Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[Darlene733510]

It's been kind of slow here, so I have gone back to reading on ACR. On 4-30-97 PR was questioned by ST and T.Trujillo. One thing ST asked her was about the color of the blanket on JB's bed. The picture she was shown gave the blanket a light pink tinge, but they agreed it was white. Then ST mentioned that if it was a twin bed blanket it was pretty large because the sides of it almost reached the floor. Then he asked about the blanket on PR's and JR's bed, and she said it was similar. I thought this question was asked by ST for a specific reason, and I wonder if the blanket on their bed was not there when they took pictures or investigated. Maybe theirs was the one in the dryer, and the one JB was wrapped in, and maybe her blanket just disappeared. Maybe my imagination is working overtime, but there must have been a reason for that question.
When PR was asked about the evening if the 24th if JB had gone over to BR's bed. She said that BR and JB were conspiring to both sleep in BR's bed so they could wake up together for Chrisrmas morning.
ST asked her if JB usually slept with a pulled back single pony tail held there by hair ties. PR said she usually pulled it back into a single pony tail held there by a rubber band. Maybe she just didn't mention that JB already had her upper hair already put back with a hair tie, and she just added the other one.
PR said that she gave house keys to a lot of people, and she mentioned the Barnhills had keys to the house, in case one of them were locked out, but she said that JR did not know this .
PR mentioned that previously there was a video camera stolen from the house, but she didn't remember if they reported it to the police. (How could she not remember this, and I wonder if that camera was ever replaced, and if it wasn't, is that why there was no video of Christmas morning?). She said that when JAR brought friends home one of them usually slept in the other twin bed in JB's room, and that it was not unusual for JB or BR to go to each others room to sleep.

 

[Charterhouse]

Darlene you presented a lot of good points.

I do know that I buy a size larger blanket for our bed than it calls for. For example a king for a queen bed. I bet J&P's bed was a king and that would be way to large for a twin bed. I agree there was a reason for that question.

Regarding JB hair. I often wear my hair with the upper hair put back in a tie and when I go to bed I just put a tie around the bottom part. I can't stand that in my face at night.

The video camera! Who doesn't know if a video camera is stolen and not reported? Good thinking. It may have been why there was not Christmas morning pictures or it may been there and had Christmas morning things on it that people did not want to be seen and that is why the camera was gone (not stolen)

Just some thoughts!

 

[Charterhouse]

Something I wanted to mention regarding the weights.

I am thinking the weights may be more like the hand weights that are plastic coated. They come in differing pound weights and they are only about 6-8 inches long. One for each hand. They are all one piece. Mine have multiple sizes in a set and the handle is round and the weight part is round. http://www.scriphessco.com/products...arison+Sites&gclid=CMX9u6735rYCFccx4AodgDIA4g

I wonder if these were the kind of weights that they were talking about. I am sorry I did not read the description of the weights.

I know some of these weights have plastic coated but hexagon heads. The ones in this picture are weights where you change the size of the weight but there are some that are hexagon like the ones above also.
http://www.wayfair.com/Hampton-Fitn...ID[]=9358914&gclid=CJGE5ef35rYCFYPd4AodZGAA6g

Just some thoughts about the weights!

 

[Charterhouse]

Now this is an interesting tidbit of info that I did not know! Especially since "the study" was also referred to as "John's study", IIRC. And, with more photos published of Patsy with the kids than of John with the kids, I would suspect that John did a lot of the photography.

It could be that John was the photographer. For some reason I don't think John was around very much at all and they had photos done or someone else took them. John did not seem to know much that was going on in his home IMO.

 

[Charterhouse]

I thought I might go back to that educate yourself website. I was of the same opinion that there wasn't much on there when I read some of their kookie stuff. I guess I should read a little more on there.

There is some wild stuff on there but they did have some accurate info also.

 

[Darlene733510]

I have been reading again today. There was some kind of rod in the basement that was used if there was a problem with the sprinkler system. I think it was used to bring the spouts up for repair. It wasn't explained too good. But PR called it a rod and said it was for that. When showing her pictures of JB's room, she noticed one of the large trophies was tipped over, and said she had put a lot of the other ones somewhere else. They took 15 pairs of panties put of JB's drawer. All of them were size 4 and 6. No size 12.
PR said she got into it with PW when PW told her she knew what was going on, and if PR would give her a few minutes she would let her in on things. PR told her how could she know so much about her child when she knew nothing. That seemed to end the conversation. I wonder what PW knew, and why she has kept quiet all these years.
JB's tiaras were all in disorder, and she said they were not supposed to be that way.

 

[midwest mama]

I have been reading again today. There was some kind of rod in the basement that was used if there was a problem with the sprinkler system. I think it was used to bring the spouts up for repair. It wasn't explained too good. But PR called it a rod and said it was for that. When showing her pictures of JB's room, she noticed one of the large trophies was tipped over, and said she had put a lot of the other ones somewhere else. They took 15 pairs of panties put of JB's drawer. All of them were size 4 and 6. No size 12.
PR said she got into it with PW when PW told her she knew what was going on, and if PR would give her a few minutes she would let her in on things. PR told her how could she know so much about her child when she knew nothing. That seemed to end the conversation. I wonder what PW knew, and why she has kept quiet all these years.
JB's tiaras were all in disorder, and she said they were not supposed to be that way.

My impression of JB's room is that it was a combination of a kid's mess from playing, combined with an unusual amount of disorder from the trophies and tiara's being amiss, along with drawers photographed hanging open and Kolar's release of the fouled candy box info. Something unusual went on in that room - more than a regular messy kid's room, since the housekeeper had been in on the 23rd and surely would have at least noticed the trophies and tiaras strewn about, let alone a poopy candy box.

And I agree about PW - both of the White's in fact - have more info than they are willing to bring forth. Especially in light of the grand jury news. If they have information that could further this investigation, WHY is it not being brought forth? What could be holding them back?

 

[Darlene733510]

There sure was something going on between the R's and the Whites. PR in some of her statements really thru them under the bus, and so did John. FW did not work, and PR referred him as a stay at home Mom. FW, according to the R's supposedly had something to do with the oil business, yet PW had mentioned that money was tight. PW did not work either, so where did their money come from? That Christmas dinner was not cheap!
PR mentioned that FW would take all the kids out at times, and sometimes would watch the R kids, if they needed someone to watch them.
It seems that Grandpa P had a lot of access to the R kids, as they spent a lot of time at the R's when PR had the cancer treatments. PR also mentioned that the kids would sometimes stay at Gramdpa's apartment when he was in Boulder. That flight on the 24th is suspicious to me.(DP) We know that Grandma P sometimes slept in JB's room. Was it to protect JB?
I am wondering why did the R's changed towards the Whites. Did the Whites know something about DS and JB and BR? Was that what PW wanted to tell PR, and was that why the Stines and the Ramsey's became such GOOD friends? Did JB say something about what was happening, and PW heard it,or perhaps someone else told her something. PR refused to let PW explain what she meant. Was it because PR already knew what it was that PW wanted to tell her?
I am really wondering where FW and PW's income came from. Was the source of that income something the R's used to shut both of them up?

 

[midwest mama]

Darlene-
The White's family money, having come down from the generational oil business probably provided at least a monthly stipend for FW out of some sort of trust created to fund the family with resources over the years. Money might have been "tight" according to a standard of wealth that most of us could never enjoy, but if the White's were only able to access a fixed amount of income annually, they might have had to manage carefully, since, as you say, large holiday gatherings, etc. would have been costly. But also necessary to maintain their "social" niche.

You make a good guess on the PW aspect of knowing something was amiss within the kids' (Ramsey, Stine, White III) "playing doctor" behavior. Could it be that little Fleet fessed up to Mom and Dad about some former sessions with JB, and included the fact that JB might have been OK with them? Patsy was forthright about JB's "flirtatious" behaviors.

 

[UKGuy]

Darlene-
The White's family money, having come down from the generational oil business probably provided at least a monthly stipend for FW out of some sort of trust created to fund the family with resources over the years. Money might have been "tight" according to a standard of wealth that most of us could never enjoy, but if the White's were only able to access a fixed amount of income annually, they might have had to manage carefully, since, as you say, large holiday gatherings, etc. would have been costly. But also necessary to maintain their "social" niche.

You make a good guess on the PW aspect of knowing something was amiss within the kids' (Ramsey, Stine, White III) "playing doctor" behavior. Could it be that little Fleet fessed up to Mom and Dad about some former sessions with JB, and included the fact that JB might have been OK with them? Patsy was forthright about JB's "flirtatious" behaviors.

midwest mama,
Fleet White offers an interesting account when he describes JonBenet's request to wipe her down.


This was likely an sequential process that at points involved PW, so a simple extension surely extends to the Whites recognising that something, e.g. abuse, was taking place in the Ramsey household?

Not an unknown phenomenon, just that those in the know decided to remain silent. Thus cementing the desire to offer no comment?



.

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Fleet White offers an interesting account when he describes JonBenet's request to wipe her down.


This was likely an sequential process that at points involved PW, so a simple extension surely extends to the Whites recognising that something, e.g. abuse, was taking place in the Ramsey household?

Not an unknown phenomenon, just that those in the know decided to remain silent. Thus cementing the desire to offer no comment?



.

I suspect, as you note, both of the White's might have realized JB was suffering from vaginal distress if they had both assisted her in a toileting process. This might have led to them questioning her? And with that perhaps them becoming privy to information about molestation that PW wanted to share with Patsy when she approached her after JB's funeral?

That Patsy shut her down so callously leads me to believe that she already knew more about JB's molestation that she might have even wanted to admit to herself.

 

[UKGuy]

I suspect, as you note, both of the White's might have realized JB was suffering from vaginal distress if they had both assisted her in a toileting process. This might have led to them questioning her? And with that perhaps them becoming privy to information about molestation that PW wanted to share with Patsy when she approached her after JB's funeral?

That Patsy shut her down so callously leads me to believe that she already knew more about JB's molestation that she might have even wanted to admit to herself.

midwest mama,
More than likely. If she did'nt know before JonBenet's death she certainly knew afterwards.

JonBenet might have exhibited other behaviour that the White's have not gone public on. Its a fair bet JonBenet was being abused on a regular basis, with her requests for wiping a symptom of this, along with her bedwetting etc.

I reckon many in Patsy's social circle knew JonBenet was being abused, and they have remained silent all these years. With no court case they are not going to risk any litigation.

Yet some said they were going to talk to Patsy about JonBenet after Christmas.

So something was brewing in the lead up to Christmas. Although it seems the person abusing JonBenet never noticed this and continued to molest her.


.

 

[douce40]

I am fairly convinced this was the issue that precipitated her death. A 6 year old with possible chronic abuse is at some point going to speak up. She wouldn't right away because if it's someone she knew, she would trust them despite how wrong the action being done to her was. If it was a stranger, she probably would have told someone. However a family member may have convinced her not to say anything. Eventually JonBenet would have spoken up as she got older.

There are so many people who bent the rules or gave a pass to this family, just because of their stature, it's sickening. I liked it immensely when Steve Thomas stood up to the Ramsey's on CNN. Whether you agree with the Bedwetting theory or not, everybody should have treated them like regular parents who had a child murdered in their home who showed signs of chronic abuse. Saying terms like "umbrella of suspicion" are just hollow words if you don't make an all out effort to find out more about the possibilty she was abused by a family member.

If anything I wish their was MORE dirty tactics done by LE towards the Ramsey's and their friends, so we can find out more about what they secretly knew about their child. If that family didn't have money/lawyers, everybody would be certain there was some sort of inappropriate behavior going on in that family. It's sad how financial success clouds some peoples judgement.

 

[Nom de plume]

I am fairly convinced this was the issue that precipitated her death. A 6 year old with possible chronic abuse is at some point going to speak up. She wouldn't right away because if it's someone she knew, she would trust them despite how wrong the action being done to her was. If it was a stranger, she probably would have told someone. However a family member may have convinced her not to say anything. Eventually JonBenet would have spoken up as she got older.

There are so many people who bent the rules or gave a pass to this family, just because of their stature, it's sickening. I liked it immensely when Steve Thomas stood up to the Ramsey's on CNN. Whether you agree with the Bedwetting theory or not, everybody should have treated them like regular parents who had a child murdered in their home who showed signs of chronic abuse. Saying terms like "umbrella of suspicion" are just hollow words if you don't make an all out effort to find out more about the possibilty she was abused by a family member.

If anything I wish their was MORE dirty tactics done by LE towards the Ramsey's and their friends, so we can find out more about what they secretly knew about their child. If that family didn't have money/lawyers, everybody would be certain there was some sort of inappropriate behavior going on in that family. It's sad how financial success clouds some peoples judgement.

Very sad, very true, and very well said.

 

[UKGuy]

I am fairly convinced this was the issue that precipitated her death. A 6 year old with possible chronic abuse is at some point going to speak up. She wouldn't right away because if it's someone she knew, she would trust them despite how wrong the action being done to her was. If it was a stranger, she probably would have told someone. However a family member may have convinced her not to say anything. Eventually JonBenet would have spoken up as she got older.

There are so many people who bent the rules or gave a pass to this family, just because of their stature, it's sickening. I liked it immensely when Steve Thomas stood up to the Ramsey's on CNN. Whether you agree with the Bedwetting theory or not, everybody should have treated them like regular parents who had a child murdered in their home who showed signs of chronic abuse. Saying terms like "umbrella of suspicion" are just hollow words if you don't make an all out effort to find out more about the possibilty she was abused by a family member.

If anything I wish their was MORE dirty tactics done by LE towards the Ramsey's and their friends, so we can find out more about what they secretly knew about their child. If that family didn't have money/lawyers, everybody would be certain there was some sort of inappropriate behavior going on in that family. It's sad how financial success clouds some peoples judgement.

douce40,
I reckon you are right here. Lets face it who is going to kill JonBenet because she fell down the stairs and sustained a head injury?

So that suggests the staging has more to do with the sexual abuse than anything else, otherwise why bother?

JonBenet did not seem to have a good Christmas. The R's play all this down of course, but back at their Christmas Party Little Miss Christmas did not feel so pretty, then there is the mystery of the 911 call and why Susan Stine answered the R's own front door and not Patsy?

Fast forward to Christmas Day and JonBenet does not like her new doll, later that morning it was suggested she retired to her bed or her room unwell? Then on bathing and dressing for the White's party, JonBenet and Patsy clash over what JonBenet should wear.

All culminating in JonBenet being sexually assaulted hours later leading directly to her death.

I've always wondered if the timing was a critical factor here, since there seemed to be a noticable degree of tension with JonBenet as she anticipated Christmas.

Could this be because she was coming out of a weekend, the Monday was the 23rd, day of the R's Christmas Party, is this why she never felt pretty, or possibly anxious and tense?

Who knows what transpired between the Friday and the Sunday night?


.

 

[Nom de plume]

douce40,
I reckon you are right here. Lets face it who is going to kill JonBenet because she fell down the stairs and sustained a head injury?

So that suggests the staging has more to do with the sexual abuse than anything else, otherwise why bother?

JonBenet did not seem to have a good Christmas. The R's play all this down of course, but back at their Christmas Party Little Miss Christmas did not feel so pretty, then there is the mystery of the 911 call and why Susan Stine answered the R's own front door and not Patsy?

Fast forward to Christmas Day and JonBenet does not like her new doll, later that morning it was suggested she retired to her bed or her room unwell? Then on bathing and dressing for the White's party, JonBenet and Patsy clash over what JonBenet should wear.

All culminating in JonBenet being sexually assaulted hours later leading directly to her death.

I've always wondered if the timing was a critical factor here, since there seemed to be a noticable degree of tension with JonBenet as she anticipated Christmas.

Could this be because she was coming out of a weekend, the Monday was the 23rd, day of the R's Christmas Party, is this why she never felt pretty, or possibly anxious and tense?

Who knows what transpired between the Friday and the Sunday night?


.

Finally we agree on something!!

So that suggests the staging has more to do with the sexual abuse than anything else, otherwise why bother?

ITA!

JonBenet did not seem to have a good Christmas.

I'd say being killed on Christmas day would not lead to having a good day!

The R's play all this down of course, but back at their Christmas Party Little Miss Christmas did not feel so pretty, then there is the mystery of the 911 call and why Susan Stine answered the R's own front door and not Patsy?

Yep, totally agree here.

All culminating in JonBenet being sexually assaulted hours later leading directly to her death.

Yes

I've always wondered if the timing was a critical factor here, since there seemed to be a noticable degree of tension with JonBenet as she anticipated Christmas.

Could this be because she was coming out of a weekend, the Monday was the 23rd, day of the R's Christmas Party, is this why she never felt pretty, or possibly anxious and tense?

Who knows what transpired between the Friday and the Sunday night?

I do agree here. And who knows what transipred Monday night or Wednesday night? It does seem odd that the only full moon in December between the time she turned 3 and 2002 was between 12/24/96 & 12/26/96.

 

[gramcracker]

I am fairly convinced this was the issue that precipitated her death. A 6 year old with possible chronic abuse is at some point going to speak up. She wouldn't right away because if it's someone she knew, she would trust them despite how wrong the action being done to her was. If it was a stranger, she probably would have told someone. However a family member may have convinced her not to say anything. Eventually JonBenet would have spoken up as she got older.

There are so many people who bent the rules or gave a pass to this family, just because of their stature, it's sickening. I liked it immensely when Steve Thomas stood up to the Ramsey's on CNN. Whether you agree with the Bedwetting theory or not, everybody should have treated them like regular parents who had a child murdered in their home who showed signs of chronic abuse. Saying terms like "umbrella of suspicion" are just hollow words if you don't make an all out effort to find out more about the possibilty she was abused by a family member.

If anything I wish their was MORE dirty tactics done by LE towards the Ramsey's and their friends, so we can find out more about what they secretly knew about their child. If that family didn't have money/lawyers, everybody would be certain there was some sort of inappropriate behavior going on in that family. It's sad how financial success clouds some peoples judgement.

why is that video unavailable? I would think it was some legal angle if both the video and transcript were made to vanish, but the transcript exists. why has the video poofed?

 

[Chrishope]

I am fairly convinced this was the issue that precipitated her death. A 6 year old with possible chronic abuse is at some point going to speak up. She wouldn't right away because if it's someone she knew, she would trust them despite how wrong the action being done to her was. If it was a stranger, she probably would have told someone. However a family member may have convinced her not to say anything. Eventually JonBenet would have spoken up as she got older.

I tend to agree, and yet there is something that won't quite let me accept that fully.

JB probably would speak up eventually. Eventually could be well over a decade. Possibly longer.

Molesters don't usually kill their victims, and in this case we are talking about a father/daughter which, presumably, makes murder even more difficult for the molester?

I tend to think JB, at 6, probably wasn't ready to talk (but who knows?) and that JR probably figured he could handle it if it happened.

If PR didn't already know, would she divorce him or call the police upon finding out? I don't know. I'm not convinced either way, but that's the point - I don't think it's certain that JR would be in legal/marital trouble if JB talked.

Of course it might depend on who she'd talk to. I'm assuming PR would be the most likely confidant.

There are so many people who bent the rules or gave a pass to this family, just because of their stature, it's sickening. I liked it immensely when Steve Thomas stood up to the Ramsey's on CNN. Whether you agree with the Bedwetting theory or not, everybody should have treated them like regular parents who had a child murdered in their home who showed signs of chronic abuse. Saying terms like "umbrella of suspicion" are just hollow words if you don't make an all out effort to find out more about the possibilty she was abused by a family member.

If anything I wish their was MORE dirty tactics done by LE towards the Ramsey's and their friends, so we can find out more about what they secretly knew about their child. If that family didn't have money/lawyers, everybody would be certain there was some sort of inappropriate behavior going on in that family. It's sad how financial success clouds some peoples judgement.

Yes.

 

[midwest mama]

Quote by Nom de plume;9603741 (snipped by me....)

I do agree here. And who knows what transipred Monday night or Wednesday night? It does seem odd that the only full moon in December between the time she turned 3 and 2002 was between 12/24/96 & 12/26/96.

Just a clarification, Nom -- the only time a full moon of December (there's a full moon monthly) occurred over Christmas Holiday between the years of 1977 - 2004, was in 1996, beginning on Christmas Eve at 9:40 pm, which would appear full for 2-3 days.

With a full moon in Boulder the night JB died, if it was a clear night (it was said there was a light snowfall, though) an even greater chance of anyone strange to be noticed lurking around the Ramsey home after dark, since a full moon can be very illuminating.

Also a good reason for one of the R's to fear being seen leaving the house in a vehicle containing a dead body - even with the headlights off.

Just for info: In 1977 it began on Dec 25, and in 2004 on Dec 26.

 

[Nom de plume]

Quote by Nom de plume;9603741 (snipped by me....)



Just a clarification, Nom -- the only time a full moon of December (there's a full moon monthly) occurred over Christmas Holiday between the years of 1977 - 2004, was in 1996, beginning on Christmas Eve at 9:40 pm, which would appear full for 2-3 days.

With a full moon in Boulder the night JB died, if it was a clear night (it was said there was a light snowfall, though) an even greater chance of anyone strange to be noticed lurking around the Ramsey home after dark, since a full moon can be very illuminating.

Also a good reason for one of the R's to fear being seen leaving the house in a vehicle containing a dead body - even with the headlights off.

Just for info: In 1977 it began on Dec 25, and in 2004 on Dec 26.

Thanks MM! That's was I meant, full moon on Christmas, but my fingers got ahead of my brain. :facepalm: I was also messed up on days of the week too! LOL