Who put the second pony tail in JBR hair?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by blackcatsarecool, May 26, 2019.

  1. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy: IMO, the overall scene that was supposed to have been accepted by LE is that JB was put to bed, kidnapped from her bed, and the crime was staged to instead turn into a kidnapping gone bad, to account for her then being found dead. No matter which of the Rs tightened the ligature around her neck or caused any of her bodily injuries, there should have been no reason for PR to deny anything related to the forensic evidence that indicates JB was most likely readied for bed, then had a pineapple snack before finally being tucked in. The morning of the crime, appearing to be in near hysterics, and on into the day, she said JB was wearing the Red Turtleneck when she last saw her at bedtime. In order for PR to be completely innocent of the crime, she would have expected JB to still be in the Turtleneck the next time she expected to see her, which should have been when JB was exchanged for the ransom. Yes, we know she was hysterical and medicated (Bueff was called in), but NO reaction to her being found in the white shirt???
     
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  2. Tadpole12

    Tadpole12 Well-Known Member

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    oh, don't dumb it down UK
    Learning new words is okay?
     
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  3. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    midwest mama,
    I'll go along with all of the above except the size-12's the reward explanation is nicely self-confirming.

    Patsy could have phoned Bloomingdales any day of the week and had her card charged for special delivery of another set of size-12's, even JonBenet would understand as they were purchased with Patsy's niece in mind.

    Same applies during the Bloomingdale's visit if JonBenet always gets her way with Patsy then a pack of size-12's could have been purchased there and then for JonBenet.

    JonBenet also has a drawer full of underwear in her bathroom, which Patsy says she visited to fetch the longjohns, so why not select a pair of size-6 underwear at the same time, makes the staging less complex and more believable? Of course whatever Patsy says postmortem regarding JonBenet is highly suspect.

    Looks like Patsy definitely prepared JonBenet for bed, Barbie Nightgown, Red Turtleneck, or Pink Pajama set, is an open question?

    With the Pink Pajama Bottoms missing as are presumably the size-6 underwear, I'll go for JonBenet wearing the Pink Pajama Set, which Patsy replaces with the Red Turtleneck, and the longjohns, as the Pink Pajama Bottoms are forensically contaminated?

    John likely revises Patsy's staging, vetoes the Red Turtleneck and mandates the White Gap Top Scenario?

    Thats a PDI, but I cannot explain away the Pink Barbie Nightgown unless it was simply a stage enroute to the White Gap Top?

    BDI can explain the Pink Barbie Nightgown as what replaced the Pink Pajama Bottoms along with the longjohns and size-12's?

    An alternative is that Patsy prepared JonBenet for bed wearing the Pink Barbie Nightgown, but this leaves the Pink Pajama Bottoms needing a resolution?

    .
     
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  4. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

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    o_O 20+ years later, after a million $+ of investigation, a Grand Jury deliberation, and serious media involvement, we all still go around in circles and weave in and out of theories about this case. :(

    In the meantime, SOMEONE FROM THAT FAMILY HAS THE ANSWERS, and they do diddly squat. :mad:
     
  5. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

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    What if....PR put JB to bed in the Red Turtleneck and Pink Bottoms over size 6, as you suggest. Sometime later, JB awakens having wet herself, and goes to brother Burke for consolation and help in changing. She and Burke choose the Barbie Nightgown and size 12s from the fresh undie package in her drawer that PR said she put there. 12s are too baggy, so they add the longjohns over them..one thing leading to the next in sexual exploration of JB by BR, which ends in a horrendous fight followed by vaginal assault, at which time she screams before being knocked unconscious. JR runs to find her, as he claimed to be awake reading for a bit after Patsy retired for the night. JR sends BR to his room, scoops up JB yelling for PR, and they take her to the basement to assess the whole thing, horrified, keeping house lights off along the way so as not to seem odd to neighbors. They are expecting her to awaken, as they clean her up. But after some time, the plan is hatched to stage the kidnapping, to buy them time to get out of the Michigan flight, let JB come around fully, deal with both kids, and keep all their dysfunction secretly contained once again. JR does most of the 3rd round of redressing, replacing the bloodied Barbie Nightgown (from fight injuries) with the Gap Shirt, just pulling back up the 12s and longjohns, wrapping her in her blanket to keep her warm. He and PR collaborate on the RN. Both of them are shaken to the core. JR goes to the shower and spends time composing himself. PR makes a final check on JB, and adds the ligatures as final staging for the kidnapping gone bad scenario, then goes to make the 911 call, assuming the police will find her in the house. THEN they can rush her into the hospital, totally covering up for Burkes actions. But PR doesn't realize the ligature has been tightened too much and will lead to her death. All else falls into place.
     
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  6. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, this makes no sense. Sorry. Your son does a stupid thing, you scoop up your daughter and rush to the ER.

    My theory is that PR did kill JBR, and did this whole bizarre display. And actually, no official ever saw the set up, because JB brought JBR upstairs after finding her. He stayed with the coverup because of guilt.
     
  7. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    midwest mama,

    It could have played out like that. Lets review what we think we know?

    0. Patsy dressed JonBenet's hair on Christmas Night to avoid any tangles by adding a second ponytail so allowing easy management the next day?

    1. JonBenet wore the Pink Pajama Set on Christmas Eve, so was available Christmas Night.

    2. The Pink Pajama Bottoms are missing presumably because they were forensically contaminated suggesting they were worn on Christmas Night?

    3. (2.), i.e. contamination, is the reason JonBenet was redressed in the size-12's and longjohns?

    4. Both the size-12's and the Barbie Nightgown are bloodstained.

    5. (4.) suggests the size-12's and Barbie Nightgown were in contact either directly or indirectly, i.e. they shared a similar time frame?

    6. (5.) allows the assumption that Jonbenet was wiped down with the Barbie Nightgown as the bloodstains are on the front, not inside on the lower back?

    7. (2.) Assumes the size-12's need the longjohns to hold them up, otherwise they will just fall down?

    8. The Barbie Nightgown may have become redundant due to (7.)?

    Alternatively we could have all the above except the Barbie Nightgown precedes the longjohns and size-12's as staging?

    BDI assumes Patsy would only need to dress JonBenet in the White Gap Top, and that she is covering for BR when she says she dressed JonBenet in the size-12's and longjohns, despite a wardrobe of pajama sets, nightgowns and underwear to select from, in any PDI she is intending to portray JonBenet's appearance as domestically normal, this was not undertaken!

    So it boils down to who was most likely to dress JonBenet in longjohns and size-12's thinking this would represent sufficient staging?

    It might be JR playing smoke and mirrors a favorite tactic of his, or it could be BR since only a child might consider such amateurish staging as good enough?

    If the case were JDI then JR would have the same motivation as Patsy to stage JonBenet looking domestically normal, it appears as if Burke thought longjohns (his) and the size-12's, which he knew about as he says he opened the gifts on Christmas Day Afternoon and also told Dr. Phil he went back downstairs once everyone else was in bed, were enough to cover his tracks, including the magic Day Of The Week:Wednesday, either parent would know for staging purposes any Day Of The Week size-6's would do as JonBenet could not read !

    .
     
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  8. midwest mama

    midwest mama Well-Known Member

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    Your opinions and ideas, based on what we know, are every bit as valid as any. Maybe one day, we will have some new evidence come forth and there will be a way to get this case solved.

    Realistically, no matter which way I try to form a theory, the only conclusion I can come to that I feel cannot be compromised, is that it's RDI. And NO CHILD should EVER die by the hand of a family member. It's beyond infuriating.
     
  9. Veronica Lodge

    Veronica Lodge Member

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    Hmmm, but what if John is trying to hide the sexual abuse from Patsy? If he's downstairs with JonBenet, he will be grabbing the size 12's as they are handy in the gift wrapping area and a pair of long-johns which happened to be hanging nearby, rather than go back up past Patsy as she is kept busy writing the ransom note (maybe that's why it's so long - John needed to keep her out of the way?).

    Burke admitting on Dr Phil that he snuck downstairs whilst everyone was 'kinda in bed' was a big slip, and I just don't think John would have let that through to the keeper if BDI. But, see, it works in John's favour because he's so innocent and slept through the night so yeah, Burke, by all means shine that spotlight on yourself son.

    My next bit is hard to type :(.... if JonBenet was abused whilst she was facing away from her attacker, blood could well get on the front of the nightgown. Given the head blow came from behind, I think it's feasible that she was sexually abused from behind. So if JonBenet screamed out, she gets hit, perhaps harder then intended, (with the torch which is to hand and had been used previously to sneak around the house). Then what? Patsy comes flying in from where ever the heck she's been and John's just at that moment yelling at Burke to get to bed now, and not come out until morning. John's so hyped and cold-devil angry that Patsy believes him when he's all 'look what that boy's done now...' etc. and she is led to believe it was Burke that hit JonBenet. (Ok so Burke goes to bed scared and weirded out by his parents and basically hides out until he can't stand it anymore in the early morning, and goes downstairs to ask what's going on, and "What DID you find?".)

    So Burke's out of the way, Patsy is convinced to do as she's told (stop sniveling and write a ransom note...) and John begins his coverup. He knows there's sexual abuse he has to hide from the authorities, and his wife. Would he have known the extent of the hymen erosion if Burke was the abuser? I think not. It's possible John might be aware if John Andrew was the abuser maybe? but I don't think that if John were innocent, and one of his son's was abusing JonBenet, that he could forgive and act like they aren't disgusting humans.
    John's not afraid to use Patsy's paint supplies, nor Burke's train tracks in the scene. Self-preservation was his priority at that point and onwards. He changes things around a bit and continues to tweak things as his plan forms, and after a nice hot shower he's back in control enough to tell Patsy to call the police - oh but run up and down the stairs a few times first so you sound genuine (this is when she runs into Burke's room). The phone call is made, Burke is told to stay in his room, and John is in control.

    *This is all a theory and I could be well off track - I do keep swinging from JDI to BDI, but the more I learn about John the less I like the man. I try to keep emotions out and look at things logically, but it's not easy when just looking at his photo gives me the creeps.
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Veronica Lodge,
    Dressing JonBenet in bloodstained size-12's and using Burke's longjohns to hold the size-12's up is going to signal to Patsy that something is wrong bigtime.

    Whichever parent dressed and staged JonBenet for whatever reason are surely going to try and have JonBenet dressed as normally as possible, remember JonBenet had lots and lots of outfits, pajama sets, nightgowns, and numerous pairs of size-6 underwear, neither parent elected to match JonBenet's clothing to their version of events?

    It has been alleged that John wiped JonBenet down as fibers from his Israeli manufactured shirt were found on JonBenet's pubic area.

    Fibers for Patsy's sweater are embedded into the knotting of the ligature. So both parents are implicated in the wine-cellar staging, the question is who were they staging for?

    It might be Patsy is assisting John, that she was well aware of what was going, her personal relationship with John had deteriorated, so maybe John was looking elsewhere?

    Burke's visit downstairs might be required to account for forensic evidence that links him to the basement. Remember John does Burke a favor by saying he took the flashlight upstairs, but he never said how it arrived back downstairs!

    How the blood gets onto the front of the Barbie Nightgown is a mystery as you might expect it to be on the inside back or front depending on your assault scenario.

    Either he or Patsy would have known if they looked when JonBenet was being cleaned up and wiped down, if you are going to stage it helps to know what you are trying to hide, regardless if you are responsible.

    IMO the case is either BDI or JDI, with BDI winning out in evidential terms, but there is no smoking gun, might be the case is JDI and JonBenet was deliberately redressed in size-12's and Burke's longjohns to create confusion?

    Remember John told Lou Smit that Patsy did not know about the Gifts in the wine-cellar, then later on Patsy says she not only knew but she opened those gifts herself, then Burke says he opened them on Christmas Day Afternoon, so you can see here all three Ransey's have a different version of events, why?

    .
     
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  11. Veronica Lodge

    Veronica Lodge Member

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    UKGuy, thankyou, I really do look forward to your input. I like that you respectfully point out the shaky parts to my theory. Very gentlemanly. Ok, so with the nightgown, she may have had it removed and may have ended up laying on it perhaps? especially if it was a comfort thing for her that she liked to hang on to or stroke to soothe herself with. I don't think it was used to wipe her, I think it just ended up being involved as she herself had carried it downstairs.

    With the size 12's, I do think they were put on her as the packet was in the vicinity and handy to John. I tend to think if it was BDI, then he wouldn't have bothered with undies at all. He may have put the longjohns on her, but I actually think he would have just left her with maybe a blanket around her bottom half. I think John wasn't necessarily planning on Patsy seeing what underpants JonBenet was found in, it was more just to buy him time if she did or she questioned him about what she was wearing. ie. John's kept it neat by being able to say "Tell the police exactly what she was wearing, Wednesday underpants...". So if a meddling Patsy pulled the longjohns enough to see the top of them, she would see 'Wednesday' and move on? In John's mind i mean? Gah.. I know what I mean to say but maybe I'm making no sense! :p

    The gifts are a bit like the broken window. Burke helped John with that story too, which is all a bit weird. Perhaps Burke did tear into a couple of the gifts earlier that day. Patsy might be covering for Burke because John fooled her into thinking Burke was involved, so she makes a story to keep Burke out of the wine cellar at all costs. Maybe he was just being a kid though and was innocently in their earlier, sneaking a peek at his gifts, leaving a shoe print and going about his day. Then later things turned ugly and unfortunately he'd left a few false clues which just muddy the waters, so to speak.

    Unfortunately I have to go away for awhile now, but hopefully I won't be too long and I will still keep a keen eye for your reply UKGuy, and anyone else ofcourse :)
     
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  12. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Veronica Lodge,
    June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane
    Ckeck how Lou Smit leads John with neat cues about Patsy.

    Bottom line here is the gifts were for Burke, both parents already knew, even by size alone, which gifts were for Burke, so the obvious candidate for opening them is Burke, with John trying to cover for Patsy and Patsy trying to cover for Burke?

    If the case is PDI why did Patsy not place the remaining size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer? The Wednesday Day of the Week only matters to the stager since any other size-6 Day of The Week pair would be fine as JonBenet could not read the Days of The Week.

    John would have enough sense not to dress JonBenet in the size-12's, no underwear at all would be fine as JonBenet was a victim of a sexual assault, note: Digital Penetration is classified as rape.

    There is blood everywhere, on the size-12's, on JonBenet's inner thighs, on the Barbie Nightgown, no doubt also on the underwear she wore to the White's, so why should Wednesday on a pair of Patsy's niece's underwear reassure Patsy everything was OK?

    Only Burke, John or Patsy would select a Wednesday pair of Bloomingdales as JonBenet could not read, also if it had been JonBenet why not select a Thursday pair as that would match the next day's dress schedule?

    So for staging purposes both parents would know that a replacement Wednesday pair is irrelevant as nobody would know what JonBenet wore to bed, so any Day Of The Week size-6 underwear would be sufficient.

    Point being the Wednesday Day Of The Week feature mattered only to the stager, but note crucially the stager did not match the size of the underwear, i.e. size-12, to that which was removed, i.e. size-6. Not very clever eh, why the inconsistency? Also why would an intruder bother about Days Of The Week, or even know where there was underwear available to hand?

    If the Barbie Nightgown was not used to wipe JonBenet down then might be she was laid on it as she was being cleaned up, where it was used as a forensic barrier, then tossed into the wine-cellar out of sight?

    Only Burke would dress JonBenet in those size-12's, not recognizing that the size factor is bigger red flag than the Day Of The Week feature. Both parents knew that the Day Of The Week feature could be explained away as a matter of accidental choice.

    If Patsy put Burke's longjohns on JonBenet thereby implicating Burke in his sisters death, why did she not just remove the bloodstained size-12's and dress her in any pair of size-6 underwear from her drawer in the same room that she says she fetched the longjohns?

    Instead JonBenet was left in the bloodstained size-12's, wiped down according to Coroner Meyer, all suggesting only one pair of underwear was ever used, in distinction to any role the Barbie Nightgown, Red Turtleneck, and White Gap Top might have played?

    Patsy was evidently staging to assist either Burke directly or John indirectly where the size-12's and longjohns are intended as a confusion factor.

    .
     
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  13. MURDERER_SERVANT

    MURDERER_SERVANT Member

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    Excellent post VL.. this is my thoughts lately. I think B hinted some messages in his Dr P interview. His sneaking downstairs when everyone was kinda in bed was one of them. And secondly he placed the flashlight to JR's hands .
    Maybe he heard or saw something downstairs and was bundled off to his room by JR with the torch.

    I think JR some time in the morning or later told PR that it was not B and an intruder had broken in, but P was already in the cover up writing the RN and she had to go on with J's version of events.
     
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  14. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    By all accounts, Pasty was a messy person. Even her mother used to complain that the housekeeper spent too much time having to pick up after the family rather than clean. Patsy was hurriedly packing for a plane ride to Charelvoix, a trip she didn't want to take, so JB's room was likely even messier than usual. We'll never know what JB did in those moments leading up to her death. But the things thought to be "hair ties" on her floor were in fact, little stretchy loops from her potholder kit, the red frame of which can be seen in the photos.
     
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  15. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are right. The Grand Jury had the answers too. But Colorado law prevented them from revealing them. Kolar's book put the nail in the coffin for this investigation at least for me. It can NEVER be revealed what really happened because one of those involved was under 10.
     
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  16. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. Not if your daughter appeared dead and there was blood all over her upper thighs and pubic area (found to have been "wiped away by a cloth") and you were concerned evidence of whatever trauma caused that bleeding might be discovered One of the forensic specialists studying the case said that had the child been brought to a hospital the father would have been arrested. Not meaning he would have been the molester, but presumed so until evidence proved otherwise.
     
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  17. DeeDee249

    DeeDee249 Well-Known Member

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    IMO, JB was simply left in the white shirt. As it was a cotton sweatshirt, it would gave been comfortable to sleep in. Patsy also claimed she couldn't find the pink PJ bottoms (the pink PJ top is visible in the photos on her bed) and grabbed the long johns because they were handy. Patsy admitted having an argument with JB about what she wore to the party, with Patsy wearing a red sweater and black pants and wanting JB to wear the red turtleneck with her black pants so they would match (very Patsy). But JB insisted on the new white sweatshirt, so Patsy said in an interview she relented. Crime photos of the party prove she wore the white shirt. I believe JB may have fallen asleep in the car (all good liars inject elements of truth into their story to make it more believable) but I believe BR was telling the truth when he said she walked into the house ahead of him. I think she woke up (or was awoken) when they got home. Like most kids in that situation, cranky and sleepy, it would have been easier to just leave the shirt she was wearing on her- a shirt is more cumbersome to remove and change on a sleepy child, and simply pulled off her socks, shoes, pants, vest.
     
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  18. mickey2942

    mickey2942 Well-Known Member

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    That theory only applies, if BDI. And the parents decided to cover for him.
     
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  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    ITA. JR would have been arrested on suspicion of sexual assault and interviewed along this line.

    This would have happened regardless of any member's favorite theory, BDI, JDI, PDI, etc. Also given the nature of the homicide, JR was always going to be the prime suspect, he will have realized this once JonBenet had been asphyxiated, so as the saying goes he had skin in the game.
     
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  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    DeeDee249,
    Well, given what you now know about Patsy, e.g. GJ Counts, etc. Do you really believe everything that comes out of her mouth?

    If BR is telling the truth then JonBenet was wide awake, not asleep ready for bed!

    Then there is the pineapple you need to be wide awake to consume it.

    Then there is the second ponytail, something not required if JonBenet is just being placed straight to bed?

    Is this because either John or Burke had removed them along with the bloodstained size-6 underwear?

    Really, drawers full of pajamas, size-6 underwear and nightgowns and Patsy says she went for an old pair of Burke's longjohns?

    IMO Patsy is either deliberately injecting Burke into the case or she is covering for Burke as he allegedly redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and longjohns.

    If Patsy had left a deceased JonBenet in her bed there would be little forensic evidence to link her to the death of her daughter.

    Patsy's contribution to the wine-cellar staging has not helped stage her out of the case which is any stager's intention!

    IMO Patsy was staging for John or Burke.

    .
     
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