Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John.

Discussion in 'JonBenet Ramsey' started by Swirlz, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    113
    There would have to have been three gifts minimum in order for two of them to have been peeked at in the wine cellar.


    And where should these gifts have been? On the dining room table?


    Any gifts to be opened in Charlevoix would have been loaded onto the plane when John went to the airport Christmas afternoon.


    Yes, he went downstairs as in downstairs from the 2nd floor to the 1st. He didn't say he went to the cellar/basement.

    1. LHP would've told Patsy where she hid Burke's knife.
    2. Burke's footprint was not found in the wine cellar. It was a poon print from his Hi-Tek boot.

    What does poon mean? poon Definition. Meaning of poon. OnlineSlangDictionary.com

    noun
    origin
    • Possibly from the French word "putain" meaning "whore."
    Hmm... I do believe Patsy was the Francophile in the house, wasn't she?
     


  2. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    icedtea4me,
    Minimum, sure, but why not more, nothing rules out more, does it?

    Anywhere but the wine-cellar. The wine-cellar is where they were dumped along with the pink barbie-gown and JonBenet to be out of line of sight, i.e. to help with the staging, you know like an abduction ...


    At any point prior to the 25th Dec, Burke could have found the knife, as Patsy might have and simply handed it to him. They aint gonna tell anyone are they?

    Your simply splitting hairs here. Evidence is available that Burke visited the wine-cellar as a commercial mark from his Hi-Tek boot was found there.

    LOL, you just believe what you are told? He didn't say what, really? You expect him to say: Yeah I looked in the wine-cellar for my Birthday gifts?

    Did he take the flashlight with him, was JonBenet by his side, did he bring the gifts back upstairs to play with?

    So Burke says he visited the wine-cellar, his knife was found down in the basement, a mark from his Hi-Tek boot was found there. His touch-dna was deposited on the pink barbie nightgown, his fingerprints are on the pineapple bowl and the teaglass at the breakfast bar. Burke admits returning back downstairs Christmas Day night.

    I reckon there is enough circumstantial evidence to place Burke at the scene of the crime!

    Patsy was a kind of Francophile, she was attempting to acquire the veneer of artistic culture normally lacking in wealthy folks who build large fortunes quickly.

    .
     
  3. proust20

    proust20 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    63
    UKGuy

    According to PR, the size 12s were bought in NYC as a Christmas present for her niece, Jenny. As PR stated they "obviously" were never sent to her. So the question becomes why not. PR said that JB opened the package, and that, as a result, she decided to keep the size 12s, and put them in JB's pantie drawer. But they were not found by LE in that drawer. However, BPD took several pairs of JB's panties as evidence. Certainly, they were very interested in locating the remaining 6 of the days of the week set, given the crime scene in the WC. This they were unable to do.

    Months later, after the Rs had moved back to GA, they suddenly discovered the other 6 pairs in what they claimed was a packing crate. This assertion directly implies that the size 12s were in the Boulder residence somewhere all along; and also infers that the reason they were not found earlier was due to the incompetence of the BPD.

    So where , in fact, were the size 12s? Let's assume that the Rs should not have been foolhardy enough to purchase a duplicate set. Although, perhaps it is unwise to put any deception beyond them. PR's sister could have removed them during her outrageous visit to the home prior to the funeral. But the Bloomis would have to have been extremely well-hidden for that to transpire. The Rs could have taken them with them when they departed from the house right after the murder, as LE did not search them.

    Given this apparent subterfuge, the Rs have had to be aware of the importance of the size 12s. I agree that JR was most likely unaware of them at the time of the murder. This does not seem to be an error that PR should have made, as she knew where all of the rest of JB's panties were. That does leave BR, who'd probably not recognize the difference in sizes, and think that he was being clever by choosing a Wednesday pair. 'Wednesday" would indicate that JB was wearing them on the 25th. However, we do not know what panties, if any, she was wearing at the party, and after the Rs returned home that night.

    I guess this is rather a ramble, which is only meant to say that the size12 Bloomis were somewhere unknown; but later were rather miraculously found by the Rs and sent to LE. I don't see why the Rs felt the need to return them to LE. How did this help with their theory of IDI? Their credibility with LE was already destroyed, and this gesture would not restore it.
     
    Denisedyann, Beltonian and Venom like this.
  4. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    proust20,
    BBM: Nope, Patsy said:
    Atlanta 2000, BPD Interview, excerpt
    So it's left ambiguous as to who opened the size-12's. Although its Patsy by default.

    No size-12's in the house means the Intruder took the size-12's with him and also implies the Intruder redressed JonBenet, which further implies the Intruder knew the size-12's existed and where they were located?

    So the latter account should inform you just how nonsensical it is, hence the size-12's had to be found.


    Atlanta 2000, BPD Interview, excerpt
    The above exchange suggests Patsy in August 2000 knows the size-12's are an issue, but has no credible explanation to offer.

    So whatever the timeline actually is for the size-12's, it appears the Ramsey's were aware where they were located right up until they were returned in the year 2002?

    Otherwise they simply purchased a set online or from Bloomingdale's, removed the Wednesday pair and handed the rest in to the BPD?


    So the credibility lies with the Ramsey's explaining where the size-12's went, and returning them means absolutely no difficult questions to answer.

    Bottom Line: The person who assaulted JonBenet likely removed her size-6 underwear and size-12 underwear in one operation, and together they were removed from the house either by hand or Pamela Paugh on her Supermarket Sweep?

    .
     
  5. Venom

    Venom Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,346
    Likes Received:
    107
    Trophy Points:
    63
    These size 12 panties are baffling. I'm a mom of girls. In my mom brain, if my youngest wanted to keep panties because they liked them (were talking 2-3 sizes too big) I'd most likely pack them into a tote of clothes until they fit. I wouldn't just put them into their underwear drawer and wait years for them to fit. They'd just be in the way taking up space. Anyone else have any thought's on that?
     
  6. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Venom,
    The simple answer is its a fabricated explanation? Its the best Patsy could come up with and indirectly suggests maybe they never really knew what size of underwear JonBenet was actually wearing?

    Note: Patsy never got to see an actual photo of the underwear only a text description that they were Bloomingdale's Wednesday Day Of The Week.

    Since Patsy purchased a size-6 set of Bloomingdale's underwear for JonBenet, then its possible until the interview both parents assumed the underwear description in the Autopsy Report referred to the size-6 pair?

    To date BPD have never released the brand or Days Of The Week relating to the underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer !

    .
     
    Venom likes this.
  7. proust20

    proust20 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    63
    UKGuy

    Interview with PR August 28, 2000

    PR: I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on.
     
  8. dcountmontecristo

    dcountmontecristo Free Thinker

    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    147
    Trophy Points:
    43
    "Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John?"

    simply because there was no logical reason or motive to torture or kill his daughter ... no medical history to prove he has pedophilic disorder... no known records of violence or domestic abuse..
     
  9. proust20

    proust20 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    63
    No one who can seriously be considered as the killer has a record of pedophilia, violence nor domestic abuse.
     
    Emerald2 likes this.
  10. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113

    proust20,
    That is not as factual as:

    Patsy is just sure, i.e. not certain in the excerpt you quote.

    In that interview she tried to cover all the bases with various takes on how the size-12's arrived on JonBenet.

    Once BPD told her: Guess what, we found no size-12's in her underwear drawer., Patsy knew the size-12's were a red flag beyond redemption.

    Anyone who accepts Patsy's claims on the size-12's has to assume JonBenet found a pair of scissors opened the plastic capsule and took out the Wednesday pair, OK, so where did the other six pairs go, why are they not in her underwear drawer?

    I cannot see either parent deliberately dressing JonBenet in the size-12's then removing the remaining pairs as:

    1. They would know the size aspect would represent a major visual red flag.

    2. The remaining pairs missing must mean the Intruder brought them into the house.

    Yet 2. is contradicted by Patsy here:

    Atlanta 2000, BPD Interview, excerpt. Question to Patsy
    Alternatively the Intruder left with a pair of size-6 and six pairs of size-12 Bloomingdale's, so how did the Intruder know where the size-12's were located and why bother wasting time redressing JonBenet?

    The above inconsistent interpretations should help underline why neither parent dressed JonBenet in the size-12's.

    Not unless they were deliberately fitting Burke up for the assault and death of JonBenet along with putting Burke's long johns on JonBenet?

    .
     
  11. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Alright, then. Have it your way. There were 10,000 gifts in the wine cellar!


    So, how about naming a location?



    And have him leave wood shaving all over the place again? Yeah. Right.


    1. It's you're [you are], not your.
    2. It's a poon print and it could've been made without there being a foot inside it.


    Patsy, on the 2nd floor: "Burke, will you go downstairs and bring me the book I was reading, please?"
    Burke: "Okay, Mom."

    Is the book going to be on the 1st/ground floor or the basement?

    And the reason why his brand new Christmas presents would be in the basement and not on the 1st/ground floor is because...?

    Is there any proof that Burke placed his prints on the bowl and glass after the pineapple and tea were placed in them? (BTW... You seem to have forgotten about the April 2001 National Enquirer interview in which Patsy hinted at John having had sexually molested JonBenet Christmas night 1996.)

    Kind of? She named the dog Jacques. She named the statue in the yard Pierre. She named her daughter JonBenet. Kind of? LMFAO!
     
  12. Chocopops

    Chocopops Member

    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    18
    ???
     
  13. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    113
    During The ENQUIRER interview, Patsy admitted she considered and rejected the possibility that John was sexually abusing JonBenet. She openly admitted that during her struggle to defeat ovarian cancer between 1993 and 1994, John and Patsy's sex life suffered. She totally rejects the notion of John abusing JonBenet, but her reasoning is odd.

    She said her mother "came to take care of the kids (when I had cancer). She slept in the other bed in JonBenet's room. I mean, if John was coming in to molest JonBenet, you know that's not going to happen 'cause Grandma was right there every night."

    04032001enquirer.htm

    Patsy doesn't say that John couldn't have sexually molested JonBenet because it wasn't in his character to do so. She said that he couldn't have done it solely due to the presence of Nedra, her mother.

    Was Nedra at the Ramsey home on 25 December 1996, yes or no?
     
    Beltonian and Chocopops like this.
  14. Chocopops

    Chocopops Member

    Messages:
    96
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    18
    icedtea4me likes this.
  15. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    icedtea4me,
    Yes, there might have been more, once unwrapped nobody could recognize them as candidates for the wine-cellar.

    What was placed into the wine-cellar need only be a fraction of what was available, since as you are aware, the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene.

    Patsy's bedroom.
    JonBenet's bedroom.
    Burke's bedroom

    Why not, its just a repeat of previous behavior, anyway LHP was now on holiday.

    2. Is redundant since a mark or (poon) should simply not be there, foot or no foot!

    The 1st/ground or the basement. The issue here is not the semantics but do the book and crime-scene intersect?

    So regardless of the location Burke Ramsey is not going to admit visiting the crime-scene that contains the book, is he?

    Because John Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, and Burke Ramsey all say they put them there. This is only an explanation for those found unwrapped in the wine-cellar not for any other gifts found elsewhere in the house, e.g. one of your 10,000 gifts. Refer to BPD statement on the unwrapped gifts.

    Proof is not required, only existence. Your reference to the April 2001 National Enquirer does not cite fact only speculation attributed to Patsy as to why John might have abused JonBenet, which is a counterfactual to Patsy's actual opinion that it could not have happened.

    Burke Ramsey's prints on the bowl and glass place him in the same location as JonBenet.

    Similarly JonBenet's blood and Burke Ramsey's touch-dna deposited on the pink barbie nightgown link him directly with the wine-cellar crime-scene and to the assault and murder of JonBenet.

    Yah, but your quoted names are simply signs of affection, a bit like mothers naming their children after popular singers or famous scientists, or even God, e.g. Theo, Jesus, Mohammed, etc.

    Patsy was what is known as Noveau Riche, i.e. shorthand for loaded, minted, loadsa money, etc recently acquired but lacking any idea what to do with it.

    I'm LMFAO my head off too as there are different kinds of Francophile: Frankish, Gallic, Celtic, and 21st Century offshoots.


    .
     
  16. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    icedtea4me,
    Patsy is citing the possibility of chronic abuse by John and citing Nedra's presence for this not to be the case.

    Your citing an actual acute sexual assault and asking was Nedra present?

    Patsy is implying John did not perpetrate the acute sexual assault because she has indirect (Nedra) evidence that John did not perpetrate the chronic assault.

    For your delectation here is where Patsy is quizzed about the chronic assault.

    BPD 1998 -Interview with Patsy, excerpt
    Dr. Andy Sirontak, Chief of Denver Children’s Hospital Child Protection Team and Coroner Meyer both agreed that JonBenet had been subjected to prior sexual contact.
     
    Beltonian likes this.
  17. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,698
    Likes Received:
    501
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'll be blunt. The only way I could ever become a BDI is if/when I suffer severe brain damage.
     
    Emerald2 likes this.
  18. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113
    icedtea4me,
    Sure, the difference between you and me, is I do not require brain damage to change my mind just a change in the evidence.

    If you have an RDI theory with evidence that is more consistent than BDI you should post it up.

    The case could be JDI with JR hiding behind BR, as there is more evidence linking BR than there is JR.

    .
     
    Denisedyann and Cottonstar like this.
  19. proust20

    proust20 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    492
    Trophy Points:
    63
    UKGuy

    I do not see the difference between 'sure' and 'certain'.

    "The package had been opened" is the passive voice typical of PR's distancing. The package didn't open itself! PR's use of 'obviously' is rather humorous, given the context.

    "Just go ahead and use them" is confused. JB is donning the size 12s? Why would PR let her? Are we to believe that JB chose the wrong sized Wednesday pair on some random day before Christmas? Well OK- when was this supposed to have occurred? This all makes zero sense. Pathological liars use their lies to manipulate others. It seems that PR enjoyed lying.

    Weren't six pairs of the size 12s found later by the Rs in a packing crate, and sent back to LE? I do not think that there were two sets of days-of-the-week Bloomis; since, that would mean that in the end there were two sets of them missing. This seems over-complicated even for this tangled mess.

    I agree that neither parent would dress JB in the size 12s, at least not intentionally. However, with all the staging, the size 12s could have been removed, and none should be the wiser. One assumes that the too large panties should have been noticed, but in haste, perhaps this element was overlooked. Then again, as JB had been wiped, someone had to pull them down to accomplish this.
     
  20. UKGuy

    UKGuy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    10,829
    Likes Received:
    3,231
    Trophy Points:
    113

    proust20,
    OK, no difference, I was seeking to suggest Patsy claim in your quote was not definitive as she was patently fabricating an account related to the size-12's.

    That's what we were told, from memory - handed in to the DA's office? There could be two sets a replacement set and the actual set purchased by Patsy? Presumably you are referring exclusively to size-12's? So, yes there should not have been two sets of size-12 underwear in the house, otherwise BPD investigators would have found the second set, and none were found.

    John is the candidate for pulling JonBenet's long johns and size-12's down and wiping her clean?

    December 29, 1996, BPD Search Warrant for Boulder, Colorado 15th Street, Excerpt
    Fibers from John's Israeli manufactured shirt were allegedly found on JonBenet's genital region.

    Given what was not done, e.g. removing the size-12's, Burke's long johns, etc and some of the primary errors in staging, suggests the parents were constrained by time and the desire to minimise any contact in forensic terms with JonBenet.

    For those willing to entertain it, this implies the case is BDI with the parents attempting to stage Burke out of the case, and there are examples where both parents can be seen to do this.

    I have come round to accepting the possibility that Burke was more involved with the staging than first assumed, due to his age etc?

    I now think it is possible that Burke staged JonBenet's apparent death, e.g. comatose state, then returned to bed himself?

    The staging would have taken place in JonBenet's bedroom, albeit patently amateurish with little chance of avoiding detection by LEA.

    So it will be this the parents acted on, moving JonBenet downstairs along with various incriminating artifacts?

    The rest we all know about, wine-cellar, 911 call, etc.

    One speculative thought I had was related to Burke asking What did you find? or similar, which I have always found odd, given the gravity of the situation.

    Like he does not know what might be found, i.e. not Did you find JonBenet?

    To explain this how about Burke thinking his staging has worked, and the parents are saying nothing so to keep control of things?

    This might explain Burke's subsequent attitude along with his apparent disconnect from his sisters death?

    At some point in his life he surely must have worked stuff out and realized some of what was going on?
     
    Denisedyann likes this.

Share This Page



  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice