Why I will never believe any IDI did it theory

Linda Hoffman Pugh has made some disturbing comments about the parenting skills of JB. She was there and testified before the GJ.
I always refer back to those 13 jurors and the four True Bills they agreed on…
JB was stressed the month of December. Her bedwetting returned and she was being SA. Did this have anything to do with her responsibilities as a six year old?

Pugh made a lot of unsubstantiated claims, in addition to filing suits against the Ramseys and Alex Hunter. Both of those suits were dismissed because she couldn’t prove her claims.

Pugh also made the false claim that she had to turn over handwriting to LE, but Patsy didn’t have to.

Dr. Meyer found no evidence of prior SA of JonBenet.


I think it’s important to criticize how Patsy inflicted the demands on a 6 year old child. IMO those representations were sexualizing JonBenet. There was nothing wholesome about them IMO. Not from the choices Patsy made for JB and consequently she was being criticized by her circle of friends. Notably the Fernies and the Whites.

The Whites had nothing critical to say about the Ramseys until LE told both parties the other party suspected them in the killing. Then, they turned on one another. Not uncommon in that sort of situation.
Living vicariously through a child can reap loads of damage to that child. There are many accounts of young lives lost for a chance at stardom by looking the other way. This is not uncommon.
But it can also propel a parent into inappropriate and impossible demands on a child. IMO Patsy was walking a very thin line here,
and living with enormous stresses herself. December 1996 everything was escalating…
Living vicariously through a child can be harmful. Or, it doesn’t have to be.

I agree Patsy was living under stress, having recently gone into remission for a type of cancer that frequently returns.
 
Linda Hoffman Pugh has made some disturbing comments about the parenting skills of JB. She was there and testified before the GJ.
I always refer back to those 13 jurors and the four True Bills they agreed on…
JB was stressed the month of December. Her bedwetting returned and she was being SA. Did this have anything to do with her responsibilities as a six year old?

I think it’s important to criticize how Patsy inflicted the demands on a 6 year old child. IMO those representations were sexualizing JonBenet. There was nothing wholesome about them IMO. Not from the choices Patsy made for JB and consequently she was being criticized by her circle of friends. Notably the Fernies and the Whites.
Living vicariously through a child can reap loads of damage to that child. There are many accounts of young lives lost for a chance at stardom by looking the other way. This is not uncommon.
But it can also propel a parent into inappropriate and impossible demands on a child. IMO Patsy was walking a very thin line here,
and living with enormous stresses herself. December 1996 everything was escalating…
Yes. And LHP was not the only one who worked for the Ramseys who made comments about parenting skills (or lack thereof). When you work for someone, spending time in their home you observe a lot of things that go one behind closed doors that others may not be privy to.

Linda Wilcox another former housekeeper whose responsibilities also morphed into taking care of the children in addition to her other responsibilities for which she was hired, noted that PR looked at her children like projects. First it was BR and that JBR was virtually ignored until she got to the age where she had something to offer, namely, the pageants. She also noted that when PR's attention shifted from BR to JBR his bed wetting issues ceased. And not long thereafter, JBR started having the same issues. JBR wore her brother's hand me down clothes until she got older and PR wanted to dress her up. We know money wasn't an issue, I find that to be odd.

I can understand as a young child the bedwetting. I can also understand it escalating during the illness of PR. But LW was with them for 2 1/2 years and JBR had bedwetting issues that entire time. Connecting all the dots of accounts from those in the know, her bedwetting issues never ceased. The only thing that changed was the frequency and severity. So we have a period of 4 years of bedwetting that in the last months of her life had escalated again, to the point of it being almost every night and at times every night. Why this was not addressed in a more proactive way is a question that remains. Her pediatrician apparently did not recommend seeing a specialist, and PR just resorted to plastic sheets. She downplayed it and so did JR. Those who knew them and JBR knew that it was an issue and that it was becoming more of an issue. Her toileting issues in general were well known, and were not being addressed by her parents. I still find it not only odd but somewhat alarming that there supposedly were conversations with Dr. Beuf about inappropriate touching, and yet JBR would still just holler for anyone nearby to wipe her after using the bathroom. Hello?

Suzanne the former babysitter / nanny was the one who noted how JBR had changed from this fun loving child into someone who had to be concerned about her weight. Her teachers had noticed the change in her demeanor from a confident child to clingy, more timid and shy about a month before her death. The circle of friends who were concerned about PR's OTT and increasing obsession with the pageant stuff were her fellow mom friends from JBR's school, which included Barb Fernie. And Priscilla White too. These are the friends who were closest. That says a lot IMO.

And I also agree that the stresses that PR was dealing with were a lot, and ignored by JR. PR was turning 40, often a big deal for women who are so concerned with looks and outward appearances. She had also been catapulted into early menopause by her illness and subsequent total hysterectomy. We know by accounts from those who knew her that she had concerns about JR having a wandering eye, he did after all cheat on his first wife.

There were signs that something was going on with JBR in the month before her death. She was showing signs of stress and so was PR. I think the clashes that she was having with JBR were more significant than PR admitted. The Paugh women wanted JBR to go all the way with pageant life.
 
Yes. And LHP was not the only one who worked for the Ramseys who made comments about parenting skills (or lack thereof). When you work for someone, spending time in their home you observe a lot of things that go one behind closed doors that others may not be privy to.

Linda Wilcox another former housekeeper whose responsibilities also morphed into taking care of the children in addition to her other responsibilities for which she was hired, noted that PR looked at her children like projects. First it was BR and that JBR was virtually ignored until she got to the age where she had something to offer, namely, the pageants. She also noted that when PR's attention shifted from BR to JBR his bed wetting issues ceased. And not long thereafter, JBR started having the same issues. JBR wore her brother's hand me down clothes until she got older and PR wanted to dress her up. We know money wasn't an issue, I find that to be odd.

I can understand as a young child the bedwetting. I can also understand it escalating during the illness of PR. But LW was with them for 2 1/2 years and JBR had bedwetting issues that entire time. Connecting all the dots of accounts from those in the know, her bedwetting issues never ceased. The only thing that changed was the frequency and severity. So we have a period of 4 years of bedwetting that in the last months of her life had escalated again, to the point of it being almost every night and at times every night. Why this was not addressed in a more proactive way is a question that remains. Her pediatrician apparently did not recommend seeing a specialist, and PR just resorted to plastic sheets. She downplayed it and so did JR. Those who knew them and JBR knew that it was an issue and that it was becoming more of an issue. Her toileting issues in general were well known, and were not being addressed by her parents. I still find it not only odd but somewhat alarming that there supposedly were conversations with Dr. Beuf about inappropriate touching, and yet JBR would still just holler for anyone nearby to wipe her after using the bathroom. Hello?

Suzanne the former babysitter / nanny was the one who noted how JBR had changed from this fun loving child into someone who had to be concerned about her weight. Her teachers had noticed the change in her demeanor from a confident child to clingy, more timid and shy about a month before her death. The circle of friends who were concerned about PR's OTT and increasing obsession with the pageant stuff were her fellow mom friends from JBR's school, which included Barb Fernie. And Priscilla White too. These are the friends who were closest. That says a lot IMO.

And I also agree that the stresses that PR was dealing with were a lot, and ignored by JR. PR was turning 40, often a big deal for women who are so concerned with looks and outward appearances. She had also been catapulted into early menopause by her illness and subsequent total hysterectomy. We know by accounts from those who knew her that she had concerns about JR having a wandering eye, he did after all cheat on his first wife.

There were signs that something was going on with JBR in the month before her death. She was showing signs of stress and so was PR. I think the clashes that she was having with JBR were more significant than PR admitted. The Paugh women wanted JBR to go all the way with pageant life.
Agree with you with my whole heart!
If everyone would take off their rose colored glasses and just accept the realities of this family.
IMO this family was in some sort of major crisis…
Was it the SA? Was it one issue or many converging issues?

The Ramsey’s Christmas Party on the 23rd was supposed to be filmed by Charles Kuralt of CBS.(Nationality known reporter human issue stories for CBS “On the Road”) Bill McReynolds “Santa” was a friend of CK and supposedly arranged to be interviewed by him for a nationaly aired segment about Santa Claus. That was the reason for that party at the Ramsey’s. The interview was supposed to be at their home. But CK never showed up.., can you even imagine the disappointment level of PR?
Escalation…
 
Pugh made a lot of unsubstantiated claims, in addition to filing suits against the Ramseys and Alex Hunter. Both of those suits were dismissed because she couldn’t prove her claims.

Pugh also made the false claim that she had to turn over handwriting to LE, but Patsy didn’t have to.

Dr. Meyer found no evidence of prior SA of JonBenet.




The Whites had nothing critical to say about the Ramseys until LE told both parties the other party suspected them in the killing. Then, they turned on one another. Not uncommon in that sort of situation.

Living vicariously through a child can be harmful. Or, it doesn’t have to be.

I agree Patsy was living under stress, having recently gone into remission for a type of cancer that frequently returns.
IMO I find any comments made criticizing lawsuits by LHP to be patently absurd considering the lengths JR has gone through to obstruct justice in this case. LHP has every legal right to pursue what she felt the need to. She is a valuable witness that one could convincingly believe the GJ heard loud and clear given their conclusions.

JonBenet was the victim of SA. This is not speculation. The autopsy findings are facts based on the evidence. Numerous professionals in the field of forensic science and pediatrics cannot be disputed.
Your comment about Dr Meyers conclusion is not accurate. On the record he has refused to publicly state his opinion about this issue, however he did consult experts in this field because of his findings.
 
JonBenet was the victim of SA. This is not speculation. The autopsy findings are facts based on the evidence. Numerous professionals in the field of forensic science and pediatrics cannot be disputed.
Your comment about Dr Meyers conclusion is not accurate. On the record he has refused to publicly state his opinion about this issue, however he did consult experts in this field because of his findings.
RSBM

She was SA at the time of her murder. No one disputes that. But read what Meyer said about her hymen. It was ruptured but still visibly attached in one area. Meyer did not note any sign of former SA.
 
RSBM

She was SA at the time of her murder. No one disputes that. But read what Meyer said about her hymen. It was ruptured but still visibly attached in one area. Meyer did not note any sign of former SA.
But he was suspicious enough and thorough enough to call in experts to further and more accurately assess. Those experts concluded there was prior, chronic SA.

Just as with the brain injury, Dr. Meyer knew his limits with his areas of knowledge and expertise. This is why you bring in consultants who are experts in fields where your knowledge has limits. Dr. Meyer acted appropriately by calling in experts. It does not mean his initial notes were incorrect, but obviously further examination for conclusive determination was needed.
 
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IMO I find any comments made criticizing lawsuits by LHP to be patently absurd considering the lengths JR has gone through to obstruct justice in this case. LHP has every legal right to pursue what she felt the need to. She is a valuable witness that one could convincingly believe the GJ heard loud and clear given their conclusions.

JonBenet was the victim of SA. This is not speculation. The autopsy findings are facts based on the evidence. Numerous professionals in the field of forensic science and pediatrics cannot be disputed.
Your comment about Dr Meyers conclusion is not accurate. On the record he has refused to publicly state his opinion about this issue, however he did consult experts in this field because of his findings.
Agree. LHP was the first person the Ramseys named as a suspect along with JR’s former colleague Jeff Merrick. Both were cleared early on, but the Ramseys continued to cast aspersions on both of them.

Like previous housekeepers before her, LHP’s workload was significant, and had morphed into caring for the kids in addition to the duties she was hired for because PR had other priorities. She sued to protect her reputation which Team Ramsey was damaging. This also included complete falsehoods about her husband and daughter being involved in “adult activities” that a Ramsey friend was passing around.

If we’re going to talk about lawsuits, how many lawsuits has JR filed?
 
But he was suspicious enough and thorough enough to call in experts to further and more accurately assess. Those experts concluded there was prior, chronic SA.

Just as with the brain injury, Dr. Meyer knew his limits with his areas of knowledge and expertise. This is why you bring in consultants who are experts in fields where your knowledge has limits. Dr. Meyer acted appropriately by calling in experts. It does not mean his initial notes were incorrect, but obviously further examination for conclusive determination was needed.
That begs the question of why Mitch Morrisey said there were no pathologists that could testify to the grand jury that there had been previous SA.
 
Agree. LHP was the first person the Ramseys named as a suspect along with JR’s former colleague Jeff Merrick. Both were cleared early on, but the Ramseys continued to cast aspersions on both of them.

Like previous housekeepers before her, LHP’s workload was significant, and had morphed into caring for the kids in addition to the duties she was hired for because PR had other priorities. She sued to protect her reputation which Team Ramsey was damaging. This also included complete falsehoods about her husband and daughter being involved in “adult activities” that a Ramsey friend was passing around.

If we’re going to talk about lawsuits, how many lawsuits has JR filed?
I don’t know how many JR filed but I know LHP’s cases were dismissed.
 
I don’t know how many JR filed but I know LHP’s cases were dismissed.
LHP filed two lawsuits. One was against the Ramseys for defamation in their book suggesting she committed the murder. I've not read the book, so I cannot speak to what they said. But the judge ruled that PR only accused her of acting suspiciously when it was still thought to be a kidnapping and not a murder, so not defamation based upon an accusation of murder and dismissed the case.

The 2nd lawsuit was for her to be able to use her testimony in front of the GJ and her experience testifying to the GJ in her book. A State court actually agreed with her argument and allowed the case to move forward. A Federal judge dismissed the case citing that the laws pertaining to secrecy of the GJ superseded her rights to go public with that information.

The Ramseys on the other hand have filed at least 9 lawsuits against various media outlets, etc. for daring to publish stories that dare to suggest their guilt, as well as perhaps most notably Steve Thomas for his book. None of these lawsuits ever went to trial, they have always settled for money. As a result, nothing has ever been forced to be retracted. Steve Thomas's book is still available in its original form, the CBS documentary series can still be viewed in its original form, etc. Makes you wonder what the motive was to sue. $$$$.
 
Having a cell phone was both pretty uncommon and considered an “extra” back then. I could absolutely see someone not bothering to replace it for a while because it would have been expensive and a pain and most people just didn’t use them that much. I had a cell back then and used it about 10 minutes a month. That was normal.
Yes!
 
RE: Cell phone - I could absolutely see someone not replacing one immediately for the very reasons you listed too.
YES!!

It's the adage "the preponderance of evidence" that makes me question it. IE: "loses" the cell phone only 1 month prior to the murder, thus no cell phone records for December for John, The broken window not being fixed, in spite of living in a place that gets really cold in the winter - it was winter - and your son plays down there with his train/s, Burke being "asleep the whole time", JB being "zonked out" and asleep and having to be carried to bed, contradicted by Burke himself saying she was awake and walked in and walked upstairs, the contradictions, and to sum up - the perfect answers for literally every detail that casts just enough doubt to avoid an outright arrest, while at the same time stinking to high heaven. Considering all of the above, the "yes" quickly changes to "NO" - not buying it.

In so many words, I believe most of the police, including FBI, came to the same conclusion.
However, to be 100% fair, there was also police and FBI (apparently) that still believe IDI...

Having various police split on theories --- My only response has to be: Tip my cap to those giving advice that kept the Ramseys from going to trial. Apparently, it really was the perfect murder. I mean that sincerely, I'm not being snarky.

We all want answers but we're not going to get any. So, what is left? Occam's Razor. On the surface, I buy it. Digging deeper, I don't buy it. Occam's Razor.
 
RE: Cell phone - I could absolutely see someone not replacing one immediately for the very reasons you listed too.
YES!!

It's the adage "the preponderance of evidence" that makes me question it. IE: "loses" the cell phone only 1 month prior to the murder, thus no cell phone records for December for John, The broken window not being fixed, in spite of living in a place that gets really cold in the winter - it was winter - and your son plays down there with his train/s, Burke being "asleep the whole time", JB being "zonked out" and asleep and having to be carried to bed, contradicted by Burke himself saying she was awake and walked in and walked upstairs, the contradictions, and to sum up - the perfect answers for literally every detail that casts just enough doubt to avoid an outright arrest, while at the same time stinking to high heaven. Considering all of the above, the "yes" quickly changes to "NO" - not buying it.

In so many words, I believe most of the police, including FBI, came to the same conclusion.
However, to be 100% fair, there was also police and FBI (apparently) that still believe IDI...

Having various police split on theories --- My only response has to be: Tip my cap to those giving advice that kept the Ramseys from going to trial. Apparently, it really was the perfect murder. I mean that sincerely, I'm not being snarky.

We all want answers but we're not going to get any. So, what is left? Occam's Razor. On the surface, I buy it. Digging deeper, I don't buy it. Occam's Razor.
How convenient that after having had his personal cell phone for "years" he loses it 1 month before JBR's murder. In her 1998 police interview, PR discusses the cell phones. It's interesting. After first saying they each had one then apparently remembering JR had supposedly "lost" his, she then gives a completely nonsensical response

"In Patsy’s 1998 interview with Haney, when he asks her about the phones they owned (at the time), she says “John had a cell phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at Christmas, little teeny one".

"PATSY: He had had one and he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years ago, and he — I think he lost and then — anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic one at, what's that store — that music video store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of those, Sound Advice or — and I had it — had it sitting on the window ledge charging and he walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will just take this one. And I think meanwhile, Denise, his secretary had ordered him a new phone".

Word salad much?

And JR's story about breaking the window is just bizarre.
 
How convenient that after having had his personal cell phone for "years" he loses it 1 month before JBR's murder. In her 1998 police interview, PR discusses the cell phones. It's interesting. After first saying they each had one then apparently remembering JR had supposedly "lost" his, she then gives a completely nonsensical response

"In Patsy’s 1998 interview with Haney, when he asks her about the phones they owned (at the time), she says “John had a cell phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at Christmas, little teeny one".

"PATSY: He had had one and he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years ago, and he — I think he lost and then — anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic one at, what's that store — that music video store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of those, Sound Advice or — and I had it — had it sitting on the window ledge charging and he walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will just take this one. And I think meanwhile, Denise, his secretary had ordered him a new phone".

Word salad much?

And JR's story about breaking the window is just bizarre.
To me what stands out there is not so much the word salad but the details it contains:

When did you get the phone? "at Christmas" (Christmas time, around then - ok)
What kind was it? "Panasonic"
Where did you get it? "Sound Tracks or Sound Advice - video store near the Boulder"
Where was it when John got it? "sitting on the window ledge"
Why was it on the window ledge? "charging"

Lots of detail there. Meanwhile, when it comes to questions of what clothes she "changed JB into" before bed or any number of other critical questions: She becomes dumb as a fence post and doesn't remember, etc..... and the police questioning very rarely pins her down and forces her to answer a question with a "yes" or "no" answer.

She's clear on the phone thing - she and John literally use the same verbage about JB being "zonked out" when they got home....John really oversold that "zonked out" thing in his interview. Must be a very important detail there that we're all missing - otherwise, no need to oversell that point and both of them using the exact same language of "zonked out"

Makes me think there's something more to the two stops they made after leaving the party but before they got home. But, assuming something did happen in that timeframe - you can't explain the pineapple in her stomach which we know she had to have eaten after the party.... maddening. Speaking of pineapple and police questioning, it's the only time they really had her in a corner.... "How do you explain your prints and Burkes prints on the bowl of pineapple and the tea glass on the kitchen table" (paraphrasing) - and she had no answers for that and became angry --- and the police let it go.... unreal. (unless I'm missing something or leaving something out - I'm not sure they ever kept at her about that point)

Nah, I'm not buying it. At all.
 

To me what stands out there is not so much the word salad but the details it contains:

When did you get the phone? "at Christmas" (Christmas time, around then - ok)
What kind was it? "Panasonic"
Where did you get it? "Sound Tracks or Sound Advice - video store near the Boulder"
Where was it when John got it? "sitting on the window ledge"
Why was it on the window ledge? "charging"

Lots of detail there. Meanwhile, when it comes to questions of what clothes she "changed JB into" before bed or any number of other critical questions: She becomes dumb as a fence post and doesn't remember, etc..... and the police questioning very rarely pins her down and forces her to answer a question with a "yes" or "no" answer.

She's clear on the phone thing - she and John literally use the same verbage about JB being "zonked out" when they got home....John really oversold that "zonked out" thing in his interview. Must be a very important detail there that we're all missing - otherwise, no need to oversell that point and both of them using the exact same language of "zonked out"

Makes me think there's something more to the two stops they made after leaving the party but before they got home. But, assuming something did happen in that timeframe - you can't explain the pineapple in her stomach which we know she had to have eaten after the party.... maddening. Speaking of pineapple and police questioning, it's the only time they really had her in a corner.... "How do you explain your prints and Burkes prints on the bowl of pineapple and the tea glass on the kitchen table" (paraphrasing) - and she had no answers for that and became angry --- and the police let it go.... unreal. (unless I'm missing something or leaving something out - I'm not sure they ever kept at her about that point)

Nah, I'm not buying it. At all.
The word salad part is that the phone that is charging is the one Patsy bought for herself. JR walks in and finds it, I guess thinks it’s for him, but Patsy says, “okay fine, I will just take this one”. That makes no sense. She bought it for herself. Did she buy another one for John? She doesn’t say. It’s completely nonsensical.

JR’s first story, told to 2 separate police officers on the morning of 12/26 was that everyone was awake when they got home and that he read to JB before bed time. We also know BR was awake, and PR was also awake doing last minute packing. Someone made the pineapple snack during this timeframe.

But then they had to change the story because the timeline with estimated TOD and intruder didn’t work. They needed to be sound asleep. But, oops! Forgot about the pineapple. John oversold the zonked story because it wasn’t true. He isn’t nearly as clever as he thinks he is. And he just assumes everyone will believe him. We don’t.
 
The word salad part is that the phone that is charging is the one Patsy bought for herself. JR walks in and finds it, I guess thinks it’s for him, but Patsy says, “okay fine, I will just take this one”. That makes no sense. She bought it for herself. Did she buy another one for John? She doesn’t say. It’s completely nonsensical.

JR’s first story, told to 2 separate police officers on the morning of 12/26 was that everyone was awake when they got home and that he read to JB before bed time. We also know BR was awake, and PR was also awake doing last minute packing. Someone made the pineapple snack during this timeframe.

But then they had to change the story because the timeline with estimated TOD and intruder didn’t work. They needed to be sound asleep. But, oops! Forgot about the pineapple. John oversold the zonked story because it wasn’t true. He isn’t nearly as clever as he thinks he is. And he just assumes everyone will believe him. We don’t.
FINALLY, I have an answer. *I KNEW* something was "off" there with the whole "arriving home" story but it never dawned on me about the estimated TOD not working. Oh wow....... See? This is why I defer to you. :)
 

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