Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[UKGuy]

Your version of events seem to omit the existence of the points below


1. Untraced animal hair found on duct tape AND jonbenets hands
2. Unidentified palmprint on cellar door
3. Baseball bat Not belonging to ramsays found near house WITH fibres from the basement carpet.
4. Cotton fibres found On JB,Duct tape AND ligature not sourced to ramsays
5. Pubic hair not sourced to ramsays found on blanket covering the Jonbenet
6. Unidentified touch DNA found on Jonbenet

Now you will notice that it seems a short list, others may have included evidence such as Stun guns, unidentified footprints, moved window grate, disturbed basement door, footprints in cellar, suitcase under the cellar window ect, but i am openminded enough to see these as possibly explainable by other means, i dont necessarily disbelieve these were evidence to "suggest" an intruder, but i believe we must work with the facts that have not been fully explained.

maybe you could collate a factual list similar to see if your theory holds up as well.
I doubt it.:seeya:

tennison,
Are you serious? Items on the list have all been explained away before.

but i believe we must work with the facts that have not been fully explained.

What facts have not been fully explained? If its a fact then you will know all about it?

maybe you could collate a factual list similar to see if your theory holds up as well.
I doubt it.:seeya:

Well I don't play games online, sorry!



.

 

[DeeDee249]

I remember something from a long time ago sourcing the animal hair to the paintbrushes in the artists tray belonging to Patsy. I've tried finding it again and I can't, so maybe it was just an opinion all those years ago.

The palm print belonged to Melinda Ramsey.

The baseball bat was outside the house, not inside. Besides, wouldn't it be awkward to hit her with a baseball bat, given the size, while choking and stun-gunning (tic), her?

Many fibers were identified, including fibers from Patsy's jacket that were found on the sticky side of the duct tape....that was left in the cellar.

It was not a pubic hair.

Stun guns? How many were there? This is news to me, I didn't realize they'd found stun guns.

Moved grate? Disturbed basement door? Please, refresh my memory?

There were NO stun guns found. There WAS a video manual for a stun gun found in the home which JR admitted purchasing. (the video, not a stun gun). It was never determined why the Rs had a stun gun manual but no stun gun.
The window grate was NOT found to have been moved. There was an intact, unbroken spider web still spun across it. LE noted this FACT.

 

[DeeDee249]

with the many dr appointments, that wouldnt be inconsistent with the conditions in her autopsy report.

Many of JB's doctor visits were for "vaginal irritation". The pediatrician admitted he never used a speculum on JB nor did he do a pelvic exam. Her internal vaginal injuries were not seen until her autopsy.
It was said by some in Patsy's circle that she used to douche JB because JB soiled her pants with fecal matter, and Patsy felt this also was a cause of her vaginal infections. But that type of fecal contamination usually causes UTIs (urinary tract infections) which can cause fever and require an antibiotic to treat. In JB's case, she was diagnosed with simple vaginitis which is different.
There is no way to verify that Patsy used a douche on JB. Had the case gone to trial, witnesses may have been called to testify about this and a great many other things, but at this point, there is no way to prove it.
There is speculation that Patsy used a douche the night of the murder and that was what caused JB to scream and bleed. The blood is a FACT- we just don't know what caused it. The scream, while I believe there was a scream, simply cannot be proven. It would have had to be recorded. However, had there been a trial, the neighbor who reported the scream around midnight may have been called to testify. Her husband heard "metal scraping concrete". There were metal paint cans in the wineceller that may have been moved to place the body.
And as I have said- this is forum for discussion of a crime- it is ALL speculation because none of us were there (but you never know- the internet is SO anonymous we don't really know who we are, do we?)
And all participants have the right to speculate on any matter pertinent to the case. JB had vaginal injuries that are unexplained. They could have been caused by douching or sexual abuse. We'll never know.

 

[tennison]

tennison,
Are you serious? Items on the list have all been explained away before.


What facts have not been fully explained? If its a fact then you will know all about it?


Well I don't play games online, sorry!



.

ALL? really? Add link to proof so.

 

[tennison]

I remember something from a long time ago sourcing the animal hair to the paintbrushes in the artists tray belonging to Patsy. I've tried finding it again and I can't, so maybe it was just an opinion all those years ago.

The palm print belonged to Melinda Ramsey.

The baseball bat was outside the house, not inside. Besides, wouldn't it be awkward to hit her with a baseball bat, given the size, while choking and stun-gunning (tic), her?

Many fibers were identified, including fibers from Patsy's jacket that were found on the sticky side of the duct tape....that was left in the cellar.

It was not a pubic hair.

PLEASSE add the link to evidence proving palm print was melinda ramsays.
You presume too much yor opinion on the "akwardness" of hitting jb with bat holds no water.
Is it possible the duct tape was torn in jb bedroom where it would have picked up patsy's fibres?
Evidence explaining why pubic hair is not a pubic hair?

Source of Print Unknown? "In addition, on the wine-cellar door, there is a palmprint that does not match either of defendants' palmprints. (SMF P 156; PSMF P 156.) The individual to whom it belongs had not yet been identified. (SMF P 156; PSMF P 156.)" (Carnes 2003:19-20).
Stun guns? How many were there? This is news to me, I didn't realize they'd found stun guns.

Moved grate? Disturbed basement door? Please, refresh my memory?

youve heard the stories.:great:

 

[tennison]

There were NO stun guns found. There WAS a video manual for a stun gun found in the home which JR admitted purchasing. (the video, not a stun gun). It was never determined why the Rs had a stun gun manual but no stun gun.
The window grate was NOT found to have been moved. There was an intact, unbroken spider web still spun across it. LE noted this FACT.

I put stun gunS meaning Stun GUN.
I did not state ANYWHERE that a stun gun was found, i was alluding to the theory as to the origin of the two burn marks found on jb's face and torso.

 

[tennison]

There were NO stun guns found. There WAS a video manual for a stun gun found in the home which JR admitted purchasing. (the video, not a stun gun). It was never determined why the Rs had a stun gun manual but no stun gun.
The window grate was NOT found to have been moved. There was an intact, unbroken spider web still spun across it. LE noted this FACT.

Actually this was a video manual "featuring" an ad for stun guns.
iT WAS NOT A STUN GUN MANUAL.

 

[Squishified]

I would feel icky typing out that too. Where do people come up with these crazy theories? What makes you think that Patsy was playing gyno with her daughter? Why sit around a speculate such vile ideas, with absolutely no proof? Geez, do unto others............

It's no more vile than saying BR or JR or Santa were molesting her. There is no proof for that either. Although rare, some mothers DO molest their children.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Going back to the title of this thread, I would like to submit for discussion something that has always weighed heavily on my mind concerning the matter of JonBenet and the issue of abuse - a paper written by Dr. Richard Krugman and Dr. Andrew Sirotnak titled "JonBenet's legacy: Protect our children."

Dr. Andrew Sirotnak was present at JonBenet's autopsy, and according to this paper, believes JonBenet died as a result of child abuse - most likely at the hands of someone she knew, someone who cared for her.


http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today011224.html



JonBenet's legacy: Protect our children


Our community has been reminded of her death in many ways over the past years: the lawsuits, the investigations, the supermarket tabloids. We have continued to focus on identifying JonBenet's killer, yet the real dilemma remains. Despite her high-profile death, over the past five years another 6,000 children have died nationally from fatal child abuse, nearly 200 in Colorado, most of them without attendant media attention.


So what have we really learned over the past five years from the death of this young child?


Clearly, her death has increased our awareness of child homicides. Just as the death of Matthew Eappen at the hands of his English nanny raised the awareness of Shaken Baby Syndrome, so JonBenet Ramsey's death increased the periodic attention paid to fatal child abuse to new heights.


But what has this awareness ultimately done to prevent other children from dying?
For the first time, some of us began to question our belief system about child abuse. With the death of JonBenet Ramsey, America was forced to think about child abuse in a new way. We saw the death of a child in an affluent neighborhood, with wealthy and powerful parents, reinforcing what Dr. C. Henry Kempe of the Kempe Children's Center taught us decades ago: No family, rich or poor, is immune from this problem.

We were also forced to consider whether our own children were safe from intruders who might kidnap and kill them. Although there are a small number of such kidnappings in the United States every year, the vast majority of fatal abuse is perpetrated by someone known to the child, usually a caregiver, and it is rarely intentional or premeditated."

*Rest of article at link*

The drs. allow for the possibility of an intruder, but site it as a secondary possibility behind the probability of death by child abuse...at the hands of someone known to the child, usually a caregiver, and rarely intentional or premeditated.

Which is exactly, IMO, what happened to JonBenet. She was being abused. There is no question of that, the autopsy itself proves that. She was killed as a result of the abuse she had to endure. But who?

Who had that kind of access to JonBenet, not just one night, but enough times prior to the night she was killed that her hymen was eroded, as seen at autopsy? Is the ongoing abuse the reason she had regressed in toileting skills? Is it also the reason she felt the need to visit the school nurse three consecutive Mondays in December, leading up to the week she was killed?

And is that why those school records have never been available in any format, at any source? Is that the same reason why her medical records from the dubious Dr., Beuf are also completely unavailable in any format, at any source?

What are they hiding?

 

[UKGuy]

Going back to the title of this thread, I would like to submit for discussion something that has always weighed heavily on my mind concerning the matter of JonBenet and the issue of abuse - a paper written by Dr. Richard Krugman and Dr. Andrew Sirotnak titled "JonBenet's legacy: Protect our children."

Dr. Andrew Sirotnak was present at JonBenet's autopsy, and according to this paper, believes JonBenet died as a result of child abuse - most likely at the hands of someone she knew, someone who cared for her.


http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today011224.html



JonBenet's legacy: Protect our children


Our community has been reminded of her death in many ways over the past years: the lawsuits, the investigations, the supermarket tabloids. We have continued to focus on identifying JonBenet's killer, yet the real dilemma remains. Despite her high-profile death, over the past five years another 6,000 children have died nationally from fatal child abuse, nearly 200 in Colorado, most of them without attendant media attention.


So what have we really learned over the past five years from the death of this young child?


Clearly, her death has increased our awareness of child homicides. Just as the death of Matthew Eappen at the hands of his English nanny raised the awareness of Shaken Baby Syndrome, so JonBenet Ramsey's death increased the periodic attention paid to fatal child abuse to new heights.


But what has this awareness ultimately done to prevent other children from dying?
For the first time, some of us began to question our belief system about child abuse. With the death of JonBenet Ramsey, America was forced to think about child abuse in a new way. We saw the death of a child in an affluent neighborhood, with wealthy and powerful parents, reinforcing what Dr. C. Henry Kempe of the Kempe Children's Center taught us decades ago: No family, rich or poor, is immune from this problem.

We were also forced to consider whether our own children were safe from intruders who might kidnap and kill them. Although there are a small number of such kidnappings in the United States every year, the vast majority of fatal abuse is perpetrated by someone known to the child, usually a caregiver, and it is rarely intentional or premeditated."

*Rest of article at link*

The drs. allow for the possibility of an intruder, but site it as a secondary possibility behind the probability of death by child abuse...at the hands of someone known to the child, usually a caregiver, and rarely intentional or premeditated.

Which is exactly, IMO, what happened to JonBenet. She was being abused. There is no question of that, the autopsy itself proves that. She was killed as a result of the abuse she had to endure. But who?

Who had that kind of access to JonBenet, not just one night, but enough times prior to the night she was killed that her hymen was eroded, as seen at autopsy? Is the ongoing abuse the reason she had regressed in toileting skills? Is it also the reason she felt the need to visit the school nurse three consecutive Mondays in December, leading up to the week she was killed?

And is that why those school records have never been available in any format, at any source? Is that the same reason why her medical records from the dubious Dr., Beuf are also completely unavailable in any format, at any source?

What are they hiding?

Nuisanceposter,
Its quite likely both sets of records show the same recurring condition. Releasing the information might lend weight to those who think JonBenet's visits to the doctor and nurses were prompted by sexual abuse?

Since JonBenet was sexually molested the night of her death, we can infer the same person was responsible for some prior events? There are only three options.


I reckon nearly everyone on the planet can rank the probable suspects e.g. the parents followed by Burke?



.

 

[DeeDee249]

Nuisanceposter, I have always agreed that JB died at the hands of someone she knew and loved, and thought loved her. Heartbreaking to think that the last face she saw was someone she loved hurting her. And I also agree that it was NOT premeditated and NOT intentional.

 

[vlpate]

youve heard the stories.:great:

You need to use quotes correctly, please. Your post makes it seem as if I've quoted sources I would never quote, especially Carnes. Please, if possible, fix this and then ask your question. Thanks!

 

[vlpate]

There were NO stun guns found. There WAS a video manual for a stun gun found in the home which JR admitted purchasing. (the video, not a stun gun). It was never determined why the Rs had a stun gun manual but no stun gun.
The window grate was NOT found to have been moved. There was an intact, unbroken spider web still spun across it. LE noted this FACT.

DeeDee, I know there were no stun guns found, but unfortunately for some unwitting pig, a gumshoe in Boulder claimed there was.

John, if I remember correctly, said he and PR went into a "spy store" and the stun gun material was given to them. I'll have to look up the interview.

Although I do not believe the window was used by anyone that night, coming or going, I've never given much credence to the spider web's significance. Unless it was old, a spider can spin quite the web within minutes of one being broken and disturbed. Years ago I used to go outside to smoke at work and there was a spider web by a gate I used to stand by. I'd burn the spider web, collapsing it, and the next time I went out, maybe 3 hours later, another web would be in the exact same place. This happened over and over.

 

[BOESP]

Steve Thomas stated in his book that he believed JonBenét died at her mother's hands while subjected to corporal punishment. Based on public knowledge, I still believe this theory fits the bill. Additional info may be found at http://www.livestrong.com/article/168282-definition-of-corporal-punishment-child-abuse/.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, I know there were no stun guns found, but unfortunately for some unwitting pig, a gumshoe in Boulder claimed there was.

John, if I remember correctly, said he and PR went into a "spy store" and the stun gun material was given to them. I'll have to look up the interview.

Although I do not believe the window was used by anyone that night, coming or going, I've never given much credence to the spider web's significance. Unless it was old, a spider can spin quite the web within minutes of one being broken and disturbed. Years ago I used to go outside to smoke at work and there was a spider web by a gate I used to stand by. I'd burn the spider web, collapsing it, and the next time I went out, maybe 3 hours later, another web would be in the exact same place. This happened over and over.

I'd seen the spiderweb discussed in this case before on the web by LE and it was noted that in Colorado, spiders are dormant in winter. They felt the web was from the previous Fall.

 

[Tadpole12]

Many of JB's doctor visits were for "vaginal irritation". The pediatrician admitted he never used a speculum on JB nor did he do a pelvic exam. Her internal vaginal injuries were not seen until her autopsy.
It was said by some in Patsy's circle that she used to douche JB because JB soiled her pants with fecal matter, and Patsy felt this also was a cause of her vaginal infections. But that type of fecal contamination usually causes UTIs (urinary tract infections) which can cause fever and require an antibiotic to treat. In JB's case, she was diagnosed with simple vaginitis which is different.
There is no way to verify that Patsy used a douche on JB. Had the case gone to trial, witnesses may have been called to testify about this and a great many other things, but at this point, there is no way to prove it.
There is speculation that Patsy used a douche the night of the murder and that was what caused JB to scream and bleed. The blood is a FACT- we just don't know what caused it. The scream, while I believe there was a scream, simply cannot be proven. It would have had to be recorded. However, had there been a trial, the neighbor who reported the scream around midnight may have been called to testify. Her husband heard "metal scraping concrete". There were metal paint cans in the wineceller that may have been moved to place the body.
And as I have said- this is forum for discussion of a crime- it is ALL speculation because none of us were there (but you never know- the internet is SO anonymous we don't really know who we are, do we?)
And all participants have the right to speculate on any matter pertinent to the case. JB had vaginal injuries that are unexplained. They could have been caused by douching or sexual abuse. We'll never know.

DeeDee, if the damage to JBR's had been the result of douching, rather than, as suggested, the result of right handed digital penetration, then would the location of damage, erosion of the hymen be denoted at different position than indicated by the autopsy?

 

[BBB167893]

If and I think it's a big if she was molested previously, it could easily be someone other than a family member. I was molested from the age of 7-12, by a friend of the family and a older cousin, my parents don't know to this day and I'm 42.

I'm sorry, Junebug. That's horrible. I didn't mean to be so rough on you. I'll ease up. I promise.

 

[BBB167893]

I have researched as much evidence on this case as i can from the beginning and i cannot find any evidence for prior sexual molestation.

Where would you like to start?

Eroded hymen is oft quoted as proof as is 1cm vaginal opening but both of these are very easilly explained non sexually, certainly not proof by any means.

Even IF they were "easily explained non-sexually," as I've said many times, it's not just one thing that points to molestation, it's the combination of MANY elements. Not JUST the eroded hymen; not JUST the enlarged vaginal opening; not JUST the regression of toilet habits and strange behavior; not JUST the damage to surrounding tissues. It's ALL of that.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, if the damage to JBR's had been the result of douching, rather than, as suggested, the result of right handed digital penetration, then would the location of damage, erosion of the hymen be denoted at different position than indicated by the autopsy?

Hard to say. Every anatomy is different, and it would depend on the size of the douche wand, and the way Patsy held it, and the angle it entered JB. Yet another of the many things that in hindsight could have been discovered at the autopsy had the information been available and the wand been in evidence. A douche wand forces a stream of water into the vagina. Would the force of the water been enough to cause the erosion? Not the bleeding or bruising- that would have had to be the wand itself.

 

[BBB167893]

They answered with I'm not going to provide one, or it's common knowledge no link is necessary. :innocent:

After 15 years, some of us are sick of doing everyone else's research for them and not having it do any good.

Some of us haven't got all the patience in the world.

Some of us don't feel like being put upon anymore.