Who owns the smoke and mirrors?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Holdontoyourhat, Nov 8, 2009.

?

Who owns the smoke and mirrors?

  1. PR and/or JR

    9 vote(s)
    90.0%
  2. RDI

    1 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
























    Crime Scene Item............... Prima Facie Contention......................... RDI Contention
    2nd ligature........................ restraining device ......................................NOT a restraining device
    ligature ............................. strangulation device ..................................NOT a strangulation device
    underwear DNA.................... evidence of an intruder ..............................NOT evidence of an intruder
    ransom note....................... extortion attempt......................................NOT an extortion attempt
    sexual injuries .....................sexual assault ..........................................NOT a sexual assault
    furrow & petechia ................strangled to death ....................................NOT strangled to death
    headbash ...........................deliberate part of murder ...........................NOT deliberate
    touch DNA .........................corroborating evidence ...............................NOT corroborating evidence
    misspelled words .................accidental misspellings ................................NOT accidental misspellings
    cord ..................................owned by intruder .....................................NOT owned by intruder
    foreign faction ....................foreign faction ..........................................NOT foreign faction
    SBTC................................. no data .................................................Saved by the cross, etc.

    PR and/or JR owns the smoke and mirrors: PR and/or JR in less than 8 hours made many of these items look like the work of an intruder

    RDI owns the smoke and mirrors: RDI over years and years has made actual criminal acts by an intruder appear to be the work of PR and/or JR.
     
  2. Loading...


  3. madeleine

    madeleine New Member

    Messages:
    4,970
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Guess we'll never know for sure due to incompetent LE,the most stupid DA people I've ever heard about and the most selfish ignorant parents I've seen.

    I would have liked to be able to say "due to the most perfect killer in history" but....
     
  4. Sophie

    Sophie New Member

    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As opposed to IDI who:

    Ignore the fact that most children are murdered by close family and relatives;
    Ignore the Ramseys' post-murder behaviour and believe the Ramsey story; that JBR was asleep when she got home (despite having been fed pineapple shortly before death and having a different hair arrangement when she was found dead than she had at the Whites' party etc ad infinitum);
    Ignore the fact that there was older damage to the child's vagina indicted by the autopsy;
    Ignore Ramsey fibres being found in criminally suggestive places or else suggest that the killer wore Patsy's and John's clothes while carrying out the crime;
    Ignore the stats that burglaries go up at Christmas generally but down on Christmas day itself while family violence escalates on that day and that is pretty much the case in the Christmas-celebrating world;
    Ignore the fact that three out of four people in that house survived the night without hearing the thundering report of a child getting her head staved in or any of the other events of the night;
    Ignore the fact that the duct tape had been used previously and had been placed on a dead or unconscious child;
    Ignore the fact that there is no evidence of JBR having struggled against restraints so she either had them placed on her when she was already dead or unconscious. Why? The job's already been done.
    Ignore the fact that the RN itself points to three separate motives for killing JBR while the sexual assault points to another;
    Ignore what an intruder would have had to do in an unknown house in complete darkness and complete silence in rather less than eight hours as opposed to what the family could do in their own home in at least eight hours (a full working day).


    And that's without skimming the surface..
     
  5. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well I could say that IDI is safer POV.

    RDI has gotten sued and almost gone to jail. RDI has been questioned by LE. Potential intruders have been questioned by LE. The R's have been questioned by LE.

    IDI is not required to be as contentious with prima facie. In fact, while IDI can prove some of the prima facie contentions, RDI can prove NONE of its own contentions. This should serve as a sign.
     
  6. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Crime Scene Item............... Prima Facie Contention......................... RDI Contention
    foreign faction ....................foreign faction ..........................................NOT foreign faction
    SBTC................................. no data .................................................S aved by the cross, etc.

    For me, this represents a very dangerous circumstance. Prima facie believes it was a foreign faction, and doesn't know what SBTC means. Therefore, neither RDI nor IDI understands the ramifications or significance of JBR's murder. RDI will assume there is no significance or ramifications. That this is an assumption is glaringly obvious.
     
  7. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I have to call BS on this one. Not because of the premise, which I think is worth pursuing. But because I believe it is being presented in an unfair way. It's kind of like listening to the announcing of a boxing match between Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, except that the announcer is Dr. Doom. Spidey's probably not going to get a fair shake.

    I just don't feel like the question is posed fairly. There's a lot (and I do mean a LOT) of oversimplification, and that's just one problem. Just to give some specific examples:

    -I don't know of anyone on any side who has claimed that the ligature did not strangle JB.

    -Most IDIs don't believe it was a foreign faction, and it's not like we RDIs twisted their arms to get them there.

    If it were up to me, I'd let all of this slide if the poll consisted of a third option:

    PR & JR

    RDI

    IDI

    Of course, I could take an equally cheap shot and say that "PR & JR" INCLUDES IDI because IDI are essentially lackeys of the Rs and are doing their bidding, but I won't because we all know that's not the case. So let's not dwell on that.

    I would actually agree with that, on a couple of different levels.

    -There's the things you mentioned (more on that in a moment), not the least of which is falling into the gunsights of the Rs and their million-dollar henchmen. I just LOVE it when someone says that the Rs aren't vindictive. Oh, no? I can think of a few people who might beg to differ on that. But I digress.

    -Your mileage may vary, but to me, there's something less upsetting about an intruder doing it than a parent doing it.

    -The whole world is your playground. You could name ANYONE and who could dispute you?

    The sued part I know about. But I'm a little vague on the "jail" part. If you mean Tom Miller, that just proves my point.

    I suppose one could make the accusation that they don't need to be because it doesn't really matter who did it as much as believing that the Rs did NOT do it. Not that I AM making that accusation, mind you. But it crops up in my mind every so often.

    None? NONE? Oh, really?
     
  8. Sophie

    Sophie New Member

    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The irony is that HOTYH makes much of this stuff much more important than it need be because of the requirements of his own theory. Eg. The knots could speak to an incompetent/friendly intruder as well as to a Ramsey but he's so stuck fast on the combat-trained paramilitary type that he won't allow for them to be inadequate.

    The issue with HOTYH's theory (as opposed to general IDI) is that it will allow of no latitude in anything. Lou Smit admits that the pineapple is a problem but HOTYH claims it's RDI spin. Even the Paugh and Ramsey families saw some similarities between Patsy's handwriting and that of the RN-writer but HOTYH just won't have it. Polly Paugh wondered why John and Patsy didn't talk to police but HOTYH tells us that he would have co-operated even less. The vaginal injuries were facts, as noted in the autopsy. But they have no place in his theory so he just ignores them or treats them as spin.

    None of this is conclusive of anyone's guilt so I really don't know why HOTYH sweats such small stuff.
     
  9. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    RDI has to admit that it goes against the face values of the crime. Most of the items of evidence are contended by RDI to be NOT what they appear. This is called SPIN. RDI has completely spun the original crime scene items into something else because the original crime scene items at face value tell a much different story.

    RDI now adds another contention to prima facie: unknown male DNA, not initially discovered but later reported by worldwide media, is contended to actually be JR + PR DNA mix. Of course there's nothing about this anywhere in the media, and nobody connected to the research can be quoted as saying PR DNA + JR DNA = CODIS DNA.

    RDI continues to be contentious with prima facie, because it HAS to be. And that should be a clue.

    There is no proof of any of RDI's contentions. There is no proof the RN is fake. There's no proof of prior abuse. Instead, there IS proof that JBR was injured THAT NIGHT.

    It is probably better to consider what there IS proof of. There IS proof JBR was strangled that night. THere IS proof she was alive at the time. That the strangler thought she was dead is CONJECTURE.

    If we consider what we have proof of, it can be extrapolated to the rest of the events. If she was strangled while alive, then the most pragmatic view is that her death was no accident. Really, RDI should come up with another scenario where JBR's death was no accident because there's proof it was no accident.
     
  10. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I don't know, HOTYH. There's one instance of prima facie in this case that you won't touch: the fact that JB was strangled from behind. I'll tell you what that tells ME at face value: whoever killed her couldn't bear to look her in the face. I'm very interested in that.

    That's why it's called staging. And it's not just us, either...

    The way we look at it is, we're cutting through the artificial edifice the Rs tried construct. It's not OUR fault that makes them look guilty. Also, speaking purely for myself, I don't appreciate the implication. I don't know of ANYONE on any side who WANTS the Rs to be guilty. Quite the opposite.

    Oh, really? How much time do you have?

    There are a few out there.

    Really? Then where are the scratch marks on her neck? The bites on the inside of her mouth? The bruises from flailing around?

    Agreed, but in a MUCH different way than you're thinking. That's what you have to do with staged scenes. In fact, don't take my word for it. Ask Gregg McCrary:

    "You've got elaborate staging. Where else should you look?"
     
  11. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That JBR was strangled from behind doesn't make the ligature any less of a strangulation device, or make her any less alive while being strangled.

    Besides, normally ligature strangulation is from behind and not from the front, and has nothing to do with the reason you listed.

    JBR strangled from the front or back isn't really a crime scene item anyway. Its more like a conclusion based on some observations.
     
  12. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I'm not saying it DOES, HOTYH.

    It's the weapon of cowards: people who can't look their victims in the eyes. Let me expand on that. Ligature strangulation has another feature that someone close to the victim would find useful. It doesn't make a mess. It adds up.

    It damn well could be.

    Isn't that a big part of profiling?
     
  13. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0


    Responses in blue.

    What is presented as fact is really speculation. Maybe I should give an example of a fact and a conclusion drawn from the fact.

    Fact: JBR had petechial hemmorhaging on her neck.
    Conclusion: She was alive when strangled.

    There is proof that JBR was alive when strangled. That she was 'barely alive' is speculation.
    When we consider that JBR was alive when strangled, accidental death can be safely ruled out.
     
  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    13,263
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    48
    "Irrelevant," my eye!
     
  15. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What happens somewhere else isn't relevant to what happened there. Everybody else in every house in the neighborhood could've abused their kids.

    Doesn't mean they did.
     
  16. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    So the tape was used and since there was perfect lips prints on it shows she didn't wear it being strangled...So the brown tan fibers could very well came from the American Doll then....
     
  17. Sophie

    Sophie New Member

    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sorry, HOTYH, I'm struggling to get further than the remarkable assertion that the fact that most children are murdered by their family is irrelevant. If you view that as irrelevant, then I don't see that you are a reasonable person with whom to debate the issue. This is so obviously a pertinent aspect of this case that it beggars belief that you are calling it irrelevant.


    However, here's a bit more for you:

    IDI ignore the fact that the materials for the RN came from the family home and the note itself included family jokes (eg. 'Fat Cats' and that we had a computer guru and ex-naval man with famed take-charge capabilities (see DoI) and a stellar journalism major in the home who, just days before, had shown her capacity for writing by coming up with verses for some 40 guests at a party and her capacity for extemporising by coming up with extra verses for unexpected guests.

    IDI ignore the fact that JBR was wiped down and redressed, wrapped papoose-like with her favourite nightie close by and, in all probability, placed in new underwear.

    IDI ignore the fact that the Ramseys' clothes were not tested, nor were they searched or questioned when they left the house and that Pam hauled away a carful of materials from the home.

    IDI imagine that asking for 118k from a multi-millionaire is a reasonable attempt at extortion but also expect us to believe that these extortionists would leave their collateral behind and make not a single attempt to extract the money once they had left the house. They see no problem in John claiming that he secured the house and Burke confirming this, then John changing his mind on this subject. Or in a millionaire apparently caring so little for his family that he didn't take minimal precautions to protect them by making sure the doors were locked and that alarms were in place(and in fact repeated the same behaviour to get burgled in Atlanta a few years later).

    IDI don't worry that Patsy suggested that her friends' children were in danger then refused to help police find this killer on the loose for months, and in fact, allowed her own son to go to school, without police protection, a matter of days after the murder.
     
  18. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It doesn't matter that JR's a computer guru because we're not necessarily looking for one. It doesn't matter if PR is a stellar journalism major because we're really not looking for one of those either. There's no way to deduce computer guru or journalist from the ransom note. Thats you're speculation again. The author can't even spell business, what do you mean journalist. This journalist would get fired first day.

    It doesn't matter that the materials for the RN came from the home because an intruder can use these items.

    Most of your post is scuttlebut (hearsay) that ignores the core evidence items. RDI is contentious on practically all the core items of evidence, opposing prima facie explanations at every turn. Its almost as if we're discussing two different cases. RDI has taken years to fabricate a paradigm that attempts to account for all evidence that does not fit by spinning it into something else. Please note that RDI has spun all core evidence items away from prima facie. Anything new that comes up is IDI on the face of it, but is instantly spun to RDI.

    Its so obvious it has become pathetic.

    I am fully convinced that the smoke and mirrors belongs to RDI because I have watched it happen. It happened with underwear DNA (spun to factory worker), misspelled words (spun to deliberate), and now touch DNA (spun to 'mixture of JR and PR DNA').
     
  19. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Really.

    You've no proof of any RDI contention on any of the core evidence items. For example, you've no proof that the 2nd ligature was never used, that the garrote was not used to kill, that the headbash was an accident. No proof of any contention.

    It DOES matter who did it. Thats the whole problem.
     
  20. Ravyn

    Ravyn New Member

    Messages:
    1,040
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    Really, but we are to believe the spin of a SFF....Third party DNA, JonBenet's and parents makes sense...At least cynic came up with a scenario ..Cause we know PR touched the lonjohns by her own words...Then JR was holding her by the waist when carrying her body upstairs...Then pretty sure JonBenet would had touched her clothes....

    And also IDI still have no other evidence of intruders and DNA ok, but that can fail like everything else can't it...

    And you go by the media going IDI....Well if I was handling this case,I sure wouldn't link nothing out and have another circus....But Chief Bekner said they already questioned over a hundred people in this case now I wonder if that the ones with records of sex crimes against children....Get those out of the way first,I guess....
     
  21. Holdontoyourhat

    Holdontoyourhat Former Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    SFF isn't a spin. I didn't add to that or subtract from it. It is what it is.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice