Why did the Grand Jury not indict the Ramseys?

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Roy23, Aug 21, 2009.

  1. David Rogers

    David Rogers Well-Known Member

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    Since we know the Ramseys lawyers were called before the 911 call was placed, it is possible they had input into the staging to make it confusing. By linking Burke to the crime scene it gives the adults an out. He can’t be convicted and the adults walk. I wonder what time the lawyers were called?
     
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  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    David Rogers,
    Its difficult to know when the Ramseys lawyers were called. Its reported Fleet White had a visit from Private Investigators on his doorstep the afternoon of the 911 call?

    Yes, those that think BDI is nonsense and the case is either JDI or PDI or some combination, should really say Yeah, the case really looks like its BDI, but you know thats because its FAKE, i.e the parents staged BDI.

    IMO if the parents phoned for legal advice before dialling 911 and decided to mess up the crime-scene by linking Burke, why is there no smoking gun, why leave the parents on the hook?

    Suggesting Patsy or John was mentally deranged during the staging process can also account for a staged BDI, i.e. BDI by accident.

    On the basis the parents received legal advice before dialling 911 then this should really rule out BDI and PDI, as not only are they common-sense outliers, but JDI has the least forensic evidence, which is what you might expect if the case were JDI?

    Then there is JR's close tracking and direct involvement in the case over the years including revising his version of events many times including his use of the flashlight on Christmas Night, see Burke's Dr.Phil Interview.

    Yet, messing up the case using Patsy's niece's size-12 underwear was big mistake, a red flag that pointed to a family member!

    .
     
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  3. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

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    If you were Patsy trying to convey to the detectives that you spent the least amount of time in contact with her daughter, which scenario would best fit that?

    a. Remove pants. Put on another pair of pants.
    b. Remove pants. Remove top. Put on nightgown.
    c. Remove pants. Put on another pair of pants. Remove top. Put on another top.

    My guess is that Patsy got what she thought she needed and brought those items to the basement. Then she realized she forgot to get another pair of underwear, but doesn't want to risk going back upstairs at this time. And why risk having Burke being alerted that the washer and dryer were running when everyone is supposed to be sleeping?

    Just because the long johns were Burke's doesn't mean that they fit him anymore and they were probably handed down to JonBenet.
     
  4. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    icedtea4me,
    None of the above.

    d. Remove pants. Place JonBenet in bed.

    Yet Patsy does not seem concerned about going downstairs, and she also has to return upstairs herself, any risk?

    Patsy could have fetched the underwear at the same time she sourced Burke's long johns. Presumably JonBenet was naked from the waist down, i.e. consider the vaginal trauma.

    Sure, alike the fecally stained pajama bottoms left on JonBenet's bedroom floor, nobody is remarking on their color or who they belonged to, other than a brief reference to them being far too large for JonBenet. The point being nobody is disconfirming any speculation with actual fact, suggesting both the long johns and pajamas matter and are relevant, i.e. were the pajamas blue?

    Neither BPD or the Ramsey's have stated Burke's long johns were handed down. Why would Patsy not opt directly for any pair of pajama bottoms out JonBenet's bedtime attire drawer? Patsy has stated she could not find the pink pajama bottoms worn by JonBenet the night before, i.e. pajama bottoms are missing.

    Still everything you suggest might be the case and Patsy was working through the staging issues in a panic, so had to go back for underwear and just thought the long johns would do.

    Yet she is deliberately staging a crime-scene, she is trying to obsfucate the forensic evidence yet ends up adding more of her own to the crime-scene, e.g. fibers in the ligature knotting and on the sticky side of the duct-tape, she then links Burke Ramsey to the crime-scene via his long johns and the Pink Barbie Nightgown bloodstained with JonBenet's blood and containing Burke Ramsey's touch dna.

    So the outcome irrespective of whatever RDI is on the table is that Patsy and Burke are strongly linked to the wine-cellar crime-scene.

    Which appears to contradict the apparent purpose of enacting the staging in the first place?


    All of the above neglects the motive for Patsy using her niece's size-12 Bloomingdales underwear?

    .
     
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Well-Known Member

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    @UKGuy

    @icedtea4me's hypothesis makes sense here imo:
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  6. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    rashomon,
    Sure, but that view is untestable and unprovable, it might be true, but in the context of our discussion it appears ad hoc.

    Do you know from which location in the house the size-12's were sourced from, I've seen Patsy's bedroom, and the basement cited?

    If Patsy did fetch the size-12's by going back upstairs, assuming she was working alone on the staging, who removed the remaining size-12's?

    It's likely JonBenet was redressed upstairs not downstairs in the basement.

    Why is the Pink Barbie Nightgown stained with JonBenet's blood but not much else other than her underwear?

    The wine-cellar is really a secondary, staged crime-scene, it might even be further removed as a crime-scene if John Ramsey moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar after Fleet White looked in and saw nothing unusual?

    Even more consistent might be a PDI where John revises Patsy's earlier staging by redressing JonBenet in the size-12's?

    .
     
  7. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

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    Wasn’t JB blood found on the size 12’s. When do you suppose JR redressed Jonbenet and why?
     
  8. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade.
    Yes, I cited the blood on her underwear.

    OK, regardless of which RDI theory you support, its important to consider if the the above mentioned bloodstains arrived at different points in time?

    Why does this matter, because another bloodstain containing JonBenet's blood was found deposited on her pillowcase located in her bedroom.

    We can speculate that the three bloodstains arrived in the same time frame, or do they represent separate events in space and time?

    So off the top of my head JR redresses JonBenet after Patsy asphyxiates her, i.e. Patsy tells JR where to find the size-12's, JonBenet might have been wearing the Pink Nightgown to bed, and as JR wipes JonBenet down, he splashes some blood onto the Pink Nightgown, as he does all this he leaves fibers from his shirt on JonBenet's genital region.

    In another time frame JonBenet's blood is deposited onto the Pink Nightgown as a consequence of her being assaulted. Her assailant staged her lying in her bed with her head propped upon her pillow, doing this transferred blood onto her pillowcase?

    Patsy was asked in interview if JonBenet had recent nosebleeds, Patsy said no.

    This question is another way of saying JonBenet was patently assaulted in her bedroom, although speculative, that JonBenet did bleed this lends itself to a bedroom assault being likely?

    Another perspective is if the Pink Nightgown is accidental artifact, how come it has JonBenet's blood deposited on it, remember all those references to static cling?

    So for the PDI proponents, it could be that John Ramsey tweaked both the forensic evidence and the crime-scene, e.g. wine-cellar, to assist Patsy by staging a kidnapping, whereas Patsy had fabricated an Intruder assault scenario?

    If the case is JDI, how does John know where-abouts of the size-12's, and does he just ignore that they are too large for JonBenet?

    .
     
  9. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy,
    Okay, considering the three artifacts you have listed containing Jonbenet’s blood; let’s review.
    Her Barbie nightgown contained five markers of blood splatter down the front of it. It was found at the top of the white blanket in the wine cellar:
    upload_2020-11-1_9-37-37.jpeg

    There were two pillows: one was found on the breakfast bar and another on the foot of Jonbenet’s bed. I still wonder what was found behind the headboard and the wall on the left hand side of her bed. It was the Beauty and the beast pattern. The bed shirt and comforter were not made from this pattern. Here is the pillow on the breakfast bar:
    upload_2020-11-1_10-13-3.jpeg
    I understand the blood reference came from Haney questioning PR about JB and nosebleeds and PR stating she saw no blood on the tie backs. This is probably IMO why it is speculated the original attack on JB happened in her bedroom.
    As for the blood found on size 12, it is obvious that she was redressed in the staging area (where she died) in the basement outside the wine cellar. It would make since that after she was wiped down (JR fiber evidence) she was then redressed in the bloomies since her blood found on them.
    There was also a smear of blood found on her white gap top. This to me would indicate she was dressed in this after the head blow that caused the bleeding on her nightgown and pillowcase.
     
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,
    BBM: Why is it obvious, please list the evidence?

    BBM: Head blow caused the bleeding, do you have a reference for this claim?

    .
     
  11. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy,
    IMO JB was redressed in the size 12’s after she was sexually assaulted. There were shards from the paint brush found on the carpet there. Are you suggesting that perhaps there was another episode of digital penetration in her bedroom prior to this?


    What else would have caused her to expel blood enough to cover the length of the front of her night gown? Do you believe all the blood came from the digital penetration from the paint brush and perhaps her pillow and nightgown were placed underneath her? What is your opinion?
     
  12. Angiebrads

    Angiebrads New Member

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    The nightgown wasn’t covered in blood. It had some drops of blood. She didn’t bleed out from the head wound so the blood must be from the sexual assault is what I’m thinking.
     
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  13. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,
    JonBenet need not have been redressed in the size-12's downstairs in the basement, consider how she was wiped down and the size-12's pulled up?

    Is it definitely blood, anyone have a confirming source?

    There was a blood stain on the Beauty and the Beast pillow. This is a separate pillow from the one downstairs in the breakfast bar and another pillow on her bedroom floor.

    In one of the crime scene videos you can see an open drawer under Jonbenet's bathroom sink.

    Patsy confirmed in her 1997 police interview that this is where the barbie nightgown was kept:
    Consider Patsy stated in interview that she fetched Burke Ramsey's long johns from one of these drawers, so why not her Barbie Nightgown?

    Any blood would be related to her sexual assault, it is possible that the nightgown was used to wipe JonBenet down?

    Patsy's touch-dna on the Barbie Nightgown can be explained away as arriving when she folded the nightgown for storage, etc. Any such link to Burke Ramsey cannot given that it was found in the wine-cellar, suggesting close contact prior to her death, e.g. bed sharing?

    If you add in the bloodstain on the Beauty and the Beast pillow and that the Barbie Nightgown would have been sourced from JonBenet's bathroom drawer, it's difficult to disregard the possibility that the forensic samples arrived at the same point when JonBenet was assaulted?

    .
     
  14. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy,
    Thank you. That is some serious brass tacks there.

    Off topic do you believe JR was involved the construction of the RN?
     
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,
    Yes, he likely read over a draft and suggested changes, etc.

    I think the kidnapping scenario was JR's idea, he was probably amending either Patsy's or/and Burke's prior staging?

    Also JonBenet may not have been placed in the wine-cellar she may have been elsewhere in the house. John Ramsey may have moved JonBenet into the wine-cellar later that morning, i.e. after Fleet White had looked in, unknown to John Ramsey.

    So your name is Patsy Ramsey, your the wife of a multi-millionaire, your daughter has an extensive wardrobe of clothes.

    When it comes to staging her daughter's crime-scene, she elects to dress her deceased daughter in her son's long underwear complete with urinal opening at the front and her niece's size-12 underwear which would have fallen down via gravity they were so large.

    There is no way JonBenet was wearing both the size-12's and the Barbie Nightgown when killed as the size-12's would never function as underwear.

    It might be Burke's long johns were used to hold the size-12's up, which begs the question, just who would ever choose the size-12's as staging?

    .
     
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  16. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy,
    This post was great and to the point. Somebody was definitely a movie buff. Either JR, PR or both. That’s why I asked if you felt he was involved in writing the RN. Also he never read the RN; at least, ungloved. That just doesn’t add up unless he was guilty of participation.

    I’ve often wondered if JB wasn’t kept elsewhere in the house prior to discovery. JR headed straight to her body when it seemed all else had failed (denying of burial). And it is rather fishy that he disappeared for over an hour that morning.

    In order for JB to have worn the Barbie nightgown when killed she would have voided on it. Also, great point about PR. She obviously wasn’t the dresser.
     
  17. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,
    JR was the movie buff. He had posters stored in the basement. Use a search engine for the titles.

    Sure JR read the RN, which father would not? The one that read the third draft and said yeah go for it

    Everyone thinking about what to include in a RDI has a choice, believe Fleet White or accept John Ramsey's miraculous eyesight improvement when finding JonBenet?

    Until its refuted I reckon accepting Fleet's White's testimony is better than John Ramsey's as we know he is capable of misrepresenting the facts.

    So did JonBenet wear the Barbie Nightgown prior to being killed, or as part of a prior staging?

    Consider how the Ramsey's had to amend their true version of events to that of Patsy redressing JonBenet for bed, why?

    IMO Patsy is covering for another Ramsey, could be either John or Burke?

    IMO All the redressing took place upstairs in JonBenet's bedroom, consider all the drawers open in JonBenet's bathroom, clothing all over the floor, etc.

    Nobody talks about JonBenet's missing pajama bottoms, i.e. the ones worn on Christmas Eve, or her size-6 underwear, i.e. worn to the White's Christmas Party, where did it all go?

    .
     
  18. Rain on my Parade

    Rain on my Parade Well-Known Member

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    UKGuy,
    Thank you I have done a search engine on the movies. The movie that really piqued my interest was ‘Somewhere in time’. It is a romance. I don’t see JR interested in the least in this movie.

    I don’t think John just read the third draft. He helped in the construction of it. Otherwise where did all the movies referenced come from? One interesting fact: “On the night JB was murdered, the movie 'Nick of Time' aired at 7:30 P.M. on a Boulder cable channel. ...Bill Cox, who was staying with Fleet and Priscilla White, told the police he remembered watching the movie that night." (Schiller 1999:225) The story centers on an unarmed political faction that kidnaps a six-year-old girl." (Schiller 1999:225
    *quotes from Nick of Time: “You talk to a cop; you even look at a cop too long and your daughter’s dead … I’ll kill her myself. Cut the head off right in front of you.” (The killer says this to Watson.) “I need you to listen to me carefully. Three lives depend on it … Very carefully.”

    Yes, I will agree with you here. JR couldn’t even fly because his eyesight was so bad. He had to be piloted.

    As you stated, “ Since BR touch DNA was discovered on the nightgown, it must have gotten there via shared beds.” So, you tell me. I’m not sure what she was dressed in. Except she was obviously staged in BR long Johns and Jennie’s bloomies. Although I do wonder what part the red turtleneck sweater played in the scenario. And exactly how those blood droplets appeared down the front of the nightgown? Perhaps it is as you stated, “she was wiped down with it.” Yet, if this is a given, what was the source of the blue fibers? We know the source of the black fibers.

    Why would PR cover for JR IYO? I can see PR finding JR molesting JB and went to hit him with the flashlight but instead struck JB. But according to the autopsy that didn’t happen for another hour and a half to 2 hours.

    So, the attack upon JB started in her bedroom. Nobody talks about JB missing pink pajama bottoms or her size-6 underwear worn to the Whites’s Christmas party for several reasons. 1) There are mounds of evidence located in a locker in this case and perhaps the pajama bottoms could be there or perhaps they went missing along with the duct tape and remainder of ligature cord. 2)How do we know exactly what underwear JB was wearing to the White’s Christmas party? Obviously not the size 12 bloomies.
     
  19. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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    Rain on my Parade,,
    Could be Patsy or John had already seen Nick of Time so were aware of those quotes? Definitely someone with an interest in movies, just think about all those Shirley Temple Tapes, were they all VHS? The grammatical aspect is that their insertion reflects the use of stereotype to affect mood in the reader, guess who had the smarts for that?

    You have to work backwards from the long johns and size-12's to a point where JonBenet might have worn the Barbie Nightgown.

    Now one clue is that her pink pajama bottoms are missing, I assume by design, so you can reach the starting point when JonBenet was wearing exactly what she wore on Christmas Eve?

    So somewhere inbetween JonBenet came in contact with the Pink Barbie Nightgown either by being dressed in or it being used to wipe her down or act as a forensic buffer?

    So a staging timeline might be:

    1. JonBenet is wearing Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear and the Pink Pajama Bottoms.

    2. JonBenet is wearing Bloomingdale's size-12 underwear and the Pink Barbie Nightgown

    3. JonBenet is wearing Bloomingdale's size-12 underwear and Burke Ramsey's long johns.

    Here is some speculation for JonBenet afficionados: in staging scenario 2. because the size-12's were falling down Patsy decided to redress JonBenet in Burke Ramsey's long johns? The falling down feature was not noticeable as long as JonBenet was lying down and motionless?

    The red turtleneck might have been Patsy's panicked first choice as a top, but it was later changed to the Gap Top to match the Ramsey Version of Events?

    Source for the droplets being blood please? AFAIK the only source for blood was JonBenet's internal injury. So the two events must have taken place together, i.e. coterminous, gotta get the latin in.

    Maybe that never happened, could be Patsy was aware that JonBenet was being abused, might be she was colluding with JR for a nice quiet emotional life, consider LHP's remarks regarding JR's appetite and Patsy's disgust? Being whacked on the head might represent a failed staging event using the flashlight and the time-interval simply a reflection of how long it took for them to decide We gotta whack her?

    Agreed not the Bloomingdale's size-12 underwear. So take a deep breath and assume you are JonBenet, you just had a bath getting ready for the White's Christmas Party and you have selected your clothes and since your Mom bought you a pack of Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear that you selected on the New York trip, what's the odds you might want to wear a pair of these?

    So I reckon JonBenet wore Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear to the White's Christmas Party. To date Boulder Police Department have never made public the Brand, or The Day Of The Week feature relating to all the underwear removed from JonBenet's underwear drawer.

    Putting it all together: JonBenet is wearing the size-12's and long johns precisely because her size-6 underwear and Pink Pajama Bottoms contained forensic deposits.

    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2020
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

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