, that is one prior to the night of her death, and another on the night of her death? He might also opine on the likely sequence of events, head blow followed by strangulation and its reverse.



    .
     
  15. madeleine

    madeleine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,973
    Likes Received:
    74
    Trophy Points:
    48
    maybe in court or in theory it wouldn't matter much but to me it does because in my opinion strangulation first tells me it was either premeditation ,sex game gone wrong or BDI (aggressive playing,domination) and the head bash was meant to finish her off or shut her up (she was screaming)

    head bash first makes me think of other theories

    so to me it's very important which came first and I think it would be very helpful for a prosecutor as well when building the case



    very interesting.IMO this could also be a defence question,to raise reasonable doubt...you can't prove that whoever molested her the day before or so was the same person who assaulted her the night of the murder
    even IF it's not likely there were 2 different persons,IMO it's not possible at all,I mean how unlucky was this little girl,2 different abusers.....

    the thing is,even if it's not likely,in a defence lawyers mind it's always "possible" as long as it raises reasonable doubt.......
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,826
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    madeleine,
    Yes I do agree.


    I guess thats why its a good question to ask Meyer. He would have to address the chronic and acute abuse.

    Something I forgot were all the other ancilliary injuries inflicted upon JonBenet, e.g. those unexplained bruises etc. Just wonder what Coroner Meyer's interpretation would be here?



    .
     
  17. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,053
    Likes Received:
    291
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Too bad Mayer didn't address it himself. I think this was not an oversight. He's retired now. I wonder if this case ever came to trial, would he be compelled to testify?
     
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,826
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Trophy Points:
    113
    DeeDee249,
    I agree, no steer on the bruising or sequence of events. He would be compelled to testify. He wrote the autopsy report so he would have to give an account of that and verify whether his verbatim remarks were as such. Including whether other internal BPD forensic evidence was consistent with his report.

    He could become non-committal if he did not wish to answer hypothetical questions. He probably prefers a quiet life and says a thanks giving prayer everyday, since he has never been called as a witness for the prosecution in the case the State of Colorado vs Ramsey. Yet!


    .
     
  19. LinasK

    LinasK Verified insider- Mark Dribin case

    Messages:
    25,265
    Likes Received:
    10,875
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The other thing that seals it as John molesting her for me- is that the black fibers from his unique Israeli-made shirt were found in her panties!!! There is no innocent explanation/laundry transfer for that!:snooty:
     
  20. LinasK

    LinasK Verified insider- Mark Dribin case

    Messages:
    25,265
    Likes Received:
    10,875
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, he's not right in the Casey Anthony case- it was NO accident that Casey murdered her by suffocation-clearly, it wasn't suicide , but we're not here to discuss that case!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice