Why doesn't anyone think it could've been John.

[Rain on my Parade]

It is 100% positive that the headblow came first. Not only do a series of medical experts agree, but if you search the literature on head injuries and brain hematomas, there's no way that the brain can bruise and bleed as JonBenet's did if her heart stops pumping. She has the typical petechical hemorrhages that accompany strangulation (and are a sign that blood from the heart could no longer reach the head) The asphyxiation killed her.

The head blow was severe but might not have been fatal (at least not in 2020, don't know about 1996). She would have had a long recovery. OTOH, she might have died anyway.

I wouldn't go with your own impressions on this. I'd trust the experts, particularly the completely neutral pediatric neuropathologist who has years of world-recognized experience in studying the death of brain cells. JBR's brain didn't just die all of a sudden. Her brain cells were in various states of death when her heart stopped. Cells can die while an organism lives on, but dead brain cells are not good.

I work in this field (forensic and psychiatric anthropology) and have asked many people who are not paid experts about this case (all of us were already professionals when JBR died and have followed it for years.) The headblow came first. No one with any basic knowledge of physiology would argue otherwise, IMO.

Why do you think John is the most likely suspect? Is it because he's the adult male in the house (you're using statistics)?

None of your xcenario makes sense to me, as he didn't strangle her first. Someone hit her on the head first (and it's a linear fracture typical of a blow from above, not a fall).

Every single witness has testified there was no pineapple at the White's party.

By contrast, Patsy admits there was pineapple with milk in her walk-in fridge. Why would you put the pineapple earlier? How does that help your scenario?

The only fingerprints on the pineapple are Patsy's and Burke's. And someone (not the Whites - who had no pineapple) fed pineapple to JonBenet.

They left the flashlight on the counter - why wouldn't they leave the pineapple? They would assume the family wanted to eat it. They left a lot of stuff on the counter, for whatever reason.

Why does he bash her head with the flashlight? How does this relate to "needing help"? When exactly is this occurring?

Oh - well, the neighbor heard the scream at around 1 am, so you're speaking of the previous night.

Personally, if both of them had worked on this scheme all night long, I'd think it would have been a better cover-up.

Patsy stays with this forced cover-up till she dies. I guess that part is possible. I've thought about it. She'd have to be a really different sort of mom to do that. For her pedophile husband (in your story).

I like your scenario about the panicked phone call and the initial plan to get the body out of the house - I think that's very likely. Children who murder often have other problems than sociopathy.

Welcome to Websleuths! You'll see that a lot of us are still into this case and always appreciate a chance to discuss more. Have you been to www.acandyrose.com?

10ofRods,
Nice post! You hit on some really important info. The head bash, then the strangulation (linear)! The zonked out cold JB arriving home; yet able to consume pineapple from PR or BR hand. Same hands on her Barbie nightgown. The midnight scream sure to awake the “sleeping people” in the house, if it was heard across the street.
Ransom note written on PR note pad from wet bar. Pen to write RN was put back in it’s container.
Four people went into that house (that we know of). Only 3 remained alive the next morning. And of those 3 not one of them heard a pen drop.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

It is 100% positive that the headblow came first. Not only do a series of medical experts agree, but if you search the literature on head injuries and brain hematomas, there's no way that the brain can bruise and bleed as JonBenet's did if her heart stops pumping. She has the typical petechical hemorrhages that accompany strangulation (and are a sign that blood from the heart could no longer reach the head) The asphyxiation killed her.

The head blow was severe but might not have been fatal (at least not in 2020, don't know about 1996). She would have had a long recovery. OTOH, she might have died anyway.

I wouldn't go with your own impressions on this. I'd trust the experts, particularly the completely neutral pediatric neuropathologist who has years of world-recognized experience in studying the death of brain cells. JBR's brain didn't just die all of a sudden. Her brain cells were in various states of death when her heart stopped. Cells can die while an organism lives on, but dead brain cells are not good.

I work in this field (forensic and psychiatric anthropology) and have asked many people who are not paid experts about this case (all of us were already professionals when JBR died and have followed it for years.) The headblow came first. No one with any basic knowledge of physiology would argue otherwise, IMO.

Why do you think John is the most likely suspect? Is it because he's the adult male in the house (you're using statistics)?

None of your xcenario makes sense to me, as he didn't strangle her first. Someone hit her on the head first (and it's a linear fracture typical of a blow from above, not a fall).

Every single witness has testified there was no pineapple at the White's party.

By contrast, Patsy admits there was pineapple with milk in her walk-in fridge. Why would you put the pineapple earlier? How does that help your scenario?

The only fingerprints on the pineapple are Patsy's and Burke's. And someone (not the Whites - who had no pineapple) fed pineapple to JonBenet.

They left the flashlight on the counter - why wouldn't they leave the pineapple? They would assume the family wanted to eat it. They left a lot of stuff on the counter, for whatever reason.

Why does he bash her head with the flashlight? How does this relate to "needing help"? When exactly is this occurring?

Oh - well, the neighbor heard the scream at around 1 am, so you're speaking of the previous night.

Personally, if both of them had worked on this scheme all night long, I'd think it would have been a better cover-up.

Patsy stays with this forced cover-up till she dies. I guess that part is possible. I've thought about it. She'd have to be a really different sort of mom to do that. For her pedophile husband (in your story).

I like your scenario about the panicked phone call and the initial plan to get the body out of the house - I think that's very likely. Children who murder often have other problems than sociopathy.

Welcome to Websleuths! You'll see that a lot of us are still into this case and always appreciate a chance to discuss more. Have you been to www.acandyrose.com?

10ofRods,
Nice post! You hit on some really important info. The head bash, then the strangulation (linear)! The zonked out cold JB arriving home; yet able to consume pineapple from PR or BR hand. Same hands on her Barbie nightgown. The midnight scream sure to awake the “sleeping people” in the house, if it was heard across the street.
Ransom note written on PR note pad from wet bar. Pen to write RN was put back in it’s container.
Four people went into that house (that we know of). Only 3 remained alive the next morning. And of those 3 not one of them heard a pen drop.

 

[fr brown]

Melody Stanton said she heard nothing unusual the first time she was interviewed. At a later date she said she heard a scream. Still later she said it might not have been an audible scream, just negative energy emanating from JonBenet.

Per Steve Thomas in JonBenet.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Melody Stanton said she heard nothing unusual the first time she was interviewed. At a later date she said she heard a scream. Still later she said it might not have been an audible scream, just negative energy emanating from JonBenet.

Per Steve Thomas in JonBenet.

fr brown,
Do you think perhaps MS changed her story because she was directed to no longer have a memory of that night as was Joe Barnhill?

 

[Boston Corbett]

Why? Mainly because his wife was perceived by many to have been so bat-sh. insane, I suppose. But John Ramsey should always be mentioned in the same breath as the words, "guilty party or parties."

 

[fr brown]

fr brown,
Do you think perhaps MS changed her story because she was directed to no longer have a memory of that night as was Joe Barnhill?

Actually, pbworks says that Stanton made the "might have been negative energy" remark at the same time she reported the scream, but the detective didn't include that in his report.

Apparently her account continued to evolve.

 

[Boston Corbett]

Fr Brown, enjoyed "Oracle of the Dog." Great stuff. Spot on on the believability - the unbelievability, actually - of Fido - or Nox, I think I recall, from the story. So tell us what happened in the Ramsey home that snowy night. What would your creator - Chesterton in this instance, not God the Father - say?

 

[fr brown]

I don't know what Chesterton would say, but I know he would say it better....

In short, I think that Patsy killed JonBenet, probably in a rage, but recently I've come to think that she had been at least flirting with the idea for some time.

I know that Steve Thomas, James Kolar (to begin with at least) and other LE think that John Ramsey slept through the night, then gradually came to suspect the truth that morning. I don't know the reasons which led them to the conclusion that John slept and Patsy was awake, but I assume it was based at least in part on the physical contrasts between their two bathrooms. Certainly their presentations to LE that morning were very different. Why? Did John, showered and freshly-clothed, look at Patsy after their long night of elaborate and collaborative crime scene staging and say, "Yesterday's makeup, yesterday's clothes. You look like you were up all night murdering someone. Perfect. Let's call the police." Implausible. Patsy, no doubt, had planned to undress and get in bed, but she must have run out of time, copying and tweaking her ransom note.

When she realized that John was up early (water hammer?), she hurriedly finished the note, and put it on the floor near the patio door in the hope that John would pick it up and get his prints on it. (He didn't.) John told Ofc. French that Patsy had found the note on or at the foot of the spiral staircase. Ofc. French was confused when neither of them admitted to moving it over to the patio door. For John that would be an early clue that Patsy was involved in his daughter's disappearance. He knew that he hadn't moved the note.

Patsy wrote the ransom note. (See FFJ.) Did John dictate it? Don Foster says that the note is full of Patsy's language, but even if so, it also seems to be full of John's. But John was asleep so how would that work? Did he get up and help write it? If they're going to do that, wouldn't Patsy and John have worked on the visual presentation of their alibi? Ofc. French was instantly suspicious of Patsy's appearance.

After Patsy conked JonBenet on the head, she set about making it look like an intruder/John had committed the crime. Patsy realized that LE would consider whether the crime was domestic. If the genital injuries were deemed chronic, the intruder ruse is out of the window. But even if LE was fooled, John would inevitably come to suspect her. It would be her or him. I think she planted time-delayed clues pointing to John: fibers from his shirt in JonBenet's underwear, a open dictionary with a corner turned up pointing to the word "incest," an open Bible she was careful to distance herself from (while simultaneously hanging it around John's neck), etc.

John and Patsy, by witness accounts, didn't even talk. Perhaps he had hoped that cancer would relieve him of his wife. When that didn't happen, would he start thinking about divorce? Probably. JonBenet's chronic Patsy-caused genital injuries and UTIs would soon come to light. I don't think Patsy could let that happen. For that reason and because of the complexity of the ransom note, I think that Patsy had been giving this crime some thought.

 

[Curiositie]

IMO the only thing John is guilty of doing is covering it up - just as he is still doing today.

 

[Tobiano8th]

IMO the only thing John is guilty of doing is covering it up - just as he is still doing today.

agreed 100%........... even the boulder police department and its former detectives (who've written RDI books) think this too................ i'm thinking the covering up is all "after the fact" i.e. he learned about it when patsy "found" the note. i could be wrong on this assumption though

 

[Tobiano8th]

IMO the only thing John is guilty of doing is covering it up - just as he is still doing today.

agreed 100%........... even the boulder police department and its former detectives (who've written RDI books) think this too................ i'm thinking the covering up is all "after the fact" i.e. he learned about it when patsy "found" the note. i could be wrong on this assumption though

 

[Tobiano8th]

duplicate post

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I know that Steve Thomas, James Kolar (to begin with at least) and other LE think that John Ramsey slept through the night, then gradually came to suspect the truth that morning. I don't know the reasons which led them to the conclusion that John slept and Patsy was awake, but I assume it was based at least in part on the physical contrasts between their two bathrooms. Certainly their presentations to LE that morning were very different. Why? Did John, showered and freshly-clothed, look at Patsy after their long night of elaborate and collaborative crime scene staging and say, "Yesterday's makeup, yesterday's clothes. You look like you were up all night murdering someone. Perfect. Let's call the police." Implausible. Patsy, no doubt, had planned to undress and get in bed, but she must have run out of time, copying and tweaking her ransom note.

fr brown,
This all seems very plausible except for one detail. How did BR know so much about the crime details?

 

[Swirlz]

If he knows anything, people say it's proof of guilt. If he acts like he doesn't know anything, people say he's pretending not to know anything because he's guilty.

 

[fr brown]

fr brown,
This all seems very plausible except for one detail. How did BR know so much about the crime details?

Like what? He said, iirc, something like, "she got hit on the head or he had a knife." When did he say this? Before anyone else knew she had a fractured skull? Before the tabloids? (I just checked it: he said it on 1-8-97.)

And I don't know about you, but my kid has ears like a bat. So there's that.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Like what? He said, iirc, something like, "she got hit on the head or he had a knife." When did he say this? Before anyone else knew she had a fractured skull? Before the tabloids?

fr brown,
I would start here:
Susan Stine overhears Burke and Doug discuss JonBenet's death, circa Dec 29. 1996.
Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.

Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.”

 

[fr brown]

fr brown,
I would start here:
Susan Stine overhears Burke and Doug discuss JonBenet's death, circa Dec 29. 1996.
Stine appeared to Kaempfer to have been disturbed by the conversation and had listened to Burke and Doug talk about how JonBenét had been strangled. Based upon Kaempfer’s statement, it appeared that Stine had over overheard the boys discussing whether or not manual strangulation had been involved in JonBenét’s death.

Stine described the conversation as being “very impersonal,” and it struck her that the discussion about the details of JonBenét’s death was like the boys were “talking about a TV show.”

Like everybody here discusses it, you mean? Was Doug Stine involved in the death too? No, don't tell me....

You'll have to carry on without me.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Like everybody here discusses it, you mean? Was Doug Stine involved in the death too? No, don't tell me....

You'll have to carry on without me.

We will never know will we?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

You've probably all already seen this picture, but it's creepy and I think it shows that Patsy had quite a few issues, that's for sure. View attachment 186836

I reread this thread and just saw this post. I have never seen these photos before. It reminded me of my own childhood. My folks brought me up to be Miss America. I had to sit with them on the couch every year and we had to vote (whom we thought), would win. I was a rebel; I never got it right. Aside from that, I always wanted to be a Ballerina but according to my mom dancers never won the contest. It was my mother’s lifelong desire to play the piano. But of coarse you could win playing the piano. So I took 4 years of piano. I waited until I was 18 and started taking ballet. I was also sexually abused by my father. My mother did nothing to protect me. Where was “I”, was her infamous line! My reason for bringing this up is two fold. PR was obviously living her life vicariously through JB. Just as my own mother did. You never know what goes on behind closed doors.
I feel especially close to this case. JB and I had similar upbringings. I am an artist and drew a picture on the day JB was murdered. I titled it ‘Rain on my Parade’. I did not know about her death on December 26, 1996.
I had always wished when I was young that somebody would step in and protect me. Nobody ever did. It’s okay because it has made me a warrior. Definitely not here for sympathy. Just a longing wish of justice served for JonBenét.

 

[Badsleuth]

The handwriting and the analysis on what type of person would have written it convince me it was PR. She was psychologically unbalanced-No evidence JR was. He ran a large outfit-she ran to the make-up store for Jon Benet.

You don't wake up at 52 and become a Garroting murdering child molester when there has been no evidence of even inappropriate behavior or speak in regards to females your entire life.

Im just wondering if JR will give a deathbed confession that PR did it when the time comes. It's the only way we will ever know. Also if he did it, he is the best actor on the planet.